Fundamental christianity, is it narcissistic?

[bernee51]

In another thread the following exhange took place:

Me: You live a blinkered existence, blinded by your own perspective and a sociocentic, narcisstic religion.

Al: Narcissism? I'm am not a homosexual.

Me: Do you understand what is actually meant by narcissism? And why do you assocaiate it with homosexuality?

Al: You do know the story don't you? It is the reflection of the human body that should provide the empiricism necessary to accurately describe sex acts, the what and where.

But is that what it means. The 'story' of Narcissis is well known - the beautiful youth who fell in love with his own reflection and so on. But what does the myth mean and how does it relate to religion.

(Please note, the following discussion reflects on belief systems and does not indicate or mean to imply pathologies of any sort amongst the followers of these religions.)

In psychology narcissism (and borderline pathologies) indicate a problem with realistic emotional boundaries to the self. The individual lacks a sense of cohesive self. The self either treats the world as an extension of itself (narcissistic), or is constantly invaded and tortured by the world (borderline).

So let's look at fundamental religious belief. Any parallels? I have been told often enough by believers that if I do not embrace the teachings of Jesus I am bound for hell. The world at large, in fact, is really (or is believed should be) an extension of the dogma of the proscribed religiosity.

Or, as we have seen in other threads, there can arise amongst those who have these beliefs a definite feeling that the world is out to get their religion. That forces are gathering to bring them down - their beliefs are being invaded and tortured by, for example, 'hate speech' legislation.

Narcissism can be summed up in the statement "My country right or wrong" (of course you can subsitiute any belief system you like in place of the word country)

Fundamental religious beliefs are clearly sociocentric (the social equivalent of egocentrism). The world is seen from only one perspective. Development out of these mindsets can be defined as a successive decrease in sociocentrism. It is the development of an apersptectival, truly pluralist worldview.

Fundamental religion does not offer that as an option. It is definitely a case of - my religion, right or wrong, take it or leave it. And, by the way, if you leave it you are doomed.

[trencacloscas]

I don't agree one bit, micatala

Why is the incredible insult of Christians by trencacloscas allowed to
remain on this website?

Quote:
Some of the best things in life are pure selfish gratification. Since I regard Christianity as sheer hatred for life, this doesn't surprise me one bit.

I was raised a Christian myself, my perception of Christianity is as valid as anybody else's, be it Christian or not. If somebody does not agree with me, I duly accept his opinion, but I don't take it as an insult. Many Christians get easily offended to avoid the criticism, as we'd seen it many times now in this forum. My opinion is that Christianity, like other monotheistic cults, creates hatred among men and promotes contempt towards "this life". Therefore, I argue. If it is "inflammatory", I'm sorry. It's still what I think.

[melikio]

My opinion is that Christianity, like other monotheistic cults, creates hatred among men and promotes contempt towards "this life".

While I haven't ascribed to your general view of "Christianity" (I've found it to be different than that), I can agree that your right to express and quality that view, is valid.

Simply put, though I may not like it, I can see and even understand your reasoning behind it. Even so, I can tell by most of your posts, that you wouldn't likely be out here in the streets PUSHING that idea into people's faces.

No one talked me into being anti-extreme-fundamentalist; it's just something that I've become as a result of seeing certain patterns and blatant offenses. I certainly don't HATE the people who are far-right fundamentalists, I just don't ascribe to their views as a human being.

Jesus may have been anti-homosexuality, but I'm certain He wasn't anti-gay (people). The (unfortunate) message from many of the people who are adamant about preventing or restricting homosexuality, is that they don't really know HOW to love homosexual PEOPLE. (Jesus didn't have that problem, and neither do ALL Christians.)

I will WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree, that history, relgion, philosophy, science...anything, in the hands/minds of divisive personalities, will likely cause the negative effects mankind is keenly aware of. In my opinion, the whole LIFE of Jesus Christ runs counter to "religion" ruling over people.

-Mel-

[trencacloscas]

Even so, I can tell by most of your posts, that you wouldn't likely be out here in the streets PUSHING that idea into people's faces.

