Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

[Zzyzx]

.
Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 189 by Zzyzx]

Fair enough, can you prove that "Christians do not believe what the bible says", what evidence verifiable evidence do you have for this conclusion? or do you expect to make statements and not be challenged for their accuracy on a debating forum?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 185 by JehovahsWitness]

.... to me, rock can be spiritual in nature...

Interesting, can you explain what that means and why you believe that?

It's a bit off topic, but I can certainly do it in another thread or in private if you like.
Just a hint: Try Einstein's and Spinoza's pantheism.

Rocks can, and ARE, very spiritual to some people.
( ever look at a Zen garden? )

[Yahu]

Rocks can, and ARE, very spiritual to some people.
( ever look at a Zen garden? )

That is also supported in the bible.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

The false 'rock' is the symbol of the pagan mother goddess. This is confirmed in Jeremiah.

Jer 2:27 Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us.

The 'stock' or tree was the pagan divine father symbol and the rock/stone is the mother goddess.

Again in Isaiah they are poring out drink offering on the 'smooth stones' in the Baalim worship.

Isa 57:5 Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks?
6 Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort in these?

So do you pour out drink offerings to your sacred rocks to the mother goddess?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 185 by JehovahsWitness]

.... to me, rock can be spiritual in nature...

Interesting, can you explain what that means and why you believe that?

It's a bit off topic, but I can certainly do it in another thread or in private if you like.
Just a hint: Try Einstein's and Spinoza's pantheism.

Rocks can, and ARE, very spiritual to some people.
( ever look at a Zen garden? )

If it's "off topic" why did you introduce it to illustrate your point [here ] in this (public) thread?

My understanding is that if someone introduces a point they should be able to defend it when challenged and not simply instruct the challenger to go and find the defense themselves. Still I will stand corrected if a legitimate response is "go read up on this or that subject and find my defense to your point yourself and get back to me." I seriously doubt however that is considered good debating technique.

You made the point, you explain it.

JW

[Yahu]

Rocks can, and ARE, very spiritual to some people.
( ever look at a Zen garden? )

The 'Rock' in the scriptural paganism was a symbol of Asherah, the Canaanite mother goddess, ie 'mother earth'. She was Ki to the Summerians and both Leto and Gaia to the Greeks. She was the mother of mankind and the gods.

In the Sumerian, Ki (earth) was the consort of Anu (heavens). Their children were the Anunki (Anu and Ki), the Summerian gods. According to wikipedia, Anu had two consorts, Ki and Nammu (Namma). What they don't understand is Ki was a nickname of who scripture calls Na'amah, the sister of Tubal-Cain.

A common epitaph given her by the Canaanites was 'she who treads upon the sea' yet she was an earth goddess and had NOTHING to do with the sea. It totally confuses scholars why she has this epitaph. Of course if you know Na'amah was the wife of Noah, the mother of all mankind alive today and she survived the flood on the ark of Noah, that epitaph makes perfect sense.

Mother earth worship is the worship of the ghost of Noah's wife who was a sorceress and had children by one of the four angels that had guarded Eden prior to the flood. Of course the Greeks called that angel Zeus. The Syrians called him Hadad, 'the thunderer'. Scripture originally calls him Euphrates, one of the 'mighty waters' that was responsible for watering Eden.

Mother earth was the mother of who Christians call Lucifer who was actually who the Greeks called Apollo, the ancient pagan sungod who was born on earth after the flood via Noah's wife Na'amah after Canaan had castrated Noah.

If you know how the mythologies correlate, you find some interesting things like the castration of Uranus in the Greek myths is the story of the 'uncovering the nakedness of Noah' in the bible.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 193 by JehovahsWitness]

ROCK SPIRIT

What's spiritual about a rock?
are you looking? are you looking?

.... to me, rock can be spiritual in nature...

Interesting, can you explain what that means and why you believe that?

It's a bit off topic, but I can certainly do it in another thread or in private if you like.
Just a hint: Try Einstein's and Spinoza's pantheism.

