"Slavery" in the Bible

[POI]

Allow us readers to be very careful. We must make sure we identify the proper context here, to assure against hasty and/or self-serving conclusions.

Exodus 21:2-3:

"2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him." <-- Okay, this seems clear enough, if you are a purchased Hebrew, with a wife, you are both to go free in year 7.

Exodus 21:4:

"4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free." <-- Here is where things start to look sketchy for the modern-day believer. If the slave is provided with a wife, and they have kids, the wife and kids are to stay with the slave master. They are not to go free.

Exodus 21:5-6:

"5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life." <-- More uncomfortability for the Christian here. Without getting into the weeds, common sense suggests a special rule is made to trick the male Hebrew into remaining a slave for life.

Leviticus 25:44-46:

"44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." <-- More awkwardness for the believer, as the Bible reader clammers to find a rationale to make this passage not read the way it does.

Here is a basic definition of chattel slavery --> "Chattel slavery is full slavery in its traditional form whereby slaves are the complete property of their master, can be bought and sold by him and treated in any way that he wishes, which may include torture and other brutality, excessively bad working conditions, and sexual exploitation"

Looks like all the ingredients fit the given Bible description here, minus the torture. Wait a minute, this is covered in the rest of Exodus 21. (i.e.):

"20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." <-- So basically, since the slave is your property, beatings with impunity are acceptable. Just don't kill them.

For debate:

By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery?

Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves?

************************

Before you answer, consider this.... Since the NT does not mention the abolition of 'slavery', and yet the Bible makes further proclamation(s) and/or addendums (in favor of retaining 'slavery',) this means the Bible is not against chattel slavery either. Further, the Christian may want to introduce the importance of the 'golden rule'. However, the specifics outweigh the generals. The specifics of the rules for engagement of slavery are outside the 'golden rule'. Otherwise, the Bible would be a one-pager. 'Slavery' is an expressed exception to the general rule. Thus, anytime a specific scenario is not invoked, yes, 'golden rule.'

[TRANSPONDER]

...
The text is a bit ambiguous in full as it isn't clear whether this applies only to Hebrew slaves or to all. Since the rules seem to apply to how one deals with Hebrew women, daughters or betrothed, if slaves or not, I suspect we have rules about how the Law applies in the case that they are Hebrew slaves. For Foreign slaves, there may not be the same rules. But it is debatable. What is not is that even if you treated your foreign slaves kindly and decently they were your property for life and that is chattel slavery. It is either ok or it is not according to supposedly God -given morality. Which is it?

If the text doesn't say it is only about Hebrew slaves, then it is about all slaves. I don't think there is anything ambiguous in that.

Well, it is something I noticed. it might require some looking at. The matter is not just whether the rules to treat slaves decently applied to all of them,but whether it is made clear that Some slaves were property for life and were not allowed to god free after 7 years and that rule applied only to Hebrew slaves, which from previous discussion seems to be the case.

In which case, is it wrong to own slaves as property for life, even if one treats them reasonably decently? Think carefully before you answer because if you say 'yes', you have smashed the case for the Bible and Christianity being moral, and if you say 'No', you have done the same thing.

Slavery in the Bible is a killer for Bible validity which is why it comes up as often as Cosmic origins comes up as a supposed killer for atheism.

I think this makes it clear

Leviticus 25.39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Foreigners can be property for life and passed on to the children as property. Since they are treated differently, as far as ambiguity goes with whether decent treatment applies to all slaves or just Hebrew ones, arguably those so not apply to foreign slaves, too. Certainly not the one about releasing them after 7 years. That (despite it not being clear) suggests that it is just relating to Hebrew slaves. The burden of proof would fall on you, I think, to show that it does apply to a foreign slave.

But apart from that, foreign slaves were property for life and you either endorse that or you have to say that modern morals are better than Biblical ones.

[boatsnguitars]

...and realize ancient people were horrible, ...

I think ancient people were horrible, but I think modern people are even worse.

Really? I imagine you aren't a woman, person of color, handicapped in some way, left-handed, red-headed, albino, intersex, have any mental illness, etc... because anyone with those characteristics would immediately find themselves in a brutal, unforgiving world, a million times worse than today.

I think the world is immeasurably better. If it's not, then I have to wonder why Christians claim they've done so much for the world? What good was Christianity - was it just to save your own skin, the rest of the world be damned?

[TRANSPONDER]

I agree.I watched a vid that examined this 'we are worse off' claim and showed that this is untrue in every respect. I have never been a 'Golden Ageist' nor Luddite (1) and dentistry alone makes me firmly of the view that the bronze age, Jurassic and, yeah... Ist c AD Palestine... though fascinating to visit would not be where I would want to live. Besides We live in pretty Interesting Times right now.

(1) though i agree that the planet needs looking after but not by exterminating all humanity and letting the critters run wild again.

[1213]

...and realize ancient people were horrible, ...

I think ancient people were horrible, but I think modern people are even worse.

Really?