The mere idea just sends chills to my spine. "Live and let live" is bigger than any religion or belief.

Only allow me to borrow a sentence from McCulloch in another thread: "I will resist and deny the efforts of some Christians to impose specifically Christian religious values on the rest of us".

[melikio]

"I will resist and deny the efforts of some Christians to impose specifically Christian religious values on the rest of us".

Yep trenc.,

I see your and McC's points.

Maybe theu do not (strictly) classify as "Christian" by some, but I do think they lean toward BOTH truth/justice.

Being overly-compelling and/or forceful about people accepting the Bible and Christianity, isn't really helping people in this world.

I'm fairly certain God has cleaned up a lot of messes we humans have made (in my view of things).

-Mel-

[AlAyeti]

Quote:
Why is the incredible insult of Christians by trencacloscas allowed to remain on this website?

I'm glad we're talking again.

Look and understand, that the real "effect" of many things YOU say...aren't what YOU think.

I defend Christianity. By the words of the Bible. I can do nothing else.

What picture of "Christianity" (good or bad) you yourself are painting (propagating). That is, if someone were NOT already committed to being a "Christian", who do you believe YOU might draw to considering it?

I am scraping off the graffiti put onto Christianty by its opponents. Nothing more nothing less. I have been honest that I am neither a Pastor or Evangelist.

How do you communicate an idea to a human being who is completely new to truly understanding something? What, do you think that people "naturally" fall into "Christianity?

Falling into Christianity is falling into the arms of the real God. Even the most vocal haters of Christianity know that it is presenting no other message. But Christ is open to everyone. Not just college students wanting to party and not have to feel guilty about their behavior.

How did Jesus communicate goodness? What is the effect of God's SPIRIT in human beings, and do YOU "believe" you respresent that AS and human being? (How/why?)

Love your neighbor as yourself. Ah, but! That comes after loving God with all your heart, mind and spirit. Things that must be in order. I represent a Christian that protects other Christians from the pitiful and pitiless attack from those that hate us. Also the pitifully weak arguments from those that hate us. I embrace skeptics and skepticism for I indeed am a skeptic. Am I not fearless to question anyone?

Is it possible that the "Christianity" YOU represent with your words, isn't exactly what God would approve of?

Yes it is possible. Though I do not use my personal feelings nor experiences to fit God into me.

Are YOU perfect?

Perfect? I think my daughter would think so. But she is young and when she learns the truth of Christ will know better. No, I am not perfect. But, Christ Jesus is.

If you aren't PERFECT, what makes you worthy to compel others to BE more excellent than they are?

At what point in your life did "Two wrongs make a right?" I haven't reached that level of enlightenment. And it clear from the Gospels, that God hasn't either. I follow God.

You see Al, these are REAL questions (only a few) that come from the hearts of REAL PEOPLE naturally (even Christians). YOU may have experienced a miracle which changed something in YOU that no one else here could know about, unless they themselves experienced it themselves.

Please believe me I earnestly pray that the world will surprise God again and choose Christ. It is clear that God is not a puppet master but I still wish that people would embrace non-violence and tolerance to let others go down the path that they have chosen. That is very Jesus I think. But there is no way a Christian can allow others to poison them or their family.

The EFFECT of many Christians, is to bring "words" and not really show "love". What is to be expected of that? I KNOW what 1Cor13 says about people who do NOT have love; what it adds up to. No matter how wonderfully "HOLY" anyone may happen to be, they and their efforts add up to ZERO, when love isn't the foundation of their endeavors.

I would hold a Christian accountable if they told you to "go and sin more." As our Lord showed us how to treat others. The exact way we were treated. Any Christian that does not try to bring others into holiness is out of sync.

Now, I don't expect an atheist to adhere to that belief, but I DO expect it of a "CHRISTIAN" who is out here trying to reach anyone for Jesus.

I am not trying to "reach" people that have said they walked away from the Gospel. That is a lesson I learned FROM the Gospel.

