Why worship a "god" that threatens you?

[OpiatefortheMasses]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

[99percentatheism]

Yes but on the other hand if you don't fear God and continuously cover him with all honor and glory he might just do something ornery, like drop a house on your sister, or cause the sky to fall. Besides, what's a bit of abject groveling compared to all of the things that you can imagine MIGHT happen if you don't. You can't be too careful you know... praise the Lord.

Cliche skeptic comeback. It's fascinating how easily you all dwell in comonality.

Is there a playbook or guide to skeptic group think?

[99percentatheism]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

Extortion? How?

[OpiatefortheMasses]

I think God doesn't threaten anyone and neither does he need anything from us.

Well, whether he wants to threaten people or not "belief or punishment" is a threat. I would have to say since "god" would have the ability to change this scenario at any given point but doesn't would suggest he at least is ambivalent when it comes down to extortion. As for whether or "god" needs anything from us it seems as though he does in my opinion. Why should people punished simply for not believing in him? It seems rather petty. Whether we believe or not should be inconsequential to an omnipotent being unless it had some bearing on his power or influence. After all, how much effect can a mere mortal's beliefs have on "god"?

According to this next part, God doesn’t want us to be afraid.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18

No offense, but if he didn't want us to be afraid then bother with the threat of hell for not believing? In terms of "god's" personality, I don't think he's as interested in love as much as he's interested in obedience. Also, I think a lot of people would a agree that a "perfect love" or the closest thing to it would be unconditional love and "god's love" in unfortunately far from it since it's highly conditional.

And according to this next, God doesn’t need worship from us.

The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25

Again, why all the pageantry then? If he doesn't need us in some way then why is it so necessary to subjugate us?

According to Bible, pure religion is this:

Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
James 1:27

[/quote]

Well, I can see that helping out people in need is a good thing but I honestly don't think you need religion to tell you that. I would call that simply empathy or compassion which really has nothing to do with religion but rather the human condition. As for keeping oneself "unstained by the world", according to the concept of original sin we were already born stained in a sense so that one is a tad dicey.

[OpiatefortheMasses]

Extortion? How?

[/quote]

In the sense that "god" created the scenario (hell, sin, salvation etc.) and forces us to either worship/ love him or be tortured forever in a place of his own design. It's the same principle as someone holding a gun to a person's head and telling them "give me what I want or suffer the consequences". That's extortion.

[wonderer]

Extortion? How?

In the sense that "god" created the scenario (hell, sin, salvation etc.) and forces us to either worship/ love him or be tortured forever in a place of his own design. It's the same principle as someone holding a gun to a person's head and telling them "give me what I want or suffer the consequences". That's extortion.[/quote]

Similarly, in the OT it's very clear that God uses extortion to try to force obedience. For example, serve Me and I'll make your crops grow, make you multiply, bring you into a land of milk and honey, destroy your enemies and make you prosper. Disobey Me and I'll blight your crops, send diseases to your animals, withhold the rain, send famine and diseases and send a terrible people from the the north to do horrible things to you and your children.

[ttruscott]

...

Well, in your scenario you really haven't extorted me but you're not an all-powerful being in control of every aspect of the scenario. In the bible "god" is the one that created and controls every aspect of the scenario. "God" created hell, sin and the "path to salvation" so the options were deliberately limited by him. In the scenario you illustrated it's only comparable if you created it entirely and had the ability to control the outcome. Also, it's demonstrable that a person can die falling off a 500 foot cliff whereas telling someone they'll go to hell for not seeking "salvation" isn't.

You guys have found the holes in ordinary Christian theology and are quite correct in your summations...except you may be wrong because the theology with the holes is wrong and they don't exist.

It is the ol' straw man again but the man believes in himself!!

I was once asked how could GOD tell us the truth about damnaton without coercing our free will (ie in your words, without threatening us)?

Since I get fussed for pretending to know the mind and words of GOD before our earthly existance, I told a little story to illustrate how it could happen. Plus I think better in stories than I do in logic class.

