Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.

[dangerdan]

Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....

The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.

Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).

So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.

[chrispalasz]

Nyril wrote: Actually, no.

The code he wrote is impossible to replace. As he didn't keep good records (or any for that matter) and the other records were destroyed, it was impossible to tell precisely what he had written, and as no general fault shows up (it's a really obscure change), it's impossible to pinpoint.

The reactor is currently running, and removing the code will cause it to meltdown a period of 30 seconds after it's removed, removing any chance of them entirely replacing the code, or possibly finding the sections he removed, as the program takes longer then 30 seconds to compile.

Can he then remove it?

I can't tell if your scenario is true and accurate or if it is hypothetical. Which of these is it?

The answer to the above question will definately affect my answer. 8)

[Diocletianus812]

[quote="otseng"]When I read the question,
Does he exist, this Santa Claus?
I initially ignored it and then decided
to give it some pause.

It seems like the mind of the atheists
have given the Santa argument a nod,
Of using this argument to show
that there is not a God.

So, in humoring the readers
and in bringing some pre-seasonal cheer,
I'll add some more thoughts
on the Santa argument here.

Though the comparison might have some parallels,
there are some that are perpendicular,
So I will attempt to argue my case through several means,
of using rhyme and reasoning in particular.

The argument then goes
that if Santa is an illusion
then not believing in a god
could be a similar conclusion.

The comparison between the two
is not appropriate I feel
because no adults in their right mind
personally believe that Santa is real.

Adults only try to convince their child
that a man named Santa exists
But to say that any adults truly believe in him
would be amiss.

No adult tries to convince another adult
of Santa's existence,
with the exception perhaps
of those who need some mental assistance.

So, to hold the position
that Santa is not a fake,
is not a position
that any reasonable person would take.

----------------------
This entire poem can be found in the first thread or two. . . In response I write (keep in mind for me it is late at night):

So, sir hold on wait
Let me get what you are saying, let me get it straight
Nobel adults have worshiped gods
They knew this was a fact - they were not odd.

They did not understand nature
Or they things worked
A Volcona, A hurricane, A Tornado
Damn it made their knee jeRk

Many adults never questioned these gods
They lacked science
So their hearts were not at odds

They did not understand their universe
They felt evil nature was a curse
Drying of crops, changing of seasons
Often they found these very displeasing

The sun god Ra
He was a good man - the light, the way
He gave to them all he can

Mithra was born on december 25
12 Apostles a reserecution
But alas it was a myth

Atlas was just an evil guy
He was punished to carry the world
Be glad it was not or I

Then there was Zeus, Odin and Thor
Isis & Allah and many more
Some even demanded great waR!
Vikings, PersianZ, RussianS and MoRe
Raping, Killing and Destroying in honor of these gods
and morE!


I could go on and list lots of gods
Several hundred of more
But alas what a freaking choRe

Science and religion will never mix
Like a guilty & fearful junkie
The theist always need his fix

There is no need to debate such pious fraawd!
The confused religious man will always claim gawd
He shall always remain in his thick shelled pawd(pod)

No fact, no science, no NOTHING NOT EVER
Will sway the religion from an evil fradulent endevouR

Religion is imprinted
Or adopted by the weak
Often a crutch for the misguided & meek

A social neuroSiS
Causing extreme Psychosis!
Even paranoia and fear
A religious great depression is obvious and here

Christian Intelligence
Is an oxymoron, I must confess
A test of time and science they will not pass
Sit down boy in the back of the class

I wish I could help you
I really do
Facts, commonsense and science means nothing
Well, atleast to adults like you

No pride in yourself
You choose to hide
You guilt ridden fool open your window
Look outside!

Your simple debate
Well, it has fell
Nobel adults have known many variations of heaven & hell
This argument is not doing so swell

There is no reason to change your mind
Just as there is no cure for the blind
Learn about the real world, get off your behind

Seperation anxiety you know it well
Your parents kicked you out
Your common sense and morals fell

Lonely and scared
Feeling impared
Manifested a god
An invisible omnipotent supernatural being no one can see measure, hear, smell, locate, describe or establish direct recordeable communication with
SIR LET ME TELL YOU THAT IS DISTURBED AND ODD

Give me the supernatural phone
I will call him up
You seem to know him well
This phone call will save me from hell
THAT WOULD BE Really SWELL. . .