Yes, a nuclear holocaust is closer than ever, environment is allegedly almost destroyed beyond repair, children are mutilated by doctors who don't seem to even understand what is a woman or a man, justice is dead, world leaders are extremely totalitarian control freaks... ...it is possible that in ancient times there were evil people, I think we have them more now and they are more powerful than ever, so I think things are much worse.

[1213]

Well, it is something I noticed. it might require some looking at. The matter is not just whether the rules to treat slaves decently applied to all of them,but whether it is made clear that Some slaves were property for life and were not allowed to god free after 7 years and that rule applied only to Hebrew slaves, which from previous discussion seems to be the case.

I think one interesting part of this is, who are Hebrews. Do you know how to define who is a Hebrew?

In which case, is it wrong to own slaves as property for life, even if one treats them reasonably decently? Think carefully before you answer because if you say 'yes', you have smashed the case for the Bible and Christianity being moral, and if you say 'No', you have done the same thing.

Slavery in the Bible is a killer for Bible validity which is why it comes up as often as Cosmic origins comes up as a supposed killer for atheism.

If Bible allows slavery with certain conditions, I think it is hypocrite to say it is wrong, if one at the same time accepts mandatory taxes. Everyone who must pay taxes is a slave. So, if modern moral says slavery is wrong, it should also end mandatory taxes.

But, Bible gives right to own slaves. I have no problem with it, if the keepers obey every rule in the Bible accurately. I have a problem with it, if the keepers don't follow exactly every other rule in the Bible, as written in the Bible.

[1213]

...Bottom line is that, a slave master can beat their slaves, with impunity, provided they do not knock out eyes/teeth. This instruction apparently comes from the God you worship. Do you agree with God's instruction here?

I agree with God's instructions. By them, I think no one would beat anyone, not even slaves. For example I think this is a good instruction in this case:

You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he be of your brothers, or of your foreigners who are in your land within your gates: in his day you shall give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down on it; for he is poor, and sets his heart on it: lest he cry against you to Yahweh, and it be sin to you. The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. You shall not wrest the justice due to the foreigner, or to the fatherless, nor take the widow’s clothing to pledge; but you shall remember that you were a bondservant in Egypt, and Yahweh your God redeemed you there: therefore I command you to do this thing.
Deu. 24:14-18

But, maybe it depends much on, do you read it by letter, or by spirit.

[1213]

...
Is there some number of slaves I could have, before God gets upset?

First I would need to know, are you a Hebrew?

How about, now I'm just asking, but how about selling my family off as slaves?

I think it would be against this:

If your brother has grown poor among you, and sells himself to you; you shall not make him to serve as a slave. As a hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with you; he shall serve with you until the Year of Jubilee: then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and shall return to his own family, and to the possession of his fathers. For they are my servants, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt. They shall not be sold as slaves.
Lev. 25:39-42

I think buying is not the problem in this matter, selling is. People should not sell anyone.

[JoeyKnothead]

...
Is there some number of slaves I could have, before God gets upset?

First I would need to know, are you a Hebrew?

For purposes of this discussion, let's say I'm half Hebrew.

How about, now I'm just asking, but how about selling my family off as slaves?

I think it would be against this:

If your brother has grown poor among you, and sells himself to you; you shall not make him to serve as a slave. As a hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with you; he shall serve with you until the Year of Jubilee: then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and shall return to his own family, and to the possession of his fathers. For they are my servants, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt. They shall not be sold as slaves.
Lev. 25:39-42

I think buying is not the problem in this matter, selling is. People should not sell anyone.
[/quote]
Well that'll solve that question, what about the rest of them.

For the record, though I may come across as teasing here, I contend the questions I've proposed are legitimate to the topic at hand.

[boatsnguitars]

...and realize ancient people were horrible, ...

I think ancient people were horrible, but I think modern people are even worse.

Really?

Yes, a nuclear holocaust is closer than ever, environment is allegedly almost destroyed beyond repair, children are mutilated by doctors who don't seem to even understand what is a woman or a man, justice is dead, world leaders are extremely totalitarian control freaks... ...it is possible that in ancient times there were evil people, I think we have them more now and they are more powerful than ever, so I think things are much worse.

Not a fan of dental care, vaccines, antibiotics... or computers.... ?

[TRANSPONDER]

...and realize ancient people were horrible, ...

I think ancient people were horrible, but I think modern people are even worse.

Really?

Yes, a nuclear holocaust is closer than ever, environment is allegedly almost destroyed beyond repair, children are mutilated by doctors who don't seem to even understand what is a woman or a man, justice is dead, world leaders are extremely totalitarian control freaks... ...it is possible that in ancient times there were evil people, I think we have them more now and they are more powerful than ever, so I think things are much worse.

And yet the Bomb has probably been the reason why we have not had WWIII,we may see and end to the last dictators, justice has shown that religious control cannot turn pseudoscience into science and even powerful politicians cannot escape justice forever. And I will leave aside the gender issues, about which you are free to have your own opinions. I will obnly observe that I see no sign of a god in any of this. It either does not care or does not exist.