The Evidence War

[chrispalasz]

Please take the time to read this entire post.

This thread is created for posts that:

1. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity holds the Truth about God and humanity.

2. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity does not hold the truth about God and humanity.

Evidence posted must be according to one of the two definitions, or it will not be deemed sufficient as evidence. All debate arising from posted evidence should be addressed using counter-evidence [counter-evidence defined as evidence that goes against or attempts to falsify or discredit evidence already posted].

Evidence, on this thread, is defined as follows:

1. Of or having to do with a material object that demonstrates, makes clear, or ascertains the truth of the very fact or point in issue;

2. A matter of record, or writing, or by the testimony of witnesses, enabling one to pronounce with certainty; concerning the truth of any matter in dispute.

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

In an effort to respond to the initial post I will offer 2 pieces of what I consider evidence.

1. The existence of Israel. One of many fufilled promises of God, to keep his people. Other "greater" cultures have come and gone, yet they have stayed in tact and retained the texts that found Christianity.

2. The existence of anti-semitism.

I believe the purpose of my God is to answer the questions that rational thought cannot answer. Let's look at anti-semitism. There is not a rational way to explain such specific racism over time, other than a hatred of the promises of God. Therefore, one must ask where this hatred comes from. The same philosophy that makes people love God and his people, (spiritualism) must therefore be the force that drives people to hate. Unless someone can offer a rational explanation of anti-semitism. Since this specific hatred thoughout their existence cannot be answered by rational thought, where does it exist. Why does the existence of Israel envoke such emotional responses in people throughout the world? In my mind, Israel exists as a physical promise of God, therefore the devil will try to discredit any physical evidence. Hence, the appearance of anti-semitism. I believe the same applies for the existence of evil and suffering in general. Unless someone can offer a rational explanation of these things.

How is antisemitism a proof of god?The fields of psychology and sociology offer rational reasons for all 'isms and human thoughts with empirical proof.I cannot reproduce thousands of pages of research reports in this single page.Is the existence of muslims and jihad a proof of allah?I can understand the religious passion and belief in god in your arguments.But that is not the proof my friend.

[youngborean]

How is antisemitism a proof of god?The fields of psychology and sociology offer rational reasons for all 'isms and human thoughts with empirical proof.I cannot reproduce thousands of pages of research reports in this single page.Is the existence of muslims and jihad a proof of allah?I can understand the religious passion and belief in god in your arguments.But that is not the proof my friend.

I was not offering a proof of the existence of God. I don't believe that the post is trying to ask for that either. The post seemed to be asking for evidence of Truth of Christianity. These are things that are evidence of proof to the message of the Bible and Christianity. The nation of Israel exists according to the promise God gave to Abraham, as well all nations of the world have been blessed becasue of his Seed (Jesus). These are pieces of evidence to the Truth in the Message of the bible that I believe the post was asking about.

Also, you did not offer a rational explanation to anti-semitism in response to my post. You only stated that other people can do it. Your point about Jihad is not the same to me per se. Although, I will say that the fevor of Jihad is based on spiritualism. However, it could more closely be related to Zionism, which doesn't fit the model I was putting forth. Neither prove the existence of a diety, although the results can be evidence of the promises of those proposed deities. The God of Israel promises to keep Israel inspite of Great trouble that Israel has around it. Israel has been kept. This is evidence either way. You can right it off as circumstantial, however that doesn't negate it's relavance to the original post. I think you are focusing on proving the existence of a deity, when I was citing physical evidence for my beliefs.

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

I was not offering a proof of the existence of God. I don't believe that the post is trying to ask for that either. The post seemed to be asking for evidence of Truth of Christianity. These are things that are evidence of proof to the message of the Bible and Christianity. The nation of Israel exists according to the promise God gave to Abraham, as well all nations of the world have been blessed becasue of his Seed (Jesus). These are pieces of evidence to the Truth in the Message of the bible that I believe the post was asking about.

Also, you did not offer a rational explanation to anti-semitism in response to my post. You only stated that other people can do it. I think you are focusing on proving the existence of a deity, when I was citing physical evidence for my beliefs.

From your quotes "The nation of Israel exists according to the promise God gave to Abraham,as well all nations of the world have been blessed becasue of his Seed (Jesus). These are pieces of evidence to the Truth in the Message of the bible that I believe the post was asking about."
This can be an evidence only if you can prove that "God gave such a promise to Abraham".Unless you cannot prove that claim, this doesnt become an evidence.It is just a statement.

