Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.

[dangerdan]

Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....

The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.

Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).

So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.

[dangerdan]

Quote:

How can you guarantee me this?

I garuntee with my word.

Based on…some kind of vague feeling that is inexplicable and subjective that I should take on sheer authority?

What you have named as "slaughtering and cursing" is God's Righteous Judgment.

Er…Righteous because God did it? That is what you mean by that statement isn’t it? And if I’m not so quick to, say, wish death upon children with killer bears, then it’s because of some moral / intellectual defect of mine. Correct?

Why shouldn't God, knowing everything, have the right to pronounce judgement on evil???

Check out the thread about how many people God directly killed.

Perhaps someone should suggest to God to show more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self control. I wonder if the irony would be lost...

It is true. Anything can be rationalized with that argument

Great, I agree, it’s not a terribly intellectual argument then.

but not everything that CAN be rationalized is Truth,...

Amen to that.

...whereas what I have said is (the truth)

Because the bible said so, right?

Quote:

I’ll be a little more specific, if you would do everything the exact same way as God did, would you also curse all women with painful childbirth, like God did?

Absolutely! I most definately would...

...and I will confidently speak for anyone on this issue

Ummm, perhaps it wouldn’t be wise to speak on behalf of the other female Christians on this board when it comes to cursing women with painful childbirth because of the actions of some girl they’ve never met that supposedly lived 8000 years ago for the heinous crime of eating and apple because they were made with a curious nature by the God that is punishing them for displaying this curiosity. Right on God! Someone’s got to keep those inferior trouble making women in line!

They would do the same... and so would you.

Because…let me guess…everything God does is moral, by definition?

I have no shame in speaking on behalf of God's Benevolence (as though He needed me to...). It's one of the easiest things I can possibly do.

Sure would be easy. One simply has to pick any action that God has reportedly done, then call it Benevolence. Can’t get any easier than that.

Anyone that knows Him firsthand would tell you the same thing.

Anyone that knows Santa firsthand (like I do) would tell you the same thing (that he’s great!...oh...and that he exists)

[Amadeus]

Dangerdan:

Judging by your condescending attitude, are you implying that you know more than God? You obviously have a better idea of how to run things!

[The Hungry Atheist]

Judging by your condescending attitude, are you implying that you know more than God? You obviously have a better idea of how to run things!

That's a really cheap shot. He's responding to things that you've claimed; whether they're really the word of God are precisely what's under debate. You can't just claim your beliefs to be unquestionable, because if they don't stand up to questioning then their divine status is surely under doubt, and you don't really seem to be defending them all that well.

I don't doubt that if there is a god of some sort somewhere, then he probably has a much better idea of what's going on than I can, and I'm sure dan would agree. But if someone claiming to speak on his behalf seems to have ideas about morality and history which disagree with experience and logic, then yes, I'd say we do have some better ideas. The assertion that you simply know better because you do and that's the way it is gets you nowhere.

[dangerdan]

Dangerdan:

Judging by your condescending attitude, are you implying that you know more than God? You obviously have a better idea of how to run things!

All I’m saying is it’s good to question, and if things don’t add up, it’s best just to be sincere and say “well, it doesn’t add up” and then consider what this might mean. I don’t claim to know anything spectacular, I’m just thinking about it candidly. Everyone has to make up their own mind, I’m just adding some interesting points to think about. I admit I probably was being rather blunt, and throwing in a joke here and there.

Getting back to the topic - God could really do anything, including killing children, and some will still find a way to rationalize it. It’s just…interesting.

[Lotan]

Getting back to the topic - God could really do anything, including killing children, and some will still find a way to rationalize it. It’s just…interesting.

I don't think alot of people can help themselves which, for me, moves the subject from interesting to frightening. The culture war between Christianity and Islam is a case in point. No amount of reason can sway a firmly held belief.

[chrispalasz]

Lotan:

No amount of reason can sway a firm fact either.

dangerdan:

Based on…some kind of vague feeling that is inexplicable and subjective that I should take on sheer authority?

Go ahead. Mock what you don't understand, but I think this has been made clear... and God is anything but vague.

Er…Righteous because God did it? That is what you mean by that statement isn’t it?

Of course "righteous because God did it". He knows everything; He created everything, and He is all powerful. Does that not MORE than qualify Him for the task?

And if I’m not so quick to, say, wish death upon children with killer bears, then it’s because of some moral / intellectual defect of mine. Correct?