Rocks can, and ARE, very spiritual to some people.
( ever look at a Zen garden? )

If it's "off topic" why did you introduce it to illustrate your point [here ] in this (public) thread?

I brought it up because we are discussing what is spiritual, and not only the concept "God" is spiritual. Rocks are spiritual, too. BUT, of course, one has to open his MIND to the possibility.

An illustration that I thought was perfectly obvious in a thread is one thing. Discussing it at length in the same thread derails from the ACTUAL topic of discussion.

My understanding is that if someone introduces a point they should be able to defend it when challenged and not simply instruct the challenger to go and find the defense themselves.

Yup.

I'm able to defend it and I am not instructing you to go and find the defense yourself. I offered to discuss it with you in another thread, and also, in PM.

Still I will stand corrected if a legitimate response is "go read up on this or that subject and find my defense to your point yourself and get back to me." I seriously doubt however that is considered good debating technique.

I think that would be a LOUSY debating technique, and that's why I never use it.

You made the point, you explain it.

Ok... if you insist.

I suggest that you DO look up Einstein's and Spinoza's pantheism, by the way, it's very interesting stuff.

Pantheism is just one way that a rock can be spiritual.

Pantheism is a "thing".. It's real. Some people are pantheists. I'm not.
But I dig it. You can too:

http://www.pantheism.net/

But here is a sample of the kind of thing that I'm thinking about:

By contemplating on a rock, I feel an infinite connection to nature. Every sub atomic particle acts in accordance with the laws of nature which ties us all together, be we theist, atheist, animal, vegetable OR mineral, like rocks.

Rock are very old... sometimes, they date all the way back to the origins of the planet, long before there was anything alive on it. I revere the history the rock represents. I revere where I come from.. the long past. All the humans who could have potentially contemplated the same rock and WONDERED at it is represented by what I can hold in my hand. All those lives. All those wonderful gut-wrenching stories.

And I KNOW that Zen Gardens are considered very spiritual:

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 6ipxq1sa_A

These thoughts move me ... I call them "spiritual".

I could go on for pages and pages.
Will that little bit suffice?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 195 by Blastcat]

Interesting read, thanks.

JW

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 196 by JehovahsWitness]


VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION INCLUDED IN THIS POST !!!

Interesting read, thanks.

JW

My pleasure, JW.

BUT ....

Since this is a debate part of the forum, I'd like for you to clarify something for all of of here. It's REALLY rare when I get the feeling that I'm going to be able to agree with a Christian, so I find us on the brink of something very special.

IF WE CAN AGREE IT WOULD BE GREAT

So, in that "spirit", I ask you:

Do you agree that any rock is more real than your god?

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 196 by JehovahsWitness]


VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION INCLUDED IN THIS POST !!!

Interesting read, thanks.

JW

My pleasure, JW.

BUT ....

Since this is a debate part of the forum, I'd like for you to clarify something for all of of here. It's REALLY rare when I get the feeling that I'm going to be able to agree with a Christian, so I find us on the brink of something very special.

IF WE CAN AGREE IT WOULD BE GREAT

So, in that "spirit", I ask you:

Do you agree that any rock is more real than your god?

I would have to say, that depends on the definition of 'real'. Since Yah (God) is a spirit, that would mean He has no physical form whereas a rock does have a physical form.

So is 'real' mean something physical or just something you can experience.

[marco]

What is the reply to "Why do you hate GOD?" Isn't it "I don't hate him, I do not believe HE exists." "So God DID create evil after all. I just knew it." sort of breaks the pattern and exposes the more hidden things, eh ? or do I have it wrong again?

Once you establish a pattern of being wrong, dear ttruscott, it is hard to break. I have no advice for you here but I can explain your difficulty.

An atheist does not hate God for that would be silly. As you say, he doesn't believe in God.

When I said "So God DID create evil" you should understand that I am a critic reviewing a play. I might comment that Lady Macbeth was the instrument of her husband's own destruction. So too I can look at the fictions in the Bible and work out which one of them carries responsibility for this or that, according to how the writers wrote it down.

I see no problem in all this. It is a way to make the Bible interesting, rather like correcting someone's faulty crossword.