So what I'm saying is that much of what YOU see being rejected, denigrated or avoided by unbelievers, isn't REALLY "Christianity".

You are correct. But, that does not take away the evil. Silence is evil as well. Christians cannot vote for evil. Rendering to Caesar the Christian way would be to vote for Godliness, not vote for horror.

There are distinctions to be made in people's behavior, doctrine, countenance, personality and overall willingness to LOVE others as Jesus is known for. You CANNOT bring people NOTHING or POOP, and expect them to do back-flips over it (YAHOO...I'VE BEEN...uh...notified).

A Christian is to expect to be as popular as Jesus was in His time. He told us what to expect.

Al, give me or anyone else who is gay a good reason to hang out with you, or just LISTEN to you...just one. If I'm gay, and happened to know you think the way you do, I'd have to have take a "defensive" posture, to protect YOU and myself. Most reasonable homosexual people aren't out here seeking "conflicts" with people who happen to be "Christians".

Well I've made it quite clear what I think is going on in the homosexual agenda now haven't I?

I would tell you that you are the most important person in the Universe and that Jesus literally knew you and knows you. I would tell you that you are believing the same lie that I do in terms of satisfying our bodies demand for pleasure. Sorry, but I do not believe in the congenital condition of sexual orientation. It is a sickeningly offensive label. I believe that everyone is beautiful and desirable and that it makes sense that people would embrace sexual acts between each other no matter the sex identity between them. I do not condone same-sex sex acts. But I do understand what lust and sexual power controls the mind.

Realize or remember, that people come with baggage, and things like narcissism, sexual issues, honesty, kindness, spirituality and intellect are affected by LIFE ITSELF.

Remember Satan is as real mas the keyboard under your fingertips. He is the father of lies. The concept of the Satan pre-dates even the Jewish nation.

Sure, we can drop a massive ANVIL upon someone and get an EFFECT, but ultimately we don't truly KNOW the outcome of every effort we make to affect others. Some "Christians" give their "label" a very BAD name, by being arrogant jerks.

Confidence is seen as arrogance. I cannot fight that. I will not sell out the Lord of Glory for political correctness.

And no matter one's "philosophy" or "religion", or regardless of what it is based upon, those who represent what it's about have a significant effect upon how other human beings perceive it.

I very much support a secular society. But I very much oppose secularists. I am a bad lamb. This is a thorn in my flesh.

I sometimes WISH I couldn't say that I've encountered MANY "Christians" (wearing that label) who were terribly DIFFICULT people: narcissistic, arrogant, selfish, uncompassionate, hateful...expecting the WORLD to hold their views as being sole valid (in a world of insurmountable views)...etc.

Unfortunately all Christians are gleaned from the human race. But I do not see the totalitarianism that I do from secularistst. Their myths and delusions must be made the law of the land. How hilarious that WE apes are chanting about "human rights."

I try not to judge, but it does affect how I view the "Christianity" they exude. And it's one of the reasons I really don't care if I call myself a "Christian" ever again.

"Christian" was a label put on the followers of Jesus by a lascivious and licentious society and its populace. Sound familiar?

Yes, I've had it with trying to fit myself and others into the various labels which "Christian" represents. Not that I cannot or will not seek Christ in a relationship, but that those who believe they have the right to DUMP Christ upon others, are not people I aspire to emulate...or be dumped-upon by.

Jesus was executed for the "charge" of trying to impose Himself onto others. He rose from the dead on or around the third day to cement that promise. Bujt certainly no "forced conversions."

As you can see from other threads Jesus is still attacked from execution to resurrection.

It is interesting that many people can tell that I'm a Christian, by the LOVE I choose to show them. Amazing...huh? And I know it they don't see anything else, that IS what they should see...at least, it is what I believe is the essence of true Christian behavior.

I present post after post that Christian behavior is an absolute in defining a follower of Jesus. As does other behaviors define the doers of them.

I realize you aren't perfect and you have the views YOU do, but if you don't put love out front...what is it of "Christianity" that YOU think people will garner?

