Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Regens Küchl
Scholar
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:09 am

Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #1

Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

User avatar
LilytheTheologian
Student
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:59 pm

Post #121

Post by LilytheTheologian »

[Replying to post 119 by Zzyzx]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your post, and I see you addressed your objections to my post. I missed it until now, and now I have to go to bed. Hopefully, I can check in tomorrow, or later today, really. As it is, I have stayed up WAY too late, a bad habit of mine.

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9486
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 228 times
Been thanked: 118 times

Post #122

Post by Wootah »

LilytheTheologian wrote:
liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Regens Küchl]

Let me understand: the question is why no one alive was buried with a corpse with a stone rolled in front of it thereby sealing their own fate?

Or is the question, "Why didn't God make give better evidence?" The implication is that if we had a detailed description of the process of "being raised" then everyone, obviously, would believe....



...would you believe if there were a gospel claiming that? There are narratives that describe healings quite vividly. Do you believe them?


My guess is, what really bothers you is theological and not historical. Underlying your specific question is really the age old question of why God relates to humans in general as (claimed by Christians) he does. It can be put in a paragraph "Why doesn't this supposed god make me believe in him? I mean, if I were god, I would make people believe in me"
Absolutely right. They cannot accept that God does not do their bidding, but his own.
Moderator Comment

Please review the Rules.
Hi Lily,

We request that members do not post one liners that are of that 'you're right' variety. Far better to click the like this post option or a mpg donation. Also do not assume what others think.

______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

User avatar
Regens Küchl
Scholar
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:09 am

Post #123

Post by Regens Küchl »

[Replying to post 122 by Wootah]

So curious that now for 13 pages of debate no one save FarWanderer comprehends my simple question.
The collective dodging an answer is impressive and could reach forum record.

My question has nothing to do with wanting Yahwe to do my bidding.

I AM JUST ASKING FOR THE R E A S O N YAHWE HAD FOR WISHING NO WITNESSES.

Could the unwillingness to try giving an answer really be some sort of collective cognitive dissonance before a debate question?

The very fact that I never saw that quantity of doging an apologetic question before proves that this question is a hurting spot for christian theology!

Of course - If believers feel it true what FarWanderer stated, that Yahwe is too weak to perform resurrection before witnesses than I understand the reason they have to dodge and dodge my question.

Actual resurrection witnesses would of course not make everyone believe - So god willed free will would stay intact.

As it stands the blurry witnessless actual resurrection makes for the same laughing stock as the miracle healings which never closed a swordwound or regrow a severed limb.

Instead chronically demonpossession, blindness and lamness was cured by Jesus.
Exacly the threesome that can 1) most easily be hoaxed or 2) have hysterical causes which can naturally be cured by placebo like faith healing.

I answered repeatedly why your problematic sealed tomb would be not a problem and now please answer my question:
WHY DID YAHWE WISH NO WITNESSES FOR THE ACTUAL RESURRECTION?

Or is your omnipotent god a Jesus Myther perhaps ?

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #124

Post by Danmark »

Regens Küchl wrote: [Replying to post 122 by Wootah]

So curious that now for 13 pages of debate no one save FarWanderer comprehends my simple question.
The collective dodging an answer is impressive and could reach forum record.

My question has nothing to do with wanting Yahwe to do my bidding.

I AM JUST ASKING FOR THE R E A S O N YAHWE HAD FOR WISHING NO WITNESSES.

Could the unwillingness to try giving an answer really be some sort of collective cognitive dissonance before a debate question?

The very fact that I never saw that quantity of doging an apologetic question before proves that this question is a hurting spot for christian theology!

Of course - If believers feel it true what FarWanderer stated, that Yahwe is too weak to perform resurrection before witnesses than I understand the reason they have to dodge and dodge my question.

Actual resurrection witnesses would of course not make everyone believe - So god willed free will would stay intact.

As it stands the blurry witnessless actual resurrection makes for the same laughing stock as the miracle healings which never closed a swordwound or regrow a severed limb.

Instead chronically demonpossession, blindness and lamness was cured by Jesus.
Exacly the threesome that can 1) most easily be hoaxed or 2) have hysterical causes which can naturally be cured by placebo like faith healing.

I answered repeatedly why your problematic sealed tomb would be not a problem and now please answer my question:
WHY DID YAHWE WISH NO WITNESSES FOR THE ACTUAL RESURRECTION?

Or is your omnipotent god a Jesus Myther perhaps ?
The problem with your question is that it assumes YHWH exists and had anything to do with the alleged resurrection. So your question cannot be answered without agreeing to those assumptions, assumptions you don't agree with yourself.

You've posed a rhetorical question, and have received answers accordingly.

This is an event that did not happen, and it leaves the Christian apologist with only one answer: God didn't want to. We've seen many versions of permutations on this answer, the main one being:
"Well... God wants you to believe based on faith, not absolute knowledge."
Never made much sense to me, since apologists are all over the idea that "God has clearly declared his presence a creator of everything."

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

Post #125

Post by FarWanderer »

[Replying to post 123 by Regens Küchl]

Actually, Lily answered the question well enough, I think:
LilytheTheologian wrote:WHERE was God going to effect the Resurrection "in plain sight?" On the Cross, prior to Jesus' burial? Had there been witnesses to the Resurrection the people would have done just as you are doing: declared that Jesus had not really died or that he was a ghost or that the whole Resurrection was a hoax. The Pharisees would have ascribed the Resurrection to Satan's magic; the populace would have been moved for a short time only, then, not being faithful of heart, they would have persecuted the apostles and anyone else who chose to follow Christ.
And if you think about it, her answer amounts to more or less the same as mine. Miracles in front of people not predisposed to believe them just don't happen!