Let's take this one step at a time. Please explain to me in what way you can begin to compare yourself to Elisha the prophet?

Check out the thread about how many people God directly killed.

Link it so I know where it is and I most certainly will.

Perhaps someone should suggest to God to show more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self control. I wonder if the irony would be lost...

Hahahaha - God is the perfect existance of these things! That's like telling you to be more like yourself. And as far as patience goes - all non-believers are examples of God's patience. He wishes that all of His Children might come to repentence in Jesus Christ, and He will wait for every single one - even if you're the last one.

Because the bible said so, right?

Wrong. Because God says so. The Bible only confirms what God has said.

Ummm, perhaps it wouldn’t be wise to speak on behalf of the other female Christians on this board when it comes to cursing women with painful childbirth because of the actions of some girl they’ve never met that supposedly lived 8000 years ago for the heinous crime of eating and apple because they were made with a curious nature by the God that is punishing them for displaying this curiosity. Right on God! Someone’s got to keep those inferior trouble making women in line!

I will happily and humbly speak for any one of those female Christians on this board. I'm sure they would not forget how much greater their blessings are in Christ.

Corrections:
Nowhere does it say that the fruit was an apple.
It's not known how many years ago it was. That is speculation.
Curiosity was not the reason they were disobedient.
The Bible never displays women as inferior. Women are equal.

Because…let me guess…everything God does is moral, by definition?

Of course. Because morality does not exist without God. God is everything that humans deem good, perfectly.

If Satan had God's power... I suppose we would consider killing people, cursing, addiction, and much more to be "moral". The only reason you have a sense of morality is because God's law is written deep within your heart.

Sure would be easy. One simply has to pick any action that God has reportedly done, then call it Benevolence. Can’t get any easier than that.

What logic does this criticism have? And how does it do anything but prove my point?

Anyone that knows Santa firsthand (like I do) would tell you the same thing (that he’s great!...oh...and that he exists)

Fine. Here's my challenge to you: Find me one of these testimonies and I'll debate it out with that person. Otherwise, this argument has already been squashed on its own forum.

All I’m saying is it’s good to question,

Oh? Is that all you're saying? Well then I agree with everything you're saying.

and if things don’t add up, it’s best just to be sincere and say “well, it doesn’t add up” and then consider what this might mean.

Life on Earth doesn't add up. What does it mean?

I don’t claim to know anything spectacular, I’m just thinking about it candidly.

Or attacking it with sarcasm instead of sincerity.

Everyone has to make up their own mind,

Amen! 8)

I’m just adding some interesting points to think about.

Yes. Interesting.

I admit I probably was being rather blunt, and throwing in a joke here and there.

I thought it was funny

Getting back to the topic - God could really do anything, including killing children, and some will still find a way to rationalize it. It’s just…interesting.

There's a consistent flawed line of reasoning here. God is not a human. That's why we call Him "God". He doesn't make mistakes... not ever. So if God kills children - there is absolutely no reason apart from sin to question His actions.

[mrmufin]

Sure would be easy. One simply has to pick any action that God has reportedly done, then call it Benevolence. Can’t get any easier than that.

What logic does this criticism have? And how does it do anything but prove my point?

Among the actions that the Christian version of god has reportedly done are ordering the total annihalation of the Amalekites, flooding the entire world, which it is safe to assume also killed a significant number of people, and maybe even some puppies. Some of us might have just a wee bit of a problem regarding these acts as benevolent.

Anyone that knows Santa firsthand (like I do) would tell you the same thing (that he’s great!...oh...and that he exists)

Fine. Here's my challenge to you: Find me one of these testimonies and I'll debate it out with that person. Otherwise, this argument has already been squashed on its own forum.

And this would be fair play if those of us who are a bit skeptical had access to speak with biblical authors directly. If you're really having a tough time believing in Santa Claus, catch a bus to Rockefeller Center. He's probably there right now. Take your issues up with the Jolly One directly. You might even be able to set on his lap and have your picture taken with him, as evidence for the nonbelievers back in yer hometown. ho Ho HO!

God is not a human. That's why we call Him "God". He doesn't make mistakes... not ever.

Just outta curiousity, how would we know if God made a mistake? I'm really curious as to what type of events --if any-- would be indicative of a mistake on God's part.