A man was walking along when he came to a fork in the path. As he stood contemplating his choice, he heard a voice from above him, "Just a bit down the left hand path is a tiger waiting for someone to come along."

Somewhat taken aback he looked up and saw an ordinary looking fellow sitting in a small platform in a nearby tree.

"Honest," said the man. "I can see it from here. But don't worry, it's not coming this way.""

Said the traveller, "I guess I'll go down the right hand path then" and gathered up his stuff.

"Ahhh said the man in the tree, "there is a price to pay for my help. You must tell everyone you meet that I saved you from a tiger and you must send them all to me to become my disciples and you yourself must also return to be my disciple."

Now the traveller was caught by surprise. It seemed to him that the man in the tree was only trying to use him to gain followers and increase his status. He was affronted that the guy would try to take advantage of him like that and said so.

He also demanded proof the tiger was there without going down the path himself.

"No proof," said the tree guy. 'You'll just have to take my word for it. As for using you, I save your life but you refuse me anything?"

"But what if I promise to do as you asked and turn right but the tiger kills me anyway?"

"Ahhh," was the reply, "I have a wonderful power and since I can see the tiger very well, I can assure you that the tiger will never kill you, even if you turn back and go down the left hand path. Give me your promise to be my loyal disciple and you are under my protection forever."

"Sounds pretty magical to me," said the traveller. "Show me proof of this power of yours."

"No can do," was the answer, "you must choose without proof by faith and go the way your heart leads you."

While the traveller dithers between a good promise from an ordinary man, to be under magical protection forever that on the surface seems to be selfish and self serving on the part of the man in the tree

and the dire warning of death by tiger which is to be obviously avoided but on the surface looked like an empty threat to manipulate him,

let's look a this dynamic from the point of view that everything the man in the tree said was true.

Therefore there was a tiger but in the abstract, without proof, the traveller was not afraid of it but could contemplate 'death by tiger' intellectually as a possiblility without fear.

Also, the magical promise to be under protection from death forever was almost too good to be true though it seemed so self angrandizing of the most ordinary man in the tree. Without proof either of the tiger or the magic there was no impetus compelling him to believe either way, though he now understood the real truth of the situation and the real consequences.

If the traveller was the type of man to disbelieve that any ordinary person could have access to magic he himself did not posses, well, how might he choose?

If he realized he hated anyone to raise himself up over him, then how might he choose?

If rather he was prudent and thought, "well once I get the promise I can do what I want," or if he thought "sure, the promise IS a small price to pay to possibly avoid death forever," how might he choose?

And so, from his own heart, knowing the consequences but without proof and therefore without coercion because there was no proof 'death by tiger' might be immanent, the traveller made his choice.

Man in tree = God

tree = He claims to be above us but looks ordinary

traveller = all spirits created in the image of God

the promise = the choice to join in loving communion with God and His church forever once we are taught how

and the tiger = the choice to rebel against God's invitation

death by tiger = eternal separation from the source of all love, sometimes called eternal hell

See, it's not so hard for me to concieve of a good and bad choice with the consequences known but since it is without proof, no compelling persuasion either of threat or of promise need sway us.

And if I can think of this little scenario off the top of my head, how much more so could God provide us with a true free will choice in which the full knowledge of the consequences would never disturb our self guiding heart or our self created future. Knowledge of hell fire but without the threatening fear suggested by some.

Of course I think this happened in Christian creation terms in the spirit world before we came to earth.

God, while hiding His divine nature, offered us an invitation to join His church and we learned in full and perfect detail the consequences of accepting (election and the gospel promise) and rebelling (becoming His eternal enemis who will be damned).

But no proof was offered, so we were free to talk it over, decide if we trusted this God who looked the same as everyone else or if He was a liar, a false god with no power and whose love was no better than what we already had.

Since the scriptures are clear that we are born on earth as sinners and cannot choose good, it is obvious this happened before we are born and we became sinners then. Therefore any argment against it using earthly experience as a proof it didn't happen that way, is suspect.

Peace to all, Ted

[OpiatefortheMasses]

...


You guys have found the holes in ordinary Christian theology and are quite correct in your summations...except you may be wrong because the theology with the holes is wrong and they don't exist.