Logically its like this.

premise 1: God gave a promise to Abraham.

premise 2: Israel exists.

assumption-thus bible is true.

premise 2 is proved.But premise 1?Prove that also.Only if both claims are proved will the assumption hold good.

If muslims argue like this

premise 1:quran promised rewards to muslims

premise 2:islamic nations have oil and are wealthy

assumption : Thus quran is true.

compare the 2 arguments.simple.

[youngborean]

The bible states that God gave that promise to Abraham. The bible is the basis for my belief not a Philosophical proof of a deity. You are correct in asserting that my evidence does not prove the existence of God. It is only evidence to the fufillment of the promises that the God of the Bible has made. Seeing these physical promises promotes my faith that the book is true. And because I believe the book is true, it also makes me believe that it's deity is the one that I will worship. Now that which makes me be a deist is definitely caused by faith alone. But my belief that the God of the Bible is God is based partly on Physical evidence stated above, which is why I have chosen Christianity. I suggest you don't try and get to hung up on the philosophy of what I am saying, but rather try and think about the points of evidence. I am not arguing for or against the existence of Allah, I am pointing to the evidence that makes me choose the Bible and the God of that bible. However, I am sure the model you are showing is the evidence that many Muslims use to choose Islam. Now differences between deities are assessed though persons expectations of qualities becoming of a deity through their own spiritual yearning. On this point I would choose the God of the Bible over the God of Islam.

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

The bible states that God gave that promise to Abraham. The bible is the basis for my belief not a Philosophical proof of a deity. You are correct in asserting that my evidence does not prove the existence of God. It is only evidence to the fufillment of the promises that the God of the Bible has made.

It is an evidence to the fulfilment of god's promises, but not an evidence to the eixtence of god.!!!!!

Seeing these physical promises promotes my faith that the book is true. And because I believe the book is true, it also makes me believe that it's deity is the one that I will worship. Now that which makes me be a deist is definitely caused by faith alone. I suggest you don't try and get to hung up on the philosophy of what I am saying, but rather try and think about the points of evidence. .

First of all the "promises" have to be proved.And next faith should be based on solid fundamental reasoning and judgement.The evidence provided is not of much use without evidence being provided for the promise being made.Claims of a promise cannot be an evidence.If you say faith need not have any reason or logic,I cannot talk back and will be silenced.

I am not arguing for or against the existence of Allah, I am pointing to the evidence that makes me choose the Bible and the God of that bible. However, I am sure the model you are showing is the evidence that many Muslims use to choose Islam. Now differences between deities are assessed though persons expectations of qualities becoming of a deity through their own spiritual yearning. On this point I would choose the God of the Bible over the God of Islam.

Before assessing differences between deities we have to assess whether deities themselves exist.If we are given a choice of marrying cindrella or juliet, before deciding on whom to marry, we have to decide whether they existed or not.

(one secret) I am happy that you choose christianity Christianity promotes love and non-violence.So in that way I accept that your decision is a good one.

[Colter]

The bible states that God gave that promise to Abraham. The bible is the basis for my belief not a Philosophical proof of a deity. You are correct in asserting that my evidence does not prove the existence of God. It is only evidence to the fufillment of the promises that the God of the Bible has made. Seeing these physical promises promotes my faith that the book is true. And because I believe the book is true, it also makes me believe that it's deity is the one that I will worship. Now that which makes me be a deist is definitely caused by faith alone. But my belief that the God of the Bible is God is based partly on Physical evidence stated above, which is why I have chosen Christianity. I suggest you don't try and get to hung up on the philosophy of what I am saying, but rather try and think about the points of evidence. I am not arguing for or against the existence of Allah, I am pointing to the evidence that makes me choose the Bible and the God of that bible. However, I am sure the model you are showing is the evidence that many Muslims use to choose Islam. Now differences between deities are assessed though persons expectations of qualities becoming of a deity through their own spiritual yearning. On this point I would choose the God of the Bible over the God of Islam.

