Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.

[dangerdan]

Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....

The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.

Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).

So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.

[Amadeus]

God's "point in continuing" was the hope that some of His creation WOULD choose to follow Him and join Him in Heaven some day. He needed to give us that choice: if He didn't we would be mindless automatons programed to love Him...and that is not real love.

Remember, God did not make us sinners, WE CHOSE TO BE, forever separating us from our holy God. (Until Christ, anyway)

[Gaunt]

God's "point in continuing" was the hope

How can an omnipotent/omniscient being have Hope?

if He didn't we would be mindless automatons programed to love Him

God exists. (stipulated)
God has Free will.
God is incapable of sin.
Therefore, it is possible for something to exist that has free will and is incapable of sin.

We exist. (stipulated)
We have Free Will
We sin.
God created us (and thereby created our nature)
God is all powerful.
Therefore, God created us to sin.

[Amadeus]

It is possible, yes... But you have sinned, haven't you? I have. Everyone has. No one can escape it because all our forefathers have set a bad example and we are all separated from God.

Putting the Human race aside, are YOU sinless and worthy of Heaven?

[Gaunt]

Putting the Human race aside, are YOU sinless and worthy of Heaven?

My point is that if I am not worthy of heaven, it is because God made me that way. If you do not accept the conclusion, then you must not accept one of the premises. Alternatively, there may be something I am over looking, but if such is the case you will have to point it out.

[Amadeus]

How do you think God MADE you that way?

[Gaunt]

How do you think God MADE you that way?

Well I very well didn't make myself that way.

Check out the second argument. Note the conclusion is that "God created us to sin." If god created us to sin, then god created Me to sin, in which case, if I am not worthy of heaven it is because God made me that way. Free will doesn't enter into it, as God could have made free willed beings that do not sin (as evidenced by himself.) Whatever quality God possesses that allows him to avoid sin while maintaining free will, he could have passed on to Adam, and thus the whole mess would have been avoided.

[Amadeus]

God did not create us to sin, He created us with the ability to choose to sin (or not to sin). We have all made the choice to sin, and therefore all fall short of the glory of God.

The "sinful nature" was not created by God. It is merely saying that, when Adam and Eve (who were created PERFECT) decided to disobey God, It permanently separated us from God, because He is Holy. God did not make us with a sinful nature, we created it in ourselves.

Fortunately, He gave us a way out... (I think you know what I'm talking about.

[Gaunt]

God did not create us to sin

Then which premise is incorrect?

The "sinful nature" was not created by God.

God is the only one who COULD have created our nature. We cannot create our own nature, as it is an inherent part of who we are, and it is influenced by things outside of our control. Even the phrase "It's in his nature" implies that it is something that we do not have any control over.

(who were created PERFECT)

If they were created perfect, then why did they sin? Perfection means without flaws, and they were obviously flawed if they chose Sin over Not Sin. Free will does not automatically equate to sin (as shown through the first argument). God neglected to give Adam and Eve whatever quality it is that allows him to have free will and to remain sin free.

It permanently separated us from God

So we are being punished for the actions of others. Interesting.

Fortunately, He gave us a way out

Considering we don't get to choose to exist in the first place, that is not reassuring.

[Amadeus]

Ok, instead of nature, let's use a more accurate word...HABIT. You start doing something and after a while, you can't even stop yourself from doing it. God didn't make you develop a habit, God didn't create you with a habit, you created it yourself. THAT is the concept I am trying to get across here.

God is perfect, but He can do anything He wants. Just because He can do something does not mean He must do that thing. Ergo, God can sin, but He doesn't. Adam and Eve were created sinless. They still ahd the ability to sin, and they did. Am I getting any clearer?

[chrispalasz]

There are a lot of people that can try to find a lot of problems with the way God does things. Fine. And it also may be true that if a person had God's infinite power... they would no doubt make some changes to His plan and do things differently.

But I garuntee you this: Whether you understand God's plan or not, if you had God's infinite power AND infinite WISDOM... you would be running things the EXACT SAME WAY.8)

concerro:

How does that have anything to do with what I said? Yes, that verse is there, and yes, we are no longer punished for the sins of our fathers. I was just stating that that is when we (as the human race) decided to rebel against God.

We are no longer punished? If is is unfair why did it ever happen, and if it is fair why does it still not happen? Either God is wrong then or he is wrong now. Either way him being wrong throws that perfection theory out the window.

Please clarify. What are you trying to say here? How is God wrong either way? Please state more clearly the issue you are addressing and the points you are making.

God knew before he made us that we were not up to his expectations so what was the point in continuing? that is like someone intentionally creating a substandard product and then getting mad when it fails. if a person did that they would be considered stupid or crazy but God does it and it is ok.

God can do many things that humans can't do - and it is not only okay, but it is Good and Just. This argument isn't valid. You're comparing humans to God.

Considering that my eternal life was taken because of Adam how did I get a choice in anything. Why does God require sacrafice anyway. Killing an animal or a person (jesus's sham scarafice) does not change the fact that you did something wrong. If someone slaps my face and kills a cockroach for me am I supposed to be their friend?

Sounds like you need answers. http://www.carm.org
You can find them here. Answers to your questions. Scroll to the bottom of the page and look at the lower left corner. There's a category: Questions on: (and then it lists categories).

But to answer some of your inquiries: God requires a sacrifice because we are sinners and He is Just. We need to pay our debt to Him in some way... we owe Him big time! Once again... you are comparing humans to God, so your analogy is false. God is not a human. Humans are imperfect images of God (save for Jesus Christ). We should not be trying to take what God says and does to make Him be more like US... now THAT would be ridiculous! It's the other way around. We should be taking God as an example and making ourselves more like Him!

God is just.....we can never repay our sins(in bold print above)
The fact that I wont live forever because of Adam counters that, just argument. I am sure I can find more if neccesary, and I consider that statement in bold print to be illogical

Hah. Give me a break. You would have done the same thing. Just because Adam did it first, doesn't make your sins his fault!

If God had control of evil there woudl be no evil. Since God in the creator of everyting supposedly then evil came from God also. How can evil come from a perfect and just being.

I've already responded to this statement in the very same post, in fact, JUST below what you quoted from it:

"The mysteries of good and evil are very numerous. We only know what the Bible says about it. The rest is philisophical and unimportant. But... if you like that sort of thing, then go ahead and think about it. Two good sources are:

St. Augustine: The Problem of Good and Evil (very awesome book)
St. Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologica (He tackles the issue)"

Simple word choice modifications:
(posted for Gaunt)

God's "point in continuing" was so that some of His creation WOULD choose to follow Him and join Him in Heaven some day. He needed to give us that choice

He does not hope. He does not take risks.

God exists. (stipulated)
God has Free will.
God is incapable of sin.
Therefore, it is possible for something to exist that has free will and is incapable of sin.

Logical reasoning. False stipulations. The term free will associated with God cannot have the same meaning that it does for humans BECAUSE God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.

Reconciling God's free will:
God's Will is free. It is enslaved to nothing. It is His own. But God does not make choices in the present tense. Would that even make any sense? If God is infinite, existing independant of time and matter (the dimensions of this world), how can we confine His Will to these dimensions? We cannot.

We exist. (stipulated)
We have Free Will
We sin.
God created us (and thereby created our nature)

Stop here. There's a flawed assumption. God created our nature. Adam and Eve were perfect in the sense that they were blameless before God. Our sinful nature came about after eating from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. The process now falls apart. As for the Free Will issue... it's not small. We can tackel that in the Predestination forum.