Should I take your advice and never take another CPR or First Aid course and just tell a bleeding or unconscious person that I love them.

Faith without works is dead.

Even tough-love is fine, as long as you prove overall that you DO "love". That is, if you can show that you HURT WITH those you are willing to hurt FOR Jesus, then you can prove something with that; words, facts and doctrines alone will never accomplish that (love) and Jesus Himself proved it.

I haven't stopped thinking that I really somehow insulted you to the point that you would reject Christ. You cannot imagine the pain this has caused me from thinking about your pain.

Look at this? How many times should I forgive my brother? Asked a follower of Jesus to the Lord.

Forever.

Said God.

I preach the Gospel as fact right?

Please forgive me for any insult you feel was "personally" directed at you.

In the Gospels is everything that should guide the believer.

[melikio]

I haven't stopped thinking that I really somehow insulted you to the point that you would reject Christ. You cannot imagine the pain this has caused me from thinking about your pain.

Look at this? How many times should I forgive my brother? Asked a follower of Jesus to the Lord.

Forever.

Said God.

I preach the Gospel as fact right?

Please forgive me for any insult you feel was "personally" directed at you.

In the Gospels is everything that should guide the believer.

I haven't rejected Christ (really), you assume too much about me.

I know what it is like to feel I have cause a person harm.

Al, I can forgive a lot; still, I'm not perfect like Jesus. So, at some point, I will gently deflect some of that pain back AT the source, as an indicator. Not "perfectly" Christian.

Al, I don't take what you say "personally", I don't have the the emotional posture and patience, to let very much of what you say become a direct battle between you and me. All you are doing is "reflecting" what so MANY Christians who THINK LIKE YOU, have already said.

The message in everything you say, isn't ALWAYS right, and I cannot regard your interpretations of many biblical passages. Honestly, I just can't trust what you say here, mainly because your views tend to mix in a lot of poison with the medicine. My soul actually has an aversion to so much of what you manage to communicate. If I were a computer, I might not "feel" the way I do.

I'm careful to not REACT too emotionally (if in an intellectual way), because "civility" matters to me a great deal. I've read the Bible, been to loads of sermons, struggled with something you can only imagine struggling with and practically lost my faith completely. I've survived all of that over the course of a lifetime. I do not expect you to understand it. I don't even expect you to try anymore (kind of a dusting of your feet, by me).

All I can sense that I want of your ideas now, is DISTANCE from me. Sure, YOU likely see it as me rejecting "Jesus", and I'm not even going to argue that with you anymore. For all purposes in YOUR heart and mind, please go ahead and dust your feet (I've told you that before anyway). I'm not going to spend my life, being "wretched", because a particular "Christian" (or even many) do not see me as such. Not saying that I'm "right" and they are "wrong", but that sometimes none of us have it "right" at all. So, you can think what you want about me or any other homosexual you might know about; I surely cannot (and won't try) to change that.

God knows what to do; and that is the best I can do where it concerns me, my homosexuality and the "Christians" who have so much interest to focus upon it. I can count on less than 2 hands, the "Christians" I trust with that "part" of me.

And as things relate to this "topic", the end-result is the same as with any other discussion:

If one has a narrow or limited mindset, the outcomes remain predictable. Perhaps my mindset appears overly-broad and dubious to you. But to "shrink" it down and stand on something I really know only part of, is just plain foolish. I don't assume that i know God's perfect will, and I'm certain enough that you don't know enough about homosexual people, or even God's will for MY life, to say you have anymore truth to shed. From you, all I "sense" are rejection, demands and a standard that most people never even THINK about applying to heterosexual human beings.

You know, it wouldn't shock me for Jesus to come up to me and question my homosexuality, but I doubt that He would handle it ANYTHING like many self-appointed Christian Sex-Policemen tend to. It's just terrible, and people have become practically ridiculous trying to justify it. I don't expect YOU or anyone else to agree with or fully understand homosexuality...but I will ALWAYS (for the rest of my life), defend the HUMANITY of homosexuals (just as I do other human beings).