So if God kills children - there is absolutely no reason apart from sin to question His actions.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand this statement. Are humans to be skeptical of God's character with respect to his alleged orders to slay the Amalekites --all of 'em; the old, the feeble, the children, their livestock-- in 1 Samuel 15? Just curious because... well, because ordering something like that (and presumably with the foreknowledge of it actually occuring) just seems kinda, well, cruel. But then again, I might just be getting all soft and sympathetic with age.

Regards,
mrmufin

[chrispalasz]

Some of us might have just a wee bit of a problem regarding these acts as benevolent.

That's because, while I do admire the willingness of many to discuss God, the "some of us" you speak of simply have not bothered to truly seek Him or know Him.

Just outta curiousity, how would we know if God made a mistake? I'm really curious as to what type of events --if any-- would be indicative of a mistake on God's part.

This is a nonsense statement. It's the equivilent of me saying: Let me know when the color blue stops being blue. That's ridiculous and it's nonsense. Blue is never going to stop being blue because then it's an entirely different color with a different name.

There is no indicator. God, cannot make mistakes, so of course there is no indicator! If God did make a mistake, he wouldn't be God, which would disqualify him from this observation.

So if God kills children - there is absolutely no reason apart from sin to question His actions.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand this statement.

Let me know if that changes. I'll try to clarify.

Are humans to be skeptical of God's character with respect to his alleged orders to slay the Amalekites --all of 'em; the old, the feeble, the children, their livestock-- in 1 Samuel 15?

Nobody that knows God is to be skeptical of His character. So the answer is no. I say "apart from sin" meaning that the only reason anyone is skeptical is because of their own sinful nature.

Just curious because... well, because ordering something like that (and presumably with the foreknowledge of it actually occuring) just seems kinda, well, cruel. But then again, I might just be getting all soft and sympathetic with age.

I take special notice whenever a statement or line of reasoning from a non-Christian falls down to the word "cruel". Please explain to me exactly why this is "cruel". What, specifically, makes it cruel?

The foreknowledge part, which seems to drag many people down, is actually the key to rationalizing these things. Did YOU know the Amalekites? Any of them? Did you know those people that drowned in the flood? Did you know their thoughts and their actions... or the number of every strand of hair on their heads?

Instead of saying "God shouldn't have killed the Amalekites. Those actions are questionable" the correct attitude is "God killed the Amalekites, and I should be dead too, just as they are dead. But I'm not because He is patient with me." These questions are asked under the precurser that we are not evil sinners. The foundational motives for these questions should be examined more to find out why they are being asked, and the sin in them will be clearly seen.

God has the necessary means to sentence the death penalty to anyone, and truthfully, all humans deserve the fate of the Amalekites. Praise God for His Mercy and Grace, by which we are saved.

[ENIGMA]

Some of us might have just a wee bit of a problem regarding these acts as benevolent.

That's because, while I do admire the willingness of many to discuss God, the "some of us" you speak of simply have not bothered to truly seek Him or know Him.

Yes, Santa would probably come to your house again if you made a good faith effor to seek him out.

Just outta curiousity, how would we know if God made a mistake? I'm really curious as to what type of events --if any-- would be indicative of a mistake on God's part.

This is a nonsense statement. It's the equivilent of me saying: Let me know when the color blue stops being blue. That's ridiculous and it's nonsense. Blue is never going to stop being blue because then it's an entirely different color with a different name.

Except the color blue isn't an entity, it is a property that entities have. There is no etherial plane of existance where "blue" exists. The objects which are blue are blue is a value of a property (namely color) of that particular object.

God is, by all accounts I have heard up to date, not a property, but an entity. As in the example of a blue item, it can be painted red, and thus cease to be blue.

There is no indicator. God, cannot make mistakes, so of course there is no indicator! If God did make a mistake, he wouldn't be God, which would disqualify him from this observation.

So then, the question becomes whether the entity described in your book is referencing an actual entity or just points to nothing that currently exists.

Are humans to be skeptical of God's character with respect to his alleged orders to slay the Amalekites --all of 'em; the old, the feeble, the children, their livestock-- in 1 Samuel 15?

Nobody that knows God is to be skeptical of His character. So the answer is no. I say "apart from sin" meaning that the only reason anyone is skeptical is because of their own sinful nature.

I do not think it either necessary or proper to dignify that with a response.

Just curious because... well, because ordering something like that (and presumably with the foreknowledge of it actually occuring) just seems kinda, well, cruel. But then again, I might just be getting all soft and sympathetic with age.

