Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

[Zzyzx]

.
Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

[marco]

Most of us have noticed that the Bible claims that its God created evil.

Really? Can you clarify who "us" is? "most of us" atheists?

Surely when one reads the Bible one "notices" things, JW. It would be impolite to suggest that those who read the Bible don't have a clue as to what they are reading.

It would, which is why I wouldn't do that. Are you suggesting anything I have said implied this? If not why are you telling me this specifically? If so please point it out to me since the quotation you have above doesn't do that.

The sentence I was commenting upon had nothing to do with you. I was simply agreeing with Zzyzx. Why did I write this in reply to you? Because you seemed to take issue with the sentence. Because you didn't write the sentence that was written by Zzyzx, it is difficult to see how I can be accusing you of saying something in this sentence which wasn't written by you, but by Zzyzx.
People who read the Bible notice things and, among other things that they notice, one will be that God authorises evil things. Yes, he has reasons for killing infants ranging from wishing to extirpate troublesome people to eliminating evil babies. Whatever his reasons, one conclusion shared by most of humanity is that killing suckling infants is not nice.

As for your conclusions, unless you are suggesting yours is the infallible and unquestionable one, others (like myself, who have also read the bible and "noticed" things) choose to differ. That is how biblical interpretation goes.

Try as I might I haven't achieved infallibility, JW. But I agree with your pleasant commentary on how things are done in debates.

So why quibble here over a simple observation?

I was under the impression that this was a debating forum and any statement may be open to debate. I don't consider that "quibble" if you do, may I suggest you ignore the post or report it if it violates forum guidelines?

I suspect, from your reaction, you have misunderstood my meaning. The simple observation is: People notice things when they read the Bible. This seemed to cause you concern and alarm, and I was quick to point out how innocently simple this statement was. That being so, I was puzzled - I think that's the right word - as to why you had taken exception to this rather ordinary remark and to satisfy my curiosity I asked you why it had been made. But, goodness me, I defend your right to make whatever statement you wish. For my part, I shall rein in my unbridled curiosity. I hope this meets with your full approval. We can then return to Satan and his attempts to compete with God.

[marco]

Thus, we notice God made the serpent, the only evil that we know of that was in the Garden. Thus we notice that God made evil, unless we get into the Theory of Abstract Nouns.

The jump from noticing an evil person to the conclusion that therefore GOD made that person evil is not logical since the leap is unsupported.

It is perfectly logical to say that in a garden where all was good, any bad had to be introduced by the gardener or caretaker. If a snake slithered in, it is true that a human gardener is not responsible. We are talking of a primal garden whose contents were the responsibility of God. It is logical then to say God introduced the evil.

An alternative: GOD created the person who later used his free will to reject YHWH as his GOD thereby self creating his character as eternally evil

This is another avenue of discussion: God's responsibility for free-will given to the angels before matter existed. The aspect of evil is that in a garden where two primal humans have been allowed to wander, by all accounts perfect, there was a serpent. God created or allowed evil.

[JehovahsWitness]

That being so, I was puzzled - I think that's the right word - as to why you had taken exception to this rather ordinary remark and to satisfy my curiosity I asked you why it had been made.

To avoid confusion, I suggest in future you simply quote my words and ask a direct question such as "Why did you say "[insert my words"]. If I feel like replying you, I will certainly give serious consideration to doing so. For the record: I do not believe God "created evil".


Have an excellent end of week,

JW

[marco]

To avoid confusion, I suggest in future you simply quote my words and ask a direct question such as "Why did you say "[insert my words"]. If I feel like replying you, I will certainly give serious consideration to doing so. For the record: I do not believe God "created evil".


Have an excellent end of week,

That's an exceptionally good suggestion, JW. When, as was the case, I am not quoting your words, I will of course do as I did and omit quotation marks.

I am happy to hear that you are of the opinion that God didn't create evil. John tells us: "Without him was made nothing that was made."

As for Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" .... it looks as if you're throwing him out. I have no problem of course with your denying the truth of what is written in the Bible:

God says - I create evil
JW says - God did not create evil

but it is surprising that YOU deny Biblical truth in this way.

Here in Scotland we are certainly ahead of you, but not several days ahead. I have still to enjoy Wednesday and Thursday. Thanks anyway. Have a good day.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 212 by JehovahsWitness]

For the record: I do not believe God "created evil".