Narcissism can be a part of any group of people; it's a HUMAN trait. To imply that homosexuality is somehow MORE associated with it than anything else "human", is strangely bordering upon illocial (if not completely ludicrous).

-Mel-

[AlAyeti]

Quote:
I haven't stopped thinking that I really somehow insulted you to the point that you would reject Christ. You cannot imagine the pain this has caused me from thinking about your pain.

Look at this? How many times should I forgive my brother? Asked a follower of Jesus to the Lord.

Forever.

Said God.

I preach the Gospel as fact right?

Please forgive me for any insult you feel was "personally" directed at you.

In the Gospels is everything that should guide the believer.

I haven't rejected Christ (really), you assume too much about me.

I know what it is like to feel I have cause a person harm.

Al, I can forgive a lot; still, I'm not perfect like Jesus. So, at some point, I will gently deflect some of that pain back AT the source, as an indicator. Not "perfectly" Christian.

You have chosen the healthiest path. The thread topic was absurd to begin with.

Al, I don't take what you say "personally", I don't have the the emotional posture and patience, to let very much of what you say become a direct battle between you and me. All you are doing is "reflecting" what so MANY Christians who THINK LIKE YOU, have already said.

I hope many Christians think like I do. I let the Bible guide me in my opinions. And science and history. "Test all things . . ."

The message in everything you say, isn't ALWAYS right, and I cannot regard your interpretations of many biblical passages. Honestly, I just can't trust what you say here, mainly because your views tend to mix in a lot of poison with the medicine. My soul actually has an aversion to so much of what you manage to communicate. If I were a computer, I might not "feel" the way I do.

I am defending a people denigrated in the most obscene and rediculaous ways. Evangelical Christians are the most peaceful and delightful I've ever been around. In a Church filled with them, you would never be able to tell what any of them do in their private lives. But since becoming involved with what I consider "real" Christians, it is somewhat easy to tell the fakes from the genuine.

I'm careful to not REACT too emotionally (if in an intellectual way), because "civility" matters to me a great deal. I've read the Bible, been to loads of sermons, struggled with something you can only imagine struggling with and practically lost my faith completely. I've survived all of that over the course of a lifetime. I do not expect you to understand it. I don't even expect you to try anymore (kind of a dusting of your feet, by me).

That is OK by me. I'll wager a bet that you have experienced many painful things outside of the Church. I know I have far more unpleasant things happen while not living as a Christian should.

All I can sense that I want of your ideas now, is DISTANCE from me.

Sounds very mature and sensible. We would certainly be two unequally yoked Christians.

Sure, YOU likely see it as me rejecting "Jesus", and I'm not even going to argue that with you anymore. For all purposes in YOUR heart and mind, please go ahead and dust your feet (I've told you that before anyway).

That may be a very judgmental statement. I have not given anyone on these threads even the slightest hint of my personal feelings. Don't kid yourself if you think I have. I am just debating unpleasant opinions and have to wallow down in the gutter to do it. But I have seen many a Christian needing help in that exact place.

I'm not going to spend my life, being "wretched", because a particular "Christian" (or even many) do not see me as such. Not saying that I'm "right" and they are "wrong", but that sometimes none of us have it "right" at all. So, you can think what you want about me or any other homosexual you might know about; I surely cannot (and won't try) to change that.

I have never judged the souls or salvation of anyone in any debate. I apply Biblical perspectives to positions presented. You have chosen the right path again (IMO) by not letting others judge YOU. No one has even come close to bothering me on these boards. This is cyber space and who actually knows anything about anyone really. I just enjoy fighting the good fight. Why a Christian thinks they have to take the #$% leveled against them quietly never ceases to amaze me.

God knows what to do; and that is the best I can do where it concerns me, my homosexuality and the "Christians" who have so much interest to focus upon it. I can count on less than 2 hands, the "Christians" I trust with that "part" of me.

