Bad Christian or not a Christian?

[boatsnguitars]

Can you still be a Christian, even if you purposely defy Jesus's commands?

So everyone is clear, Jesus commanded of his followers:

Love God and Love Your Neighbor:
Matthew 22:37-39 (NIV): "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

The Great Commission:
Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV): "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Repentance and Forgiveness:
Luke 24:46-47 (NIV): "Repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations."

The Golden Rule:
Matthew 7:12 (NIV): "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."

Humility and Servanthood:
Matthew 20:26-28 (NIV): "Whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave."

Seek God's Kingdom First:
Matthew 6:33 (NIV): "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

The New Commandment:
John 13:34-35 (NIV): "Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

Perseverance and Endurance:
Matthew 24:13 (NIV): "But the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Faith and Trust:
John 14:1 (NIV): "Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me."

Generosity and Selflessness:
Luke 6:30 (NIV): "Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back."

Giving to Those in Need:
Matthew 5:42 (NIV): "Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

At what point does a person go from being a bad Christian to no Christian at all?

[1213]

Please tell where can I find them?

Are you joking?

No. First step to help people is to find the person who needs help. Maybe I can't help every poor human on earth, but I would like to know who they are, because then I may be able to do something about it. This also would help me to see what you think poor means. It may be that we have a different idea of what is poor.

Christians, especially white evangelical Christians, are much more likely than non-Christians to view poverty as the result of individual failings.

Thanks for that information. I think that is what should be expected from Christians.

[1213]

But that to me is just taking the best moral principles (whether or not one carries them out or not) and claiming them for Jesus. But the moral principles of Jesus are either not practical or not moral - like abandoning family and friends for the religious group. No, following Jesus is not about morals,...

I think following Jesus means on keeps the best moral principles and therefore it is about morals.

Abandoning family and friends for betterment of whole humankind is not in my opinion bad. Not doing what is good, because of family, would be bad.

But the same can be said of any religion

I don't see how that could be, because not all religions have good teachings.

Also, that is hobbled by not being able to question it as good or bad.

I think Bible encourages to question everything.

Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good.
1 Thess. 5:21

[TRANSPONDER]

But that to me is just taking the best moral principles (whether or not one carries them out or not) and claiming them for Jesus. But the moral principles of Jesus are either not practical or not moral - like abandoning family and friends for the religious group. No, following Jesus is not about morals,...

I think following Jesus means on keeps the best moral principles and therefore it is about morals.

Abandoning family and friends for betterment of whole humankind is not in my opinion bad. Not doing what is good, because of family, would be bad.

But the same can be said of any religion

I don't see how that could be, because not all religions have good teachings.

Also, that is hobbled by not being able to question it as good or bad.

I think Bible encourages to question everything.

Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good.
1 Thess. 5:21

What are 'good teachings?' You can only say 'good' (or bad) by comparison. If you judge good and bad in other religions compared to the Bible/Christianity then the religious bias makes your contention invalid (Folks, it's faithbased a priori yet again).

If, however you are judging Other religions by a human code, especially if you also jusged the Bible by good and bad (even if you excused the Bad as 'necessary', deserved punishment or all Mans' fault) then you are using the humanist moral code we all use, and religious moral standards fails.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to 1213 in post #21]

I'm not going to do the simple search for you. If you aren't aware of where poor people are, by any measure, you are woefully uninformed.

It's almost as if you refuse to acknowledge there is poverty in the world at all.

As for your last comment, we have come to expect this attitude among American and Western Christians steeped in Capitalust dogma, but I have to wonder where the Bible supports this?

[1213]

What are 'good teachings?' You can only say 'good' (or bad) by comparison....

Good teaching is for example: don't murder, don't lie. Bad teaching would be for example abort your children to get better life.

If, however you are judging Other religions by a human code, especially if you also jusged the Bible by good and bad (even if you excused the Bad as 'necessary', deserved punishment or all Mans' fault) then you are using the humanist moral code we all use, and religious moral standards fails.

By what I know about humanist moral code, I don't use it.

I think my idea of good and bad is based on the Bible. It gives the best definition, and so it is also based on my opinion of what I think is good. I think persons idea of good and bad is always based on humans own thinking also and never just something that others say.

And in the Bible, the moral code is basically based on, do others what you want to be done to you. Which then means for example, if I don't want to be murdered, I don't murder. I choose that, because I think it is reasonable, gives a good chance for nice living, and therefore good.

[1213]

It's almost as if you refuse to acknowledge there is poverty in the world at all.

I think we probably have a different idea of what is poor.

As for your last comment, we have come to expect this attitude among American and Western Christians steeped in Capitalust dogma, but I have to wonder where the Bible supports this?

I don't know what you mean with capitalist dogma, but, in Bible the situation of a person depends much on what person does. And if person lives by the rules in the Bible, people have a better chance to avoid being poor.

However there shall be no poor with you; (for Yahweh will sure-ly bless you in the land which Yahweh your God gives you for an inheritance to possess it;)
Deut. 15:4

The view poverty as the result of individual failings, is not necessary always true. But I think most of the time it is. If person is not badly disabled, he can always do something the get things better. And in Biblical point of view it is expected for to person to do things and not just demand others to take care of him.

In all things I gave you an example, that so laboring you ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive'.
Acts 20:35

If anyone does not desire to work, neither let him eat.
2 The. 3:10

If everyone lives by the rules, and there would still be some poor person, I would like to know, why is he poor and what does that mean. Because, maybe that person needs help and then Christians should help him, which also is one way to reduce poor people.

