Is being gay anti-god

juber3 · Post by **juber3** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 6:03 pm

My friend is saved and a born again christian. But one bad thing, hes gay. We started talking and the subject 'is it anti-god' came out. I totally blanked out on the question. whats your view

PS Otseng should this be moved to christianity debate?

adherent · Post by **adherent** » Wed May 05, 2004 9:43 pm

If you are assuming the Bible is true then you have to also assume that God is the author of it through the people who actually put it into writing. Since Jesus and God are the same thing as is also the Holy Spirit, one could also say that Jesus is behind Leviticus 18:22.
It is unarguably whether God/Jesus/Holy Spirit agrees with homosexuality or not. unelss of course you dont belive in either of those said deities

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Wed May 05, 2004 9:49 pm

adherent wrote:If you are assuming the Bible is true then you have to also assume that God is the author of it through the people who actually put it into writing. Since Jesus and God are the same thing as is also the Holy Spirit, one could also say that Jesus is behind Leviticus 18:22.
It is unarguably whether God/Jesus/Holy Spirit agrees with homosexuality or not. unelss of course you dont belive in either of those said deities

Uh, no it isn't. It is inarguable if you believe the work to be literal and infallbile. If you believe the word to be made up of the accounts of fallible humans, one has to question the intent and bias of its individual authors to weed out the truth. Jesus could have said most of the torah is wrong, but we don't know, since we have no account of it. Moses may have said homosexuality was an abomination because it was a canaanite practice, and the Hebrews were awfully xenophobic.

adherent · Post by **adherent** » Wed May 05, 2004 9:57 pm

Since you DONT believe the Bible, being gay for you shouldn't matter. As for christians, homosexuality is unarguable. I forgot to ask, but, in the post topic, what god are they talking about.

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Wed May 05, 2004 10:07 pm

adherent wrote:Since you DONT believe the Bible, being gay for you shouldn't matter. As for christians, homosexuality is unarguable. I forgot to ask, but, in the post topic, what god are they talking about.

I can still defend the other side. The bible also states the earth is flat. Is that inarguable too? I could have sworn it was round...

Here is a site that deals with different christian perspectives on the bible: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_inte.htm

adherent · Post by **adherent** » Wed May 05, 2004 10:17 pm

The bible says the earth is round? I don't think I've read that part of the bible then. Could you quote the verse from the Bible that say that? As for me, it is beyond me how you could not see that the Bible states that homosexuality is wrong. Nothing in the Bible contradicts itself and the verse in Leviticus (i will cease to quote it as you are now familiar with it) clearly states how God feels about homosexuality.

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Wed May 05, 2004 11:15 pm

adherent wrote:The bible says the earth is round? I don't think I've read that part of the bible then. Could you quote the verse from the Bible that say that?

Passages that say the earth never moves:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

Parts that imply a flat earth.

Daniel 4:10-11. “..saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds."

Can only be possible if the earth was flat, as with this passage:

Matthew 4:8 “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory.”

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"

2. Job 38:44 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

Now, I recommend we get back to the original question for debate.

As for me, it is beyond me how you could not see that the Bible states that homosexuality is wrong. Nothing in the Bible contradicts itself and the verse in Leviticus (i will cease to quote it as you are now familiar with it) clearly states how God feels about homosexuality.

The bible clearly states homosexuality is wrong. But who wrote Leviticus and what his intent was is open to debate. God has not clearly stated how He feels about homosexuality. Some Jewish guy wrote that we shouldn't do it, along with trimming beards, eating shellfish, wearing clothes of two weaves, and all manner of ridiculous actions.

adherent · Post by **adherent** » Wed May 05, 2004 11:24 pm

I assume that your assuming the bible is true and there is dictated by God. Well tehre you go...
Those passages could be figurative for all we know.

Quarkhead · Post by **Quarkhead** » Thu May 06, 2004 1:34 am

adherent wrote:Since you DONT believe the Bible, being gay for you shouldn't matter. As for christians, homosexuality is unarguable. I forgot to ask, but, in the post topic, what god are they talking about.