Sorry it is 3am. . .
Possibly if it was 11 or 4
I would have been in a better mood
To rhyme tell stories and more

Lastly I must say
I am not a poet
Not like you
Nor am I a christian or jew

I am just a man with faith in his kind
A godless man who knows no fear
I know my mind

Oh yes one more thing
I've not has a chance to get this thread read
Just so you know
There is a possibility someone wrote a rhyme better than you or mine
Although I doubt it
With me this is fine

Signed
-- A godless intelligent knowing man
One who is knows of his future
And of his land
Does not need a bloody lam(b)

[Nyril]

I can't tell if your scenario is true and accurate or if it is hypothetical. Which of these is it?

The answer to the above question will definately affect my answer.

The entire bit started as a way to ask if god could destroy what he created at the expense of a great number of people, why can't we behave in a similar manner. As such, the computer code program was started. But at every step of the analogy the question was never answered, instead it was continuously dodged (more then one person worked on it, someone else could be found, the code could be replaced, etc...). So I'm raising the stakes.

There isn't a single person on the planet that can replace the person's code. There isn't a single document that will allow someone else to replace it. There isn't so much as a single way for them to avoid a reactor meltdown if the code is removed, and millions will be killed (no warning to clear out the cities).

Does the writer of the code have the right to remove his creation?

[Jose]

...Religion is imprinted
Or adopted by the weak
Often a crutch for the misguided & meek...

...Science and religion will never mix
Like a guilty & fearful junkie
The theist always need his fix

There is no need to debate such pious fraawd!
The confused religious man will always claim gawd
He shall always remain in his thick shelled pawd(pod) ...

I'm not a Christian, but perhaps I can speak for them thus:

Poetry's fine, but yours seems to reflect
Toward the Christians among us some disrespect
We really don' t think we're as stupid as you
Seem to imply in line 42

We've arrived at our currently held worldviews
Not only by sitting around snoozing in pews
But also by what we believe that we know
From our studies of scripture and biblical sto-

ries

We're happy to have you in our conversation
But request you avoid insinuation
That religion is really no more than a crutch
For those who can't think--so don't treat it as such

You know that your science is currently not
Able to answer the questions we've got
So here at this forum we'd like to achieve
A friendly discussion with those who believe

And those who don't

- - - - - - -

or something like that, anyway.

[Diocletianus812]

I apologize for the for my insinuation
Calling religion a crutch
I understand you do not like it too much.


What is a crutch though? An object that helps a man who is unable to walk on his own - allows the man to walk on his own. I fail to see how faith is not a universal crutch? Regardless if your faith is true YHVH will allow you to rest on him and him on you. Seems like a crutch to me.
If by some odd chance faith is untrue this fact proves that only a weak man need em, not me or you. You may not like to hear it - but I still feel my analogy to be true. I will stop rhyming and being what you call 'rude'. I am no longer in a poetic mood.

[Jose]

Rhyming is tough, isn't it? I see what you are saying, but apparently there are other beliefs about religion, among the religious. Not having been religious myself, I can't speak to this issue very knowledgeably--but having watched a number of these conversations, it seems pretty clear that they work more smoothly if we try to avoid things that can be perceived as "attacks." Sometimes this is difficult, if we honestly believe that what we are saying is really true. However, if we really want to try to convince the other guy, it's good to keep in mind that it's more successful if we keep them in the conversation.

If it turns out that faith is untrue (ie, there is, and never was, any sort of god), then we have another conundrum: why did virtually every culture on earth come up with some sort of supernatural beings as a foundation of their religion? We seem to have a character trait that calls for explanations, and another that enables us to develop stories to fill in the bits we don't fully understand.

In any event, welcome to the group, Diocletianus812! We'll look forward to your insights.

[Osiris Dragonfhain]

Why is it that Christians in general say I believe in God and Jesus because my grandmother or grandfather told my mother or father who then told me so it must be true? I saw it in a book it must be true. Do people not realize how easy it is to make yourself manifest things that are not real. To believe in something so hard you will kill or die for it. I have never in my life believed in anything so extremely that I was willing to die for it. How is it that a mortal person Jesus (Biblical times), Jim Jones (Jonestown Massacre), Charles Manson (Helter Skelter) could talk and convince people that he/she is the All Midi God. If people can be convince so easily than maybe it is possible that one day some one came up with an idea to see if they could get people to believe in something enough that they would be willing to do anything for that belief. I here Christians around me say things my child died because God wanted it that way. Instead of my child died because they lost control of their car or because of a bad or sick person killed them. I don't think in my life (38 years worth) that I have ever heard Christians take responsibility for their own actions or troubles. I am not saying all Just ones I have heard or interacted with. I am a good singer it has nothing to do with my talent God made it happen. I got a good job nothing to with my schooling or experience God made it happen.