He answered them, "He who has two coats, let him give to him who has none. He who has food, let him do likewise."
Luke 3:11

The wicked borrow, and don't pay back, But the righteous give generously.
Ps. 37:21

I think all the rules in the Bible improve life of everyone involved. And if people don't live by the rules, it can easily lead one to be poor. That is why I think being poor depends much of what person chooses to do, although there can be situations that are not persons own fault.

[TRANSPONDER]

What are 'good teachings?' You can only say 'good' (or bad) by comparison....

Good teaching is for example: don't murder, don't lie. Bad teaching would be for example abort your children to get better life.

If, however you are judging Other religions by a human code, especially if you also jusged the Bible by good and bad (even if you excused the Bad as 'necessary', deserved punishment or all Mans' fault) then you are using the humanist moral code we all use, and religious moral standards fails.

By what I know about humanist moral code, I don't use it.

I think my idea of good and bad is based on the Bible. It gives the best definition, and so it is also based on my opinion of what I think is good. I think persons idea of good and bad is always based on humans own thinking also and never just something that others say.

And in the Bible, the moral code is basically based on, do others what you want to be done to you. Which then means for example, if I don't want to be murdered, I don't murder. I choose that, because I think it is reasonable, gives a good chance for nice living, and therefore good.

Nah. It is based on common humanist teaching.'Don't murder' (unless permitted by social custom or religious convenience) is a common idea in many societies and they devised moral codes about it. The Bible merely has its' own take and really not even original. Your argument is (of course and as usual) flawed because it is a faithbased a priori of thinking that God is real and of course is the origin of everything including morality (but the bad which is somehow man's fault). I reckon you confuse what you have been told or have an expectation of what the Bible ought to say, rather than an understanding of what it actually does say.

You know you already lost this argument: the condoning of slavery shows that human morality is actually better as the Bible morality was just the mortality of its' day. I believe it even has rules permitting abortion (since you bring that up) but I'm not familiar with the passage so don't quote me, as they say.

The Bible is not a good guide to morals or living, not even the unfeasible extremes of the NT, more to do with selling the message than making for a moral society. I'm sure (indeed I expect) you can pick some few words about Love, but this is clearly in a context of love for those who play ball with the belief. If not, then they deserve the worst that God can dish out. Jesus gleefully predicts destruction of the towns of Galilee (1)(where he had a pretty good reception, by Gospel accounts).That didn't fall out of the sky - if God didn't arrange it God must approve it or he'd prevent it, right?

Unless he doesn't intervene. But then, the world works as if no gods were there at all.

(1) Matthew 11.20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

They hadn't repented? That wasn't their fault. Didn't we already see that Jesus spoke in parables to ensure they wouldn't understand, turn and repent and be saved? This had been set up by God. Or at least it would be so if one believed it but of course this is the belief and doctrines of men who thought the Jews had the destruction of the Jewish land was coming because they rejected Jesus.

[boatsnguitars]

It's almost as if you refuse to acknowledge there is poverty in the world at all.

I think we probably have a different idea of what is poor.

As for your last comment, we have come to expect this attitude among American and Western Christians steeped in Capitalust dogma, but I have to wonder where the Bible supports this?

I don't know what you mean with capitalist dogma, but, in Bible the situation of a person depends much on what person does. And if person lives by the rules in the Bible, people have a better chance to avoid being poor.

However there shall be no poor with you; (for Yahweh will sure-ly bless you in the land which Yahweh your God gives you for an inheritance to possess it;)
Deut. 15:4

The view poverty as the result of individual failings, is not necessary always true. But I think most of the time it is. If person is not badly disabled, he can always do something the get things better. And in Biblical point of view it is expected for to person to do things and not just demand others to take care of him.

In all things I gave you an example, that so laboring you ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive'.
Acts 20:35

If anyone does not desire to work, neither let him eat.
2 The. 3:10

If everyone lives by the rules, and there would still be some poor person, I would like to know, why is he poor and what does that mean. Because, maybe that person needs help and then Christians should help him, which also is one way to reduce poor people.

He answered them, "He who has two coats, let him give to him who has none. He who has food, let him do likewise."
Luke 3:11

The wicked borrow, and don't pay back, But the righteous give generously.
Ps. 37:21

I think all the rules in the Bible improve life of everyone involved. And if people don't live by the rules, it can easily lead one to be poor. That is why I think being poor depends much of what person chooses to do, although there can be situations that are not persons own fault.

Is it just me, or do people find these responses disingenuous? You seem to know what poor means, by the quotes you provided. Are you not aware of where there are people who don't have coats? Who don't have food? Who work, but can't afford basic necessities?

So, why do you ask me for the definition of poor, when you seem to already know it? Are you not aware that 50% of the globe lives on less than $1 per day - many of them not happy or healthy, but working hard to survive?

Perhaps, like most Christians, you don't care because it must be their fault - and you've got yours, so they don't concern you. After all, if you don't see any legitimate poor people, you don't have to follow Jesus's command to help them, is that it?

[Data]

Can you still be a Christian, even if you purposely defy Jesus's commands?

At what point does a person go from being a bad Christian to no Christian at all?

So, you're saying Christians are moral and non-Christians aren't? Or are you saying that your expectations are superfluous due to some quasi-religious inferiority complex? Maybe it's just a smokescreen for a xenophobic religious discrimination? Or are you genuinely of the theological belief that sin is absolved immediately upon becoming a Christian? (Romans 6:7)

I think it's irrelevant. The point is that your criticism is only a symptom of something else.

[Data]

(Go figure... An atheist educating and encouraging Christians to be more Christian!)

We need more believers educating and encouraging unbelievers to be more unbelieving.

For example, when Christ spoke to people those were the people he was speaking to.