I have presented over and over what concerns Christians and others about homosexuals. Until they stop the parading of sexual proclivities wrapped up in civil rights and a new minority culture, this disturbance between straights and homosexuals will not see a quiet moment. I can assure you of that.

"Live and let live," shouldn't include introducing onesself by how you get off; and to h--l with how someone might think about it. I don't even want to know what someone does in their private sexual lives.

And as things relate to this "topic", the end-result is the same as with any other discussion:

If one has a narrow or limited mindset, the outcomes remain predictable.

I would think that self pigeon-holing is a very good place to find a predictable outcome.

Perhaps my mindset appears overly-broad and dubious to you. But to "shrink" it down and stand on something I really know only part of, is just plain foolish. I don't assume that I know God's perfect will, and I'm certain enough that you don't know enough about homosexual people, or even God's will for MY life, to say you have anymore truth to shed.

I beg to differ on my perspective of sexual licentiousness. And that is as far as I will go. But suffice it to say, I am no goody two-shoes. I may not know Gods perfect will but I do know the will of the flesh. I just don't find a right in comparing two wrongs.

From you, all I "sense" are rejection, demands and a standard that most people never even THINK about applying to heterosexual human beings.

You are as wrong on this point as you possibly can be. I apply the exact same standards on sexual deviance in every situation and scenario. I am not narrow-minded to think anyone has cornered the market on deviant behavior.

You know, it wouldn't shock me for Jesus to come up to me and question my homosexuality, but I doubt that He would handle it ANYTHING like many self-appointed Christian Sex-Policemen tend to.

When anyone repents and seeks forgiveness from God . . . their sins are no longer present. They are as far away as the east is from the west. This singular message in the Bible should bring me and you the exactg same joy and promise. It is an absolute Biblical promise.

It's just terrible, and people have become practically ridiculous trying to justify it. I don't expect YOU or anyone else to agree with or fully understand homosexuality...but I will ALWAYS (for the rest of my life), defend the HUMANITY of homosexuals (just as I do other human beings).

Why not just defend the humanity of any human? Why the application of a moniker?

Narcissism can be a part of any group of people; it's a HUMAN trait. To imply that homosexuality is somehow MORE associated with it than anything else "human", is strangely bordering upon illocial (if not completely ludicrous).

I am all for doing away with labels. Cream always rises to the top. Once only behavior is the source of judgment, then the real meaning of evolving will be seen.

I have no doubt that in many things you are probably a much nicer person than me. As you have easily observed (and the moderators) I do not handle the ungodly and anti-Christian very politely at some times. But I also have no doubt that I am on the right path on some things as well. I've walked on so many bad paths I know the better choises to make now.

[melikio]

I understand that people must experience life, and make choices inside of it.

The primary thing I tend to oppose concerning "Christianity" itself, concerns certain believers who think they need to "control" others with their faith (and related social/political practices). I'll always fight against that.

Even so, it's an OLD issue.

People believe/disbelieve various things (true or not), and no one knows all. Arguments and foolish endeavors to control others ultimately fail.

I do believe that God exists, but not to give Christians (or those who say they are), control over those who aren't "Christian".

Jesus had good things to share, and a kind of love which lends validity to everything He spoke of. Human beings (including those who shape their opinions from the Bible), need to put that kind of love FORWARD, and stop witholding it or making excuses for NOT showing it.

If what some "Christians" believe they are showing is "Christianity", then they need to understand just how easy it is for "Christianity" to be held suspect. The life and ways of Jesus however, aren't so easy to criticize or tear apart. That is, even if one doesn't believe in Him "literally", they can learn some inspiring and amazing things as a result of the stories about Him.

I'm tired of "Chrsitians", who think they have AUTHORITY over other folks (espcially those who try to gain such authority via politics and law). I think children should be protected, but so should those who try to live their lives peacfully and constructively. They shouldn't be POKED with the Bible or conservative politics, just because some people THINK or BELIEVE they should be. And until that kind of aggravation from certain zealots and fundamentalists is mitigated, there will be less understanding than is required for people to get along with one another.