I don't mean to be rude, and all respect to you, adherent, but you could not be more wrong about this. There is no clear concensus among Christians on whether or not homosexuality is a sin. Furthermore, the verses in leviticus are open to interpretation. Allow me to demonstrate:

Leviticus 18, verse 22:

V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee.

This Hebrew translates to "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman, it is forbidden." Well, "forbidden" isn't necessarily exact. The word "toeyvah" can mean "abomination," "detestable," or refer to unclean actions or things (those deeds or items which break the Mosaic code).

Can you see that interpreting this Hebrew is perhaps not quite so clear after all? What does that really mean? Most theologians agree the passage refers to some sort of homosexual encounter - but is it condemning them all? Is it (looking at the context of this part of Leviticus) saying men may not have sex together during a pagan ritual? That two men may not have sex on a married woman's bed? If you think some of these interpretations sound strange, just read up on the mosaic code.

Every passage in the Bible which mentions homosexuality (a word which was not used until the 19th century, by the way, so be wary of your translations!) is open to interpretation. The fact is, it is in no way inarguable that the Bible (or God) condemns homosexuality as a sin.

Furthermore, I find it very interesting that there are Christians who feel absolutely no qualms about picking through the Mosaic code for the nuggets that suit them. Let's assume the verse in Leviticus was clearly stated. It would still be entirely hypocritical for Christians to choose to obey that law, and yet disregard completely the vast majority of the Mosaic laws. Adherent, I wonder - do you shave, or have you ever had a hair cut? (uh oh, you broke the code: Lev 19:27) Do you support the death penalty for adulterers? (yep, Lev. 20:10) Do you observe Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Pentecost, the Feast of Firstfruits, the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles? (no? uh oh. this is commanded in Leviticus 23!) Have you executed your children for cursing you? (Leviticus 20:9 says you should!)

I'm sure you are a good Christian. I can tell by your posts that your faith is strong. But you don't have to think of homosexuality as a sin. Can you not see that you are being massively selective? I would be willing to bet 10 thousand dollars that you break some aspect of Mosaic law almost every single day - as do we all - but you want to pick just this one thing? That isn't even clearly stated to begin with? I feel with great certainty that your understanding of this, and your feelings on the subject, did not arise spontaneously from reading the Bible. Someone has preached this belief to you. If one picks up the Torah (or the OT) randomly, and reads Leviticus, it's not like the homosexuality passage is going to leap off of the page and into your consciousness. The fact that it does stick out strongly points to preconceived notions, taught or held long before opening that book.

adherent · Post by **adherent** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:38 pm

May the Lord have mercy on our souls...

I Corinthians 6:9:
"The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the realm of God."

I Timothy 1:9-10:
"Law is not made for a righteous person but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and fornicators and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound (healthy) teaching."

Romans 1:26-32, "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

Jude 7, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

2 Peter 2:6, "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

It does not matter what WE interpret. It matters what is true and clearly written in the Bible.

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:58 pm

adherent wrote:May the Lord have mercy on our souls...

I Corinthians 6:9:
"The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the realm of God."

Quarkhead did state to be wary of some bibles. Here is the uncorrupted version from the King James:

1 Corinthians|6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians|6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I Timothy 1:9-10:
"Law is not made for a righteous person but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and fornicators and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound (healthy) teaching."

1 Timothy|1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous
man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners,
for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers,
for manslayers,
1 Timothy|1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with
mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be
any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Romans 1:26-32, "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

As I have stated before; not every Christian believes the bible is the accurate, inerrant word of God. In fact, I have a friend who graduated from a Jesuit high school who believes the bible is filled with fallible oral testimony written by fallible men generations after the events described. In such cases, one has to look at historical context and intent. Understand that these books in the bible, of which now there are only one, were once numerous, and which one was true had to be selected by the early church. Some Christian sects have more books in their bible than others. Which do you believe?

It does not matter what WE interpret. It matters what is true and clearly written in the Bible.

No, as a Christian, what should matter is the truth. What is true and clearly written in the bible is not necessarily one and the same. There are a lot of Christians that believe this and, hopefully, if you ever meet one in the dismal state of Alabama, I hope you can respect their beliefs.