I take special notice whenever a statement or line of reasoning from a non-Christian falls down to the word "cruel". Please explain to me exactly why this is "cruel". What, specifically, makes it cruel?

If you had the power, would you snap your fingers and remove from existance the 100 worst criminals alive, undoing all of the damage that they have done? Or would you have them die an unnecessarily slow and painful death?

To answer the latter is understandable, but to claim the moral high ground in doing so is not.

The foreknowledge part, which seems to drag many people down, is actually the key to rationalizing these things. Did YOU know the Amalekites? Any of them? Did you know those people that drowned in the flood? Did you know their thoughts and their actions... or the number of every strand of hair on their heads?

Instead of saying "God shouldn't have killed the Amalekites. Those actions are questionable" the correct attitude is "God killed the Amalekites, and I should be dead too, just as they are dead. But I'm not because He is patient with me." These questions are asked under the precurser that we are not evil sinners. The foundational motives for these questions should be examined more to find out why they are being asked, and the sin in them will be clearly seen.

Ok, time for a look to an alternate universe with my trusty funhouse mirror:

[mirror]
The foreknowledge part, which seems to drag many people down, is actually the key to rationalizing these things. Did YOU know the Jews? Any of them? Did you know those people that were worked, gassed, and incenerated to death in the concentration camps? Did you know their thoughts and their actions... or the number of every strand of hair on their heads?

Instead of saying "God shouldn't have ordered Hitler to kill the Jews. Those actions are questionable" the correct attitude is "God ordered the killing of the Jews, and I should be dead too, just as they are dead. But I'm not because He is patient with me." These questions are asked under the precurser that we are not evil sinners. The foundational motives for these questions should be examined more to find out why they are being asked, and the sin in them will be clearly seen.
[/mirror]

[chrispalasz]

Enigma wrote:

Yes, Santa would probably come to your house again if you made a good faith effor to seek him out.

Please refer to the Santa thread and read the posts countering this argument to understand how incredibly invalid it is.

Except the color blue isn't an entity, it is a property that entities have. There is no etherial plane of existance where "blue" exists. The objects which are blue are blue is a value of a property (namely color) of that particular object.

God is, by all accounts I have heard up to date, not a property, but an entity. As in the example of a blue item, it can be painted red, and thus cease to be blue.

Regardless, the concept of the argument still is applicable. Let's take a specific cheetah, for example. You can't say "What is an indicator that this specific cheetah will stop being a cheetah?" There is no indicator. That specific cheetah will always be that cheetah regardless of what it does. It cannot do anything that will disqualify it from being what it is by definition. That was the point.

If you had the power, would you snap your fingers and remove from existance the 100 worst criminals alive, undoing all of the damage that they have done? Or would you have them die an unnecessarily slow and painful death?

To answer the latter is understandable, but to claim the moral high ground in doing so is not.

Are those my only two choices? How does that follow? And of course you can't claim the "moral high ground" for doing the latter; because you used the word unnecessarily. This scenario is a trap due to the way you worded it and it is void of a point in this discussion. God's judgement is necessary in order for Him to be perfectly Just. There are too many problems with this - it can't even be transformed into a valid argument unless you change the entire thing.

The foreknowledge part, which seems to drag many people down, is actually the key to rationalizing these things. Did YOU know the Jews? Any of them? Did you know those people that were worked, gassed, and incenerated to death in the concentration camps? Did you know their thoughts and their actions... or the number of every strand of hair on their heads?

Instead of saying "God shouldn't have ordered Hitler to kill the Jews. Those actions are questionable" the correct attitude is "God ordered the killing of the Jews, and I should be dead too, just as they are dead. But I'm not because He is patient with me." These questions are asked under the precurser that we are not evil sinners. The foundational motives for these questions should be examined more to find out why they are being asked, and the sin in them will be clearly seen.

WWII happened after Christ came, died, and rose again. God did not order Hitler to kill the Jews. Which "Christians" have you been talking to? Only the OT is applicable here, because in the OT, God used the Jews as an instrument for His righteous Judgement. If Hitler knew God... he would not have been the man that he was. You can't possibly be saying that Hitler was a Christian.

I do know that those Jews were sinners like myself. If I ever ended up being gassed in a chamber or tortured... I'm sure I would scream and cry with pain... but I would never curse or reject God. I would gladly die for His name's sake.