Absolutely any lack of evidence can be explained. It's peeeerrrrfect!

User avatar
Regens Küchl
Scholar
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:09 am

Post #126

Post by Regens Küchl »

[Replying to post 124 by Danmark]

A question about the (Theo)logic in a story is legitimate independently from believing it true or not.
If in a Tolkien forum I would ask for the reason why Gollum wanted so desperately to keep his precious my question would hardly be desperately dodged and then falsely called rhetoric.

I understand christianity good enough to know that what not happened god did not want to happen at the resurrection.

The only thing I hoped to achieve was an answer in the way of:

GODS REASON FOR NOT WISHING ACTUAL WITNESSES FOR THE RESURRECTION WAS . . .

Here is a related question I asked myself recently:

WHY DID CHRIST COME EXACTLY AT THE TIME HE DID.(And not for example a few hu.dred years earlier or later.)

I googled my question and there got relativy satisfying answers:
My favorite found answer is that exactly that time the PAX ROMANA was achieved so that traveling was easier than ever. The divine plan was that Christ had to come exactly that time so that afterwards the holy apostles would have no problem traveling the world bringing the gospel everywhere.
Yes, that makes sense. A clear answer without a dodge.

A rhetoric question is one that expects no answer, so my question was not rhetoric.

If it stays to receive no answer I will myself try to crawl into the skin of a christian apologetic and post an answer I can think of here.

I think for that I will try to identify with the world renowned and never defeated christian author JAMES PATRICK HOLDING.

User avatar
LilytheTheologian
Student
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:59 pm

Post #127

Post by LilytheTheologian »

[Replying to post 125 by FarWanderer]

Actually, my answer is just the opposite of yours.

I proposed that Jesus' post-Resurrection appearance, in public, before thousands, would have been before people predisposed to miracles, people not predisposed to miracles, and people who didn't care whether a miracle had occurred or not.

Miracles that happen in front of people not disposed to believe them DO happen and HAVE happened. Jesus performed 37 miracles that are enumerated in the Bible, and many of them were performed in front of people NOT predisposed to believe them. The people cried "Hosanna!" at the time of the miracle, and they said they believed, but being people of little faith, when Jesus was no longer "in plain sight" and reinforcing that faith day-by-day, they ceased to believe. They were fickle, fair-weather friends, the kind no one needs.

Regens, God does not "think" or "reason." God is utterly simple; he is not complex. Even if he did think or reason or do what humans do, no human would be able to know his reasons just like we do not know another human's reasons for doing one thing over another.

The disciples were persecuted. It was once supposed that Mark wrote a low Christology because he was writing for the first Church who were being persecuted for their beliefs. To me, the fact that the apostles could travel does not seem a good reason. They could be heard worldwide today. I, myself, believe Christ came when he did so no photos of him would be taken, no TV interviews done, etc. It takes no faith at all to believe something that is right before your eyes. I believe Barack Obama exists. I believe he is the president of the US. I know people who do NOT believe Barack Obama's words about the killing of bin Laden. I don't know enough about politics to make an informed opinion on that, however, I believe bin Laden is dead. Christ wants people to come to him in faith and in love. Had he left behind irrefutable proof to even the most hardened of doubters, there would be no necessity for faith.

User avatar
Regens Küchl
Scholar
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:09 am

Post #128

Post by Regens Küchl »

[Replying to post 124 by Danmark]

A question about the (Theo)logic in a story is legitimate independently from believing it true or not.
If in a Tolkien forum I would ask for the reason why Gollum wanted so desperately to keep his precious my question would hardly be desperately dodged and then falsely called rhetoric.

I understand christianity good enough to know that what not happened god did not want to happen at the resurrection.

The only thing I hoped to achieve was an answer in the way of:

GODS REASON FOR NOT WISHING ACTUAL WITNESSES FOR THE RESURRECTION WAS . . .

Here is a related question I asked myself recently:

WHY DID CHRIST COME EXACTLY AT THE TIME HE DID.(And not for example a few hu.dred years earlier or later.)

I googled my question and there got relativy satisfying answers:
My favorite found answer is that exactly that time the PAX ROMANA was achieved so that traveling was easier than ever. The divine plan was that Christ had to come exactly that time so that afterwards the holy apostles would have no problem traveling the world bringing the gospel everywhere.
Yes, that makes sense. A clear answer without a dodge.

A rhetoric question is one that expects no answer, so my question was not rhetoric.

If it stays to receive no answer I will myself try to crawl into the skin of a christian apologetic and post an answer I can think of here.

I think for that I will try to identify with the world renowned and never defeated christian author JAMES PATRICK HOLDING.

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #129

Post by Danmark »

Regens Küchl wrote: [Replying to post 124 by Danmark]

A question about the (Theo)logic in a story is legitimate independently from believing it true or not.
If in a Tolkien forum I would ask for the reason why Gollum wanted so desperately to keep his precious my question would hardly be desperately dodged and then falsely called rhetoric.
That' a good comparison.
The reason I think such questions are silly is because eventually the answer is:
Because that's what the writer wrote.
If we take the question seriously, the reason there were no witnesses to the resurrection is because there was no resurrection to witness. To ask why God would have a resurrection with no witnesses suggests another answer:

By the time the Church might have been inclined to suggest there were witnesses to the actual resurrection, the various traditions about different witnesses after the alleged events had become too well entrenched. Re: the ascension, there was no tradition, so later writers were able to come up with their nice, neat "500" figure about anonymous witnