Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....
The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.
Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).
So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.
Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.
Moderator: Moderators
Post #222
And i see you believing in ´blind faith´, as i clearly miss whats not blind about it (correct me if im wrong).I will completely agree that the idea of blind faith and believing in something with no foundation or purpose is stupid.
Jesus was a common name in the Middle East (still is), So was crucifixion, that someone named Jesus was not crucified is highly unlikely. If you are asking if i Believe in Jesus, the Son of God, the answer is obviously No, as no God exist in my eyes.I'm not sure as to your position on this, but do you believe in Jesus at all?
If so, who was he?
We have had millions of people during centuries claiming to be the son of God,(for the reason of getting power, becoming famous osf). Some succeeded, some did´nt. If this particular Jesus existed, clearly he managed pretty well to fool everyone. But as said, there is many many more or less exact stories such as the ´Jesus Story´, and there are more religions then Christianity.
Post #225
I'm curious as to whether or not you believe Caeser existed, as well as Socrates, Aristotle and the rest of the ancients we know about today. If so, why not Jesus (as more was written about him within a shorter time of his death than all of these combined).
If you /do/ believe the Jesus that was spoken about existed, then I don't see a basis for thinking he lied.
Based on his behavior, he wasn't insane.
Based on his death for his teachings, he wasn't lying.
The only alternative I see is that he was telling the truth.
There was no reason for the writers of the Gospels to lie (seeing as it would just get them killed), and there's no real reason for writers such as Josephus, Pliny the Younger, etc. to lie about Jesus.
If you /do/ believe the Jesus that was spoken about existed, then I don't see a basis for thinking he lied.
Based on his behavior, he wasn't insane.
Based on his death for his teachings, he wasn't lying.
The only alternative I see is that he was telling the truth.
There was no reason for the writers of the Gospels to lie (seeing as it would just get them killed), and there's no real reason for writers such as Josephus, Pliny the Younger, etc. to lie about Jesus.
Post #226
Do you have records of mentioning Jesus (that one), outside the Gospels and outside that specific sphere (something that has nothing to do with the bible). Uh? Because you said "more was written about him within a shorter time of his death than all of these combined", so i would like to challenge this.I'm curious as to whether or not you believe Caeser existed, as well as Socrates, Aristotle and the rest of the ancients we know about today. If so, why not Jesus (as more was written about him within a shorter time of his death than all of these combined).
There is not reason to claim knowledge about the Son of God?There was no reason for the writers of the Gospels to lie (seeing as it would just get them killed), and there's no real reason for writers such as Josephus, Pliny the Younger, etc. to lie about Jesus.
You must be living in your own dreamworld. If it was today, you would claim it if possible to get money and power. Why? Because 99% of humankind are these kind of selfish ignorant people. So yes dear, they would have huge benefits naming him.
Im in pain at th moment, so im not going to waste my time with you, i almost pitty you, seriously, you are so afraid of Death that you need to create some sort of afterlife for yourself, sure, this is ok, but atleasat admit you are weak instead of trying to act like like its commonsense. Get a life, seriously.
Post #227
What's your criteria for determining the validity of ancient historical documents, because to deny the existance of Jesus is to hold a criteria unlike any scholar held in esteem by the historical society.
Archaeology has repeatadely enforced the acceptance of the Bible as a true, historical document.
Back on the subject of the Bible itself...
There are 10 records of the existance of Juilius Caeser, the earliest of which was written over 1,000 years after his death.
Homer (who's writing is considered to be the secong most prevalent in history) has 643 accounts, writtin within only 500 years of his life (or so is commonly thought).
The New Testament has over 24,000 accounts, with the first written manuscripts dated within 25 years of Jesus' death.
They were written within 25 years of his death, in the same generation of the eyewitnesses (and written by some, as well). Luke, for instance, was being mentored by an eyewitness, and wrote was he was taught.
The vastness of these accounts is extraordinary, considering the following.
1 - Jesus wasn't in a position of public importance. He wasn't a kig, not a religious leader, he wasn't a general. Relative to Rome, Jesus came from a small, unimportant town, was an unimportant carpenter, and he had a short, 3 year ministry. Rome hardly knew of him, until testimony of eyewitnesses later threatened their political and religous stability.
2 - The records of his teachings survived the most intensive eradication effort of all time. Exponentially growing in numbers, Christian witnesses were killed, written records were burned, and anyone professing the belief was martyred/killed. In 303 AD, an edict was issued to destoryr /all/ the world's Bibles. People found with them were killed.
3 - There was no printing press, and the world population was tiny. The number of surviving manuscripsts is staggering considering they were all hand copied by a infinitly small population base (compared to today). Only 138 million people existed at the time, with no automatic duplication. What would motivate such extensive work?
What makes the case even more amazing as that his disciples (all but 1) died horrible deaths of martytrs. I doubt anyone would be willing to die (much less 11) to advance an idea that they know isn't true.
James was stoned, Peter was crucified upside-down, Paul was beheaded, Thaddaeus was killed with arrows, Matthew and James (of Zebedee) had deaths by sword, and the rest were crucified.
More, Paul was a leading killer of Christians, but he gave up wealth, power and comfort upon seeing the ressurected Christ, then proceeded to write most of the New Testament.
How is believing in a higher power "not having a life"? According to you, your life has no meaning and purpose (seeing as you accidentally evolved from ooze)...that seems like less of a life than mine.
I'm trying to keep this debate civil, will you please do the same? Stop claiming that my belief in God is weakness, and stick to the subject at hand.
Archaeology has repeatadely enforced the acceptance of the Bible as a true, historical document.
It wasn't just Christians who wrote of Jesus; Thallus, Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Hadrian, Suetonius, Phlegon, Lucian of Samosata, Mara Bar-Serapoion and the Jewish rabbis at the time wrote about him.Do you have records of mentioning Jesus (that one), outside the Gospels and outside that specific sphere (something that has nothing to do with the bible). Uh? Because you said "more was written about him within a shorter time of his death than all of these combined", so i would like to challenge this.
The big problem with what you said is, the times were not the same as they are now. To claim to be the Son of God in Ancient Rome was pure blasphemy, as the religious leaders saw it.There is not reason to claim knowledge about the Son of God?
You must be living in your own dreamworld. If it was today, you would claim it if possible to get money and power. Why? Because 99% of humankind are these kind of selfish ignorant people. So yes dear, they would have huge benefits naming him.
Back on the subject of the Bible itself...
There are 10 records of the existance of Juilius Caeser, the earliest of which was written over 1,000 years after his death.
Homer (who's writing is considered to be the secong most prevalent in history) has 643 accounts, writtin within only 500 years of his life (or so is commonly thought).
The New Testament has over 24,000 accounts, with the first written manuscripts dated within 25 years of Jesus' death.
They were written within 25 years of his death, in the same generation of the eyewitnesses (and written by some, as well). Luke, for instance, was being mentored by an eyewitness, and wrote was he was taught.
The vastness of these accounts is extraordinary, considering the following.
1 - Jesus wasn't in a position of public importance. He wasn't a kig, not a religious leader, he wasn't a general. Relative to Rome, Jesus came from a small, unimportant town, was an unimportant carpenter, and he had a short, 3 year ministry. Rome hardly knew of him, until testimony of eyewitnesses later threatened their political and religous stability.
2 - The records of his teachings survived the most intensive eradication effort of all time. Exponentially growing in numbers, Christian witnesses were killed, written records were burned, and anyone professing the belief was martyred/killed. In 303 AD, an edict was issued to destoryr /all/ the world's Bibles. People found with them were killed.
3 - There was no printing press, and the world population was tiny. The number of surviving manuscripsts is staggering considering they were all hand copied by a infinitly small population base (compared to today). Only 138 million people existed at the time, with no automatic duplication. What would motivate such extensive work?
What makes the case even more amazing as that his disciples (all but 1) died horrible deaths of martytrs. I doubt anyone would be willing to die (much less 11) to advance an idea that they know isn't true.
James was stoned, Peter was crucified upside-down, Paul was beheaded, Thaddaeus was killed with arrows, Matthew and James (of Zebedee) had deaths by sword, and the rest were crucified.
More, Paul was a leading killer of Christians, but he gave up wealth, power and comfort upon seeing the ressurected Christ, then proceeded to write most of the New Testament.
Is it stronger to think that my life and my existance are pointless, insignificant, an accident, and without relevance to anything?Im in pain at th moment, so im not going to waste my time with you, i almost pitty you, seriously, you are so afraid of Death that you need to create some sort of afterlife for yourself, sure, this is ok, but atleasat admit you are weak instead of trying to act like like its commonsense. Get a life, seriously.
How is believing in a higher power "not having a life"? According to you, your life has no meaning and purpose (seeing as you accidentally evolved from ooze)...that seems like less of a life than mine.
I'm trying to keep this debate civil, will you please do the same? Stop claiming that my belief in God is weakness, and stick to the subject at hand.
Post #228
So if i write a book talking about the Green Elf, this makes him real?It wasn't just Christians who wrote of Jesus; Thallus, Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Hadrian, Suetonius, Phlegon, Lucian of Samosata, Mara Bar-Serapoion and the Jewish rabbis at the time wrote about him.
We have hundreds of thousands of books that talk about Dragons, Elfs, Santa´s and other creatures, using your logic here, all of these are real, coz, someone written about them (claiming them to be real, and have/are existing).
And if this would be an a-new-religion, dont you think the contemporaries would write about this new god, elf or whatever it might be (Jesus in this case).? If its true or not has nothing to do with it. 90% of your ´accounts´are in the bible, the same book that claim this reality.
Explain this to me please.
Thats reality for you. Why do you think you would be worth anything in this world? Its close to 6.5 Billion people in the world, what would YOU, compared to all other Humans, AND CREATURES on this planet be so special. Have you done anything remarkable yet?Is it stronger to think that my life and my existance are pointless, insignificant, an accident, and without relevance to anything?
Humans have managed to destroy the planet we are living on. Destroying the eco System. This is impressive indeed. But as itsa a negative, why would you be so proud of what we are ?
I accidentally evolved from ooze? I presume you are not talking about sperm, so are you suddenly talking about what happened millions of years ago? Well, mom and dad is guilty for my existence for now, sorry. And most of us came by with what i earlier said... sperm. Thats ticky, does it qualify for your ooze definition?How is believing in a higher power "not having a life"? According to you, your life has no meaning and purpose (seeing as you accidentally evolved from ooze)...that seems like less of a life than mine.
Im happy, i manage, so my life os not less. You should not draw the conclusion that because your life is emty if you dont have a God, does not mean mine is. Im happy, well suited to the society and give more then i receive. Thats more then most Chritians can say, thank-you-very-much.
I believe that claiming existence of a God is weakness. My opinion, as i think people claiming Green Elfs to exist to be madman and idiots, but as this is a religion, i need to be careful with my words... You can take offence. Not that you have respect for us using Logic (ooze statement).I'm trying to keep this debate civil, will you please do the same? Stop claiming that my belief in God is weakness, and stick to the subject at hand.
Post #229
Again, you avoided my question.
::EDIT::
And seeing as this debate (at the current time) is for the existance of Christ, I'm not going to respond to the rest of what you said. You obviously have no respect for anyone who believes in God, so it's not worth my time.
::EDIT::
What's your criteria for determining the validity of ancient historical documents, because to deny the existance of Jesus is to hold a criteria unlike any scholar held in esteem by the historical society.
Archaeology has repeatadely enforced the acceptance of the Bible as a true, historical document.
::EDIT::
And seeing as this debate (at the current time) is for the existance of Christ, I'm not going to respond to the rest of what you said. You obviously have no respect for anyone who believes in God, so it's not worth my time.
::EDIT::
Were you referring to the sources i just mentioned? Because none of them are from scripture.And if this would be an a-new-religion, dont you think the contemporaries would write about this new god, elf or whatever it might be (Jesus in this case).? If its true or not has nothing to do with it. 90% of your ´accounts´are in the bible, the same book that claim this reality.
Post #230
I would honestly rather debate factual topics, rather than individual opinions and beliefs...Explain this to me please.
Quote:
Is it stronger to think that my life and my existance are pointless, insignificant, an accident, and without relevance to anything?
Thats reality for you. Why do you think you would be worth anything in this world? Its close to 6.5 Billion people in the world, what would YOU, compared to all other Humans, AND CREATURES on this planet be so special. Have you done anything remarkable yet?
Humans have managed to destroy the planet we are living on. Destroying the eco System. This is impressive indeed. But as itsa a negative, why would you be so proud of what we are ?
Quote:
How is believing in a higher power "not having a life"? According to you, your life has no meaning and purpose (seeing as you accidentally evolved from ooze)...that seems like less of a life than mine.
I accidentally evolved from ooze? I presume you are not talking about sperm, so are you suddenly talking about what happened millions of years ago? Well, mom and dad is guilty for my existence for now, sorry. And most of us came by with what i earlier said... sperm. Thats ticky, does it qualify for your ooze definition?
Im happy, i manage, so my life os not less. You should not draw the conclusion that because your life is emty if you dont have a God, does not mean mine is. Im happy, well suited to the society and give more then i receive. Thats more then most Chritians can say, thank-you-very-much.
Quote:
I'm trying to keep this debate civil, will you please do the same? Stop claiming that my belief in God is weakness, and stick to the subject at hand.
I believe that claiming existence of a God is weakness. My opinion, as i think people claiming Green Elfs to exist to be madman and idiots, but as this is a religion, i need to be careful with my words... You can take offence. Not that you have respect for us using Logic (ooze statement).
Instead of going back and forth between purpose, ooze, weakness, etc., can we stick with history (and the original purpose of this thread)?
