Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

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Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #1

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Hi gang !

Once again, while showering, something came to mind...

William Lane Craig is famous for his re-working of the old Kalam Cosmological argument for the existence of God. Here it is in a nut-shell for those who might need a bit of a refresher. Craig states the Kalam cosmological argument as a brief syllogism, most commonly rendered as follows:

______________

The argument:

P1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
P2. The universe began to exist;

Therefore:

C1. The universe has a cause.

From the conclusion of the initial syllogism, he appends a further premise and conclusion based upon ontological analysis of the properties of the cause:

P3. The universe has a cause;
P4. If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;

Therefore:

C. An uncased, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.

____________

This thread wants to take a good look at P1. that is, the very first premise of the argument that states :"Whatever begins to exist has a cause."

As in all arguments, if we accept that this premise is true, we move on to the next premise, and so on, to it's conclusion that must follow from one to the next without any gaps.

Now, if we cannot demonstrate that a premise in the argument is TRUE, then the argument may be VALID, but not sound. The conclusion we get from an argument is just as weak as it's weakest link, so to speak.

So, what about the first premise?

Is it TRUE that "Whatever begins to exist has a cause"?

I am a skeptic at heart, so I am suspicious about that.


Let me give some preliminary reasons, that I got while showering with my Spiderman "Spidey Sense" Soft Soap ®... ( very refreshing ) :


1. Right off the bat, I would have my skeptical spidey sense tingling by the sentence itself. It seems to imply that some things begin to exist, and that others may not begin to exist. I'm not too sure what that means... What does it MEAN to say that something has a "beginning" to it's existence? What does it MEAN to say that not all things begin to exist? Which kinds of things begin to exist, and which kinds of things don't begin to exist? Now, we need rigorous definitions, don't we? Anyone has those? I sure don't. The more that I look, the more confused I get.

2. It doesn't say what hasn't begun to exist. But I suspect that the case is very well chosen. Some people might protest that there is a difference between saying that something doesn't begin to exist and saying that something hasn't yet begun to exist. We are now having to make a distinction that is very subtly grammatical.

3. Of course, if something has not yet begun to exist, it cannot yet exist. But if we are trying to prove that something has caused the universe, it at least has to exist in some way. Otherwise, the argument... is weird.

4. The Kalam is very old.. It wasn't always phrased the way that WLC does. In fact, WLC has introduced the word "begins to" ... because before we could ask "Who caused God?". So, it seems that Craig wants to save the argument by replacing "exists" by "begins to exist". If only GOD doesn't "begin to exist", then I see special pleading going on.

5. Craig says this about the nature of "God's" infinity:

"God's infinity is, as it were, qualitative, not quantitative. It means that God is metaphysically necessary, morally perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, and so on."

In other words, when Craig uses the term "infinite" to refer to a being who doesn't begin, he isn't talking about numbers, but characteristics. I "began to exist" in the middle 50's. See how that's a number? I could have started counting the years of my "existence" at 0, or 1, or some other NUMBER, but it's weird to think that we don't COUNT things without numbers.. but if there are no NUMBERS, to me, it's weird to say that something began or didn't begin. Time is a series of numbers, one after another.. seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, years.. eons.. we count those, because they are NUMBERED. If it can't be counted, I don't know how it can be called "time", and if it isn't "time" we are talking about.. causation seems a bit weird to be talking about.. and to begin.. implies "time"... so again.. very weird.

So, when I read "Whatever BEGINS to exist.." I think "What on earth is Craig talking about"? A quality or a measurable instance of time? If the word BEGINS is an instance of time that is measurable for everything ELSE but "God", this is special pleading once again.

6. The second part.. "A CAUSE" ... this is the really REALLY weird part.. and I will keep it short. You see, Craig doesn't like infinite regresses.. so, the universe can't be it's own cause due to an infinite regress.. what cause the cause of the cause.. and so on.. Physical matter NOT of this universe can't be the cause because.. what's the cause of THAT.. and so on.. more infinite regress. The very ODD thing about Craig's solution, "God", is that it is eternal in the past.. In other words, it seems to "cause the cause of the cause of the cause.. " in an infinite regress. To me, and this is just preliminary thinking, he solves one infinity.. "Cause" with another infinity "God".


Just some thoughts.. I have my doubts about the first premise.

_____________

So, here are the questions for debate:


1. Is it true that things that have a beginning have a cause?
2. How something hasn't begun to exist, continue to exist?

_____________


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Post #251

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 249 by Willum]

I'm sorry, but I'm still not following you a bit here. Do you think we should maybe move the discussion on to something else? As I say, I just have no idea what you point is in all of this.

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Post #252

Post by Willum »

[Replying to hoghead1]

If Hume were exposed to modern science, his writing and theory would change. It ain't complicated.
Just like the least of doctors today is greater than the greatest of doctors in the 18th century, because the least today knows basics the greatest couldn't.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Post #253

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 251 by Willum]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't see any relevance in your comment, to my point about causality. You have not substantiated your claim, in the first place. So, again, I say that I have no idea what your point is and suggest we move to another topic.

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Post #254

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 252 by hoghead1]

Well, it is one thing to claim you don't understand fifty times, it is quite another to try to say what you don't understand.

That Hume can be, excuse me, IS wrong? That's like complaining Newton is wrong. Newton is unquestionably the greatest scientist and applied mathematician ever, but in the light of modern physics, his laws of motion required correction.