And it IS important that people DO get along; for it takes a LOT MORE people out of the CAUSING PROBLEMS category, and places them into the PROBLEM SOLVING category. Even as a deeply-conservative Christian, I could see and believe that; LOVE was the mitigator I referred to above, and it showed me a heck of a lot more than anti-gay sermons and angry-evangelism ever did. I used to sit through the worst abuse, seeking a "CURE" for being homosexual; for a much longer time than many would be able to endure. A test of faith that lasts the majority of one's lifetime, is nothing that can be explained easily, nor can easily summoned as a defense against certain religious know-it-alls, who think they understand ALL the important dynamics of "Christianity", "homosexuality", the "Bible" and "God". That is why so many homosexuals sit silently in the background, until they feel it's time to speak out loudly and directly. I know they'll be opposed, but it's not necessarily wrong that they would protect the humanity they represent. Jesus would defend homosexuals, because of His compassion, not because of the fact that some gay guy/gal managed to avoid another encounter...etc. If avoiding sin absolutely was the STANDARD for human beings, then NO ONE would ever receive a single blessing from The Creator.

The most massive fallacy of many Christians (IMO), is that they feel they have the "authority" to get in people's faces about what they perceive as "sin". All too often, they have it in reverse; that is, they SHOULD be addressing their own sins, setting the example and allow others to choose or accept Jesus of their own free will. But many religious cultures implement the near-insane idea that they should force/compel others to their relgious views, not realizing that God allowed free will for reasons they either haven't considered nor fully understood.

Be all that "ranting" as it may, I'm just one person, sharing my views/opinions. "Live and let live", matters to me. It has real meaning and carries into EVERYTHING I learned while studying "Christianity". I understand that people are sinful, but I also realize READILY, that I'm not in possession of the cure that ails mankind. More specifically, if GRACE, faith, hope and love don't overcome what AILS mankind, then I DO NOT see one iota of hope.

-Mel-

[melikio]

When anyone repents and seeks forgiveness from God . . . their sins are no longer present. They are as far away as the east is from the west. This singular message in the Bible should bring me and you the exactg same joy and promise. It is an absolute Biblical promise.

Al, YOU are just saying what YOU believe is right/true.

Do you know what I went through, really? No, you do not.

I regret to tell you Al, that what you say above isn't true for someone who must face MANY that identify themselves as followers of Jesus (or Bible believers). It doesn't account for much of the bias and ignorance many of those people bring to the table. Many of whom can HATE you, and not even realize it; they are taught the hatred, so it seems "right" or "normal" to them. I've experienced that unconscious hatred countless times from the relative safety of my gay closet. It's awesome to witness, and yes it has an effect...a typically NEGATIVE effect.

God isn't THE problem for most homosexual people, it is the mean, creepy believers who HOUND them with standards they wouldn't even apply to themselves. I know you probably will not or cannot see that, but it does need to be said.

I am not exaggerating when I say that 100% of the altar calls I participated in, were helpful (and no, they didn't FIX/eliminate my homosexuality); while so very many of the average "Christian's" opinions/views were negative and borderline hateful. They just weren't ABLE to handle homosexual people; it happens a lot.

Do you think you help homsexuals, Al? (Why do you think you do?)

-Mel-

[trencacloscas]

Back to the topic...

Fundamental religious beliefs are clearly sociocentric (the social equivalent of egocentrism). The world is seen from only one perspective. Development out of these mindsets can be defined as a successive decrease in sociocentrism. It is the development of an apersptectival, truly pluralist worldview.

Fundamental religion does not offer that as an option. It is definitely a case of - my religion, right or wrong, take it or leave it. And, by the way, if you leave it you are doomed.

It is clear that religious fundamentalists do not want a plural world, the same happens with nationalists. A plural world is too much to handle for extremists of any nature, they feel more comfortable with a predictive, unchangeable and pre-established set of norms. And of course, they only found identity in a group they label as the best, where the good ones are. Self indulgence for the group is one of the true characteristics of fundamentalists.