I am sure I will get a lot of flak for asking but why is it.

[chrispalasz]

Osiris Dragonfhain: Why is it that Christians in general say I believe in God and Jesus because my grandmother or grandfather told my mother or father who then told me so it must be true?

Hey, you could start an entire thread out of this question and the rest. You should do that. For now, I'll just respond here.

Being a Christian (but not one that you have described), I think that Christians say this because we are positive that God exists and we know that He's Jesus Christ... but some of us are at a loss for words when it comes to explaining our Faith or the Holy Spirit. As a result, some of us may say things like this when it is not entirely accurate.

I hope that helps!

[Andrew]

I am a Christian, and so are my parents. I was still told the Santa existed when I was a little kid. We had no problem with it.

[Overcomer]

Here's one man's answer to the question asked at the onset of this very long thread:

Why do you believe in Jesus but not Santa Claus?
By Matt Slick

Sometimes atheists will ask why Christians believe in Jesus and not Santa Claus. Some atheists say that you cannot prove Jesus existed anymore than you can prove Santa Claus exists. Of course, this is not accurate for several reasons.

First of all, Jesus is presented as an historical figure by reputable people in both secular and sacred historical writings. Santa Claus is simply presented as a fictional character.

Second, Jesus is presented as a real person who claimed to be divine and who performed miracles. These accounts are attested to by reputable witnesses and have been transmitted to us reliably; the New Testament documents are 99.5% textually pure. Santa Claus is intentionally and knowing presented as a fictional character who lives at the North Pole.

Third, the intention of the gospel writers was to convey the physical reality of Jesus to responsible adults where the accounts of Santa are intended to entertain the wild imaginations of children. This is why the vast majority of healthy, mentally competent adults do not believe in a real person known as Santa who can travel through air being pulled by several flying reindeer, who can carry in his sled enough presents for all the good children in the entire world, and who can descend and ascend through chimneys even though he is quite overweight.1

Fourth, the writings concerning Jesus exhibit an historical, cultural, religious, and political context with verifiable names, events, and places being an integral part of the record of that context and reality. Santa Claus stories do not contain any such integral contextualization except to state that there is a north pole and that there are cities and countries where Santa visits at night.

Fifth, the facts are that parents are the ones who buy, wrap, and deliver presents to children and we know of no documented occurrences where Santa Claus has been caught breaking and entering, tripping home alarm systems, caught on film, vanishing up a chimney, and riding a sleigh through the air pulled by flying reindeer. This latter point is worth commenting on since we additionally have no evidence at all that reindeer can fly which further adds to the irrationality of the Santa Claus story. Additionally, if a large sleigh (sufficient to carry millions of toys) approached the Washington D.C. area (surely there are at least some good children there), we would expect to hear of military fighter jets being scrambled to intercept the intruder. No records of this have yet surfaced.

Sixth, given that the gospel accounts were written by individuals who knew Jesus personally (or were under the guidance of those who knew Him), that the gospels are historically accurate, superbly transmitted to us through the copying method, we can then assume at the very least, that Jesus was an actual historical person. But, we have no hard evidence to establish the validity of Santa Claus. We have found no reindeer tracts on the roofs of snow covered homes strewn about millions of homes on Christmas Eve. There are no video accounts of Santa roaming throughout peoples' homes. We know of no flying reindeer, and no one has yet established how Santa can live at the North Pole for hundreds of years without being detected -- particularly in this technologically advanced culture. Add to that the lack of Santa Disciples going about the world, risking their lives, being ridiculed by religious and political adversaries, writing inspirational text, performing miracles, etc., and you really don't have much evidence at all that Santa exists except in the mind of children.

Finally, it really comes down to whether or not either one can be reasonably supported to exist. Very few people deny the historic reality of Jesus and though millions of children affirm the existence of Santa, we know well that the minds of children are not capable of differentiating between fantasy and reality -- particularly when the parents they are trusting tell them that Santa is real.

For an atheist to reject Jesus' existence based on arguments found against Santa Claus demonstrates the inability for the atheist to distinguish between historical verifiable documents and known constructed children's' stories. Jesus was an actual historical figure. Santa, of course, is not.

___________
1. Granted there are probably some adults why may believe in Santa Claus as a reality, but I suspect they would be mental patients or some other such people not fully in touch with reality.

From: http://www.carm.org/atheism/santa.htm