It is the ol' straw man again but the man believes in himself!!

I was once asked how could GOD tell us the truth about damnaton without coercing our free will (ie in your words, without threatening us)?

Since I get fussed for pretending to know the mind and words of GOD before our earthly existance, I told a little story to illustrate how it could happen. Plus I think better in stories than I do in logic class.

A man was walking along when he came to a fork in the path. As he stood contemplating his choice, he heard a voice from above him, "Just a bit down the left hand path is a tiger waiting for someone to come along."

Somewhat taken aback he looked up and saw an ordinary looking fellow sitting in a small platform in a nearby tree.

"Honest," said the man. "I can see it from here. But don't worry, it's not coming this way.""

Said the traveller, "I guess I'll go down the right hand path then" and gathered up his stuff.

"Ahhh said the man in the tree, "there is a price to pay for my help. You must tell everyone you meet that I saved you from a tiger and you must send them all to me to become my disciples and you yourself must also return to be my disciple."

Now the traveller was caught by surprise. It seemed to him that the man in the tree was only trying to use him to gain followers and increase his status. He was affronted that the guy would try to take advantage of him like that and said so.

He also demanded proof the tiger was there without going down the path himself.

"No proof," said the tree guy. 'You'll just have to take my word for it. As for using you, I save your life but you refuse me anything?"

"But what if I promise to do as you asked and turn right but the tiger kills me anyway?"

"Ahhh," was the reply, "I have a wonderful power and since I can see the tiger very well, I can assure you that the tiger will never kill you, even if you turn back and go down the left hand path. Give me your promise to be my loyal disciple and you are under my protection forever."

"Sounds pretty magical to me," said the traveller. "Show me proof of this power of yours."

"No can do," was the answer, "you must choose without proof by faith and go the way your heart leads you."

While the traveller dithers between a good promise from an ordinary man, to be under magical protection forever that on the surface seems to be selfish and self serving on the part of the man in the tree

and the dire warning of death by tiger which is to be obviously avoided but on the surface looked like an empty threat to manipulate him,

let's look a this dynamic from the point of view that everything the man in the tree said was true.

Therefore there was a tiger but in the abstract, without proof, the traveller was not afraid of it but could contemplate 'death by tiger' intellectually as a possiblility without fear.

Also, the magical promise to be under protection from death forever was almost too good to be true though it seemed so self angrandizing of the most ordinary man in the tree. Without proof either of the tiger or the magic there was no impetus compelling him to believe either way, though he now understood the real truth of the situation and the real consequences.

If the traveller was the type of man to disbelieve that any ordinary person could have access to magic he himself did not posses, well, how might he choose?

If he realized he hated anyone to raise himself up over him, then how might he choose?

If rather he was prudent and thought, "well once I get the promise I can do what I want," or if he thought "sure, the promise IS a small price to pay to possibly avoid death forever," how might he choose?

And so, from his own heart, knowing the consequences but without proof and therefore without coercion because there was no proof 'death by tiger' might be immanent, the traveller made his choice.

Man in tree = God

tree = He claims to be above us but looks ordinary

traveller = all spirits created in the image of God

the promise = the choice to join in loving communion with God and His church forever once we are taught how

and the tiger = the choice to rebel against God's invitation

death by tiger = eternal separation from the source of all love, sometimes called eternal hell

See, it's not so hard for me to concieve of a good and bad choice with the consequences known but since it is without proof, no compelling persuasion either of threat or of promise need sway us.

And if I can think of this little scenario off the top of my head, how much more so could God provide us with a true free will choice in which the full knowledge of the consequences would never disturb our self guiding heart or our self created future. Knowledge of hell fire but without the threatening fear suggested by some.

Of course I think this happened in Christian creation terms in the spirit world before we came to earth.

God, while hiding His divine nature, offered us an invitation to join His church and we learned in full and perfect detail the consequences of accepting (election and the gospel promise) and rebelling (becoming His eternal enemis who will be damned).