Youngboren,

To pick up on your anti-Semitism idea one must understand that the racism comes from the persistent claim by the Jews that "they" are Gods chosen people. They were chosen yes but to be the torch bearers of the monotheistic spiritual message of one God for all of the earth. In a nut shell it went to their heads, they became racily arrogant, persecuting all subsequent prophets even the Son of God who stood before them. Our Jewish brothers lost their sponsorship and the responsibility of carrying the spiritual message was given to other peoples.
You are correct that anti-Semitism is more of a learned racism but hardly justified. When I talk with middle easterners like Syrians invariably the "chosen people" thing comes up. The Hebrews and Palestinians are cousins.

[youngborean]

Youngboren,

To pick up on your anti-Semitism idea one must understand that the racism comes from the persistent claim by the Jews that "they" are Gods chosen people. They were chosen yes but to be the torch bearers of the monotheistic spiritual message of one God for all of the earth. In a nut shell it went to their heads, they became racily arrogant, persecuting all subsequent prophets even the Son of God who stood before them. Our Jewish brothers lost their sponsorship and the responsibility of carrying the spiritual message was given to other peoples.
You are correct that anti-Semitism is more of a learned racism but hardly justified. When I talk with middle easterners like Syrians invariably the "chosen people" thing comes up. The Hebrews and Palestinians are cousins.

I am not sure that the arrogance that you seem to infer comes up among any Jews. I think it is an excuse for others to hate. I don't really understand your position, so I hope you could elaborate. Is the rationale in that the Jews deserve anti-semitism for their claim of Choseness before their own God? I still find that to be even more evidence of the spirituality of this kind of hatred, because why would anyone who doesn't have the same God care? Unless, their own spiritual insecurity was informing their decision to hate.

[bernee51]

The Hebrews and Palestinians are cousins.

Not only that they are Semites as are all who are descended from Shem, namely:

From Dictionary.com : A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.

So if I was tospeak in a derogatory manner towards Jews I could be accused o anti-semitism. Likewise, if a Jew when they speak in a derogatory manner towards an Arab or a Palestinian it is anti-semitic.

Unfortunately the phrase has been 'dumbed down' to such an extent that general usage would give the impression that it meant anti-Jewish specifically.

[Colter]

Youngboren,

To pick up on your anti-Semitism idea one must understand that the racism comes from the persistent claim by the Jews that "they" are Gods chosen people. They were chosen yes but to be the torch bearers of the monotheistic spiritual message of one God for all of the earth. In a nut shell it went to their heads, they became racily arrogant, persecuting all subsequent prophets even the Son of God who stood before them. Our Jewish brothers lost their sponsorship and the responsibility of carrying the spiritual message was given to other peoples.
You are correct that anti-Semitism is more of a learned racism but hardly justified. When I talk with middle easterners like Syrians invariably the "chosen people" thing comes up. The Hebrews and Palestinians are cousins.

I am not sure that the arrogance that you seem to infer comes up among any Jews. I think it is an excuse for others to hate. I don't really understand your position, so I hope you could elaborate. Is the rationale in that the Jews deserve anti-semitism for their claim of Choseness before their own God? I still find that to be even more evidence of the spirituality of this kind of hatred, because why would anyone who doesn't have the same God care? Unless, their own spiritual insecurity was informing their decision to hate.

I've run into this misunderstanding before. One of my good friends is Jewish, I have no problem with Jews. You are correct in that the discrimination towards Jews is mostly "learned" rather than experiential cultural differences. What I was trying to point out was the Middle eastern hate problem principally between Islam and Judaism. When orthodox Jews continue to proclaim that they are Gods chosen people to the exclusion of all the other peoples of the earth it irritates their Semitic cousins. When you compound that with Christian theology that sagest that Christians are adopted because the "chosen people" rejected Christ then that continues to perpetuate discrimination.
"The moment you lose sight of the spirit sovereignty of God the Father, some one religion will begin to assert its superiority over other religions; and then, instead of peace on earth and good will among men, there will start dissension's, recriminations, even religious wars, at least wars among religionists." UB

[Lotan]

In my mind, Israel exists as a physical promise of God, therefore the devil will try to discredit any physical evidence. Hence, the appearance of anti-semitism. I believe the same applies for the existence of evil and suffering in general. Unless someone can offer a rational explanation of these things.

The root of anti-semtiism can be found in the gospels. The passion narratives are, among other things, a polemic created by early Christians, who were themselves a sect of Judaism, against rival sects. At this level, the claim that Jesus was crucified because of the Jews who "could not see" was harmless enough. The situation changed drastically when Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire. The Holocaust was the logical conclusion of Christian Europe's racism.