Science marches on.
I always find it interesting that, if Newton weren't so busy trying to prove absolute motion, because that was a divine requirement, he likely would have discovered Relativity, and who knows what more. Not only that, Newton would have had it solved in week or so.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Post #255

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 253 by Willum]

Again, I find you making unsubstantiated claims and presenting material that is irrelevant to the point I was making about causality.

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Post #256

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 254 by hoghead1]

Again. I have explained myself. I think I've just wiped your argument out so completely you don't know where to begin.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Post #257

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 250 by hoghead1]
hoghead1 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I'm still not following you a bit here. Do you think we should maybe move the discussion on to something else? As I say, I just have no idea what you point is in all of this.
Yeah, we noticed.

The point was.. A brilliant mind like David Hume would have used the new data that scientists have today. Hume would not have been stuck so much with those complex ideas about science. He was quite brilliant.

Just like Einstein... who KNOWS what Einstein would be talking about with the new information we have since he DIED.

What aren't you getting?
Maybe we can help.

It's not all that complex a point.

By the way, what WAS your point about causality?
I'm not up to date.





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Post #258

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sorry, this redundant post was a computer generated glitch..

Please remove
Last edited by Blastcat on Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #259

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 231 by hoghead1]


[center]
The scientific proofs of "God"
Part One[/center]

hoghead1 wrote:
And Craig has simply noted the fact that science affirms the universe has a beginning.
"That science affirms"

You might want to bring some evidence for that rather GLOBAL remark.
All of science does?

Really?

Or is it really.. SOME scientists do?

It's a bit difficult for scientists to explain such COMPLEX matters as the physics of the origin of the universe to us lay people. They have to translate all of that math and physics and raw data. Hoi polloi are not equipped to DO that work, so they dumb it way down for the rest of us.

The attempt is to translate into a different LANGUAGE than very complex math and very complex physics.

And of course, we lose much in those translations.

Craig isn't a scientist. He is an apologist.
Craig is not a science teacher. He is a preacher.
Craig is not who I would "Go to" if I wanted to learn about cosmology or any other kinds of science.

You can get your science education from him if you really want to.
Free will, and all.... But I heard that when it comes to physics, the eminent Dr. Craig disagrees with Einstein. If true, that would represent a very interesting bit of science. i wonder if Craig has written SCIENTIFIC papers and how much scientific agreement he has with his ideas about physics, and time.. He got a PHD for his work on time, as I recall. It wasn't a degree in science though... I think it was "religious studies", instead.. or theology.. but not science of any kind.

Don't get too excited by the WORDS the real scientists use to describe the science. We lay people get the CLIFF NOTES only.

And we always have to remember that the REAL job of the scientists is DOING THE SCIENCE, not translation. Craig want's to stand if for our science communicator. I'll take him to be an expert in APOLOGETICS, but not science, and not science communication, such as a Bill Bryson, Richard Dawkins, and perhaps, Stephen Hawking.

Ken Ham is considered by some to be the "Go to" guy for biology and geophysics, too. I'm just as unimpressed. And I do lump those two together. Craig is a bit more sophisticated, but the BIAS is absolutely rock hard clear. They slant their "science lectures" so that it "proves" that their god exists.

There's actually quite a list of people who we laypeople should REALLY "go to" if we want accurate information about science:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_s ... of_science

I didn't check for WLC or Ken Ham.. maybe they are on that list.

hoghead1 wrote:
However, as I have many times already pointed out, the question of God is not a scientific question. Science is wholly neutral on whether God does or does not exist.
Yes, you may have pointed out that opinion before.
It's a very common ( and inaccurate ) view of how scientists approach the "God hypothesis".
_________________

CORRECTION:

Some scientists ( I'm thinking Discovery Institute scientists among others ) are trying as hard as they CAN to prove that an intelligent designer exists by way of the "natural sciences".

And a very quick Google search like "scientific proof of God" will find THOUSANDS of quite "scientific" so called proofs of "God". ( just because some scientists are extremely poor at their jobs it doesn't mean they aren't at least trying to use scientific methods. )

If someone can form a hypothesis, such as "God exists", then it is a scientific question. It's just that science has not, so far, have had any evidence for the hypothesis NOR any method by which to investigate that such a being exists. Miracle claims, which are said to come from "God" are of course capable of being examined by way of scientific methods. Science is said to be neutral about "God", in fact, I hear this all the time, but don't get too excited. They are just as "neutral" about Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy.
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Post #260

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 258 by Blastcat]

The consensus of scientific opinion favors the Bib Bang, which is a claim that the universe had a beginning.

There are all kinds of "creation-science" apologists, but I hold "creation-science" is bogus science and worse theology.

Craig never claimed to be a scientist. The kalam argument was formed way before science came along. If and when he cites science, it is because modern science supports his the traditional notion that the universe had a beginning. Craig also his issues with Einstein over the relativity of time and whether there might be an absolute dimension as well. So, too, do other philosophers, such as Hartshorne, Griffith, etc. Actually, Einstein was skeptical about his theory of time, as Einstein the philosopher believed that time did not exist, was an illusion. However, that is not germane to the kalam.

The question of God is definitely not an empirical question. Astronomy, physics, chemistry, biology will never settle it. The scientist's job is to tell us which of the possible universes we've got, and that's it. This is neutral as to the question of God's existence. I think the best scientists know this, and know that when and if they speak about God, they have stepped out of their role as scientist and into the courts of theology and philosophy. If they have found a different world, that would have shown that God has made a different world--that is all. Their scientific work has nothing to do with whether God exists, but concerns only what he has done.

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