But no proof was offered, so we were free to talk it over, decide if we trusted this God who looked the same as everyone else or if He was a liar, a false god with no power and whose love was no better than what we already had.

Since the scriptures are clear that we are born on earth as sinners and cannot choose good, it is obvious this happened before we are born and we became sinners then. Therefore any argment against it using earthly experience as a proof it didn't happen that way, is suspect.

Peace to all, Ted

I think there are a few details that are left out here that make this a less than accurate comparison.

1. Did the man in the tree create or at least place the tiger along the path for travelers to run into? In the bible the creation of hell, sin and salvation are all clearly orchestrated by the "god" of the bible so the man in the tree should at least have this in common to make a more accurate comparison.

2. A tiger isn't very good analogy for hell or eternity without "god" since we know tigers are a very real threat in areas they inhabit. We've seen tigers and at least know that they do attack people and unfortunately the same cannot be said for hell or what have you. It really depends on where the scenario in your story takes place. If they were in India the traveler would have a pretty good reason to believe a man in a tree concerning a tiger on the path. If they were in Alaska, not so much. That's the problem with comparing something that is demonstrably dangerous and empirically exists versus something that is at this point mere speculation.

3. In this scenario the traveler can clearly choose another path or go back the way he came without being subjugated by the man in the tree. Unlike the biblical "god" the tiger isn't an eventuality unlike hell for the non-believer according to the bible.

4. Obviously the man in the tree can control certain aspects of the tiger's behavior according to the story. If that's true then why not get the tiger to move along and eliminate the threat to travelers all together? If he has the power to change this scenario but doesn't then either he's ambivalent about people being killed by it or he's deliberately using it to extort people. The fact that the man in the tree seems to crave followers for whatever reason points to extortion.

5. Why does the man in the tree crave people's adoration so much? Is he lonely, insecure or does he just seek to control people? Is it a want or a need that drives him?

I'm sorry, but this scenario is still tantamount to extortion and in my opinion extortion is inherently cruel.

[pax]

"Sounds pretty magical to me," said the traveller. "Show me proof of this power of yours."

http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes ... _intro.htm



http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst ... ciano.html

There is lots more proof.

[OpiatefortheMasses]

"Sounds pretty magical to me," said the traveller. "Show me proof of this power of yours."

http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes ... _intro.htm



http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst ... ciano.html

There is lots more proof.

The remarkable preservation of a body isn't really miraculous. It just depends on the conditions of their burial/ entombment/ what have you.

http://worldend.info/end-of-the-world/w ... -alive.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kUQvtcubhiI/T ... corpse.jpg

As for the Eucharist, there's too much we have to take on "faith". According to the story the priest was the only one who witnessed the transformation so we only have his word that it was a traditional Eucharist before hand. Not that I'd want to call the guy a liar but it seems far more likely a person would embellish the truth.

[wonderer]

Re the tiger story. To be comparable to God, the man would have been the one who put the tiger there, or allowed it to be there. If he was good, he would not have put/allowed the tiger to be there in the first place.

Maybe it was some kind of test. He only wanted followers who would take his word for it that the tiger was there and that if they followed his instructions they would be saved from the tiger.

Many people come along, and for different reasons don't believe the man. Maybe that's silly of them, but for being silly, do they deserve to undergo a horrible death by tiger attack? They were not evil for not believing the man, but still, the man sees fit to let them get attacked. BTW he has the ability that he could magically stop the tiger from attacking, but he doesn't. No, they were foolish enough not to accept my word, therefore they deserve what they get.

Many people don't receive the message from the man. Maybe because there are other men in other trees telling them the tiger is down a different road. Maybe they have noticed so many men in different trees telling them that tigers are down different roads, that they've become confused or cynical and don't know which one to believe, or even think there might not be a tiger at all.

To make it a fairer comparison also, you would have to make it that the people didn't actually see the man in the tree, they read in a book that there was a man in a tree saying etc etc. There was no way of proving if there really was such a man, or that there was a tiger, because the road was a one way road from which there was no return. Also, the book was written 2000 years ago, and seemed to be written in riddles. Nobody could agree on what the actual message was.

And so on.