So, what do you make of Isaiah 45:7:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 212 by JehovahsWitness]

For the record: I do not believe God "created evil".

So, what do you make of Isaiah 45:7:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

You do realize that JWs tend to rewrite the meaning of scriptures to suite their own doctrine? They even went so far as to publish their own translation of the bible with all of their bias and doctrinal positions to justify those doctrines. They rewrote it to suite their deception.

She will probably say that 'evil' just doesn't mean 'evil' in that verse. Their version doesn't say that.

[marco]

She will probably say that 'evil' just doesn't mean 'evil' in that verse. Their version doesn't say that.

While this may be true, it is not a fault peculiar to JWs. When we come to the meaning of a text about something as harmless as sheep, we are given a variety of explanations that owe their various truths to how often the word sheep appears in old texts. The aim of each sect seems to be to claim divine favour for itself and if re-writing a holy book helps, why not? All's fair in religious wars.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 215 by Yahu]

For the record: I do not believe God "created evil".

So, what do you make of Isaiah 45:7:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

You do realize that JWs tend to rewrite the meaning of scriptures to suite their own doctrine? They even went so far as to publish their own translation of the bible with all of their bias and doctrinal positions to justify those doctrines. They rewrote it to suite their deception.

She will probably say that 'evil' just doesn't mean 'evil' in that verse. Their version doesn't say that.

I am aware that EVERY kind of Christian tends to "rewrite the meaning of scripture to suit their own doctrine".

There have been thousands of theologians arguing over the meaning of these passages for EONS. And now with the new trend in uniquely PERSONAL brands of Christianity, the interpretations are fantastic in number. So, I wouldn't be surprised that to some Christians, "evil" means "good". Who cares, frankly, some apologists mangle the English language so much that they make themselves almost unintelligible.

Our own JW is like most Christians that I have ever "debated" in that regard, and not really someone to single out.

[ttruscott]

John tells us: "Without him was made nothing that was made."

So, do you think that when I say that HE created every person in the image of HIMself with the ability and opportunity to make themselves EITHER perfectly and fully able to become righteous and holy OR to become perfectly and eternally evil forever by their free uncoerced will that all this happened to us without HIM all on our own?
HE made us.
HE made us with a free will.
HE did not make the results of our free will decisions but allowed us choose them...
The fact that our being, our free will and our being called to chose are all from HIM qualifies that we were not "Without him" when we created our free will decisions,

let alone the fact that evil is not a 'thing' but a state of character, a state of mind.

"Without him was made nothing that was made." by HIS decree or by HIS allowance.

As for Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" .... it looks as if you're throwing him out. I have no problem of course with your denying the truth of what is written in the Bible:

You know Christians do not throw out Isa 45:7 at all because we find the word evil to be wrongly translated from the Hebrew and I know you know this because I've taken you through the word study more than once.

God says - I create evil

A strawman non-Christian interpretation based upon a bad translation. Your insistence on following this bad interpretation in light of all against it reminds me of Ralph Waldo Emerson: “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines...." foolish because GOD as revealed in the bible cannot go against Biblically revealed truth as this word would do if your interpretation is accepted.

Do you really think GOD turned HIS attributes and HIS religion on its head by one word when a number of different interpretations of that word are available that support HIS character as just and unwilling to do or create moral evil?

[ttruscott]

She will probably say that 'evil' just doesn't mean 'evil' in that verse. Their version doesn't say that.

evil:
Strong's Concordance
ra': adversity
bad, unpleasant, giving pain, unhappiness, misery:

Of the 22 diferent translation of the Bible at http://biblehub.com/isaiah/45-7.htm, half of them do not use the word 'evil' and the King James 2000 Bible changes the KJV to calamity.

And the commentators who accept the word "evil" deny it alludes to moral evil as per
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(7) I make peace, and create evil . . .—The words have no bearing on the insoluble problem of what we call the origin of evil. “Evil,� as opposed to “peace� or prosperity, is suffering, but not sin;

Benson Commentary equates good or evil, with happiness or misery, not moral evil.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
create evil—not moral evil (Jas 1:13), but in contrast to "peace" in the parallel clause, war, disaster...

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
"evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord,

Nowhere does a Christian commentator decide that this verse supports the idea that GOD is the creator of moral evil as touted by non-believers. It is a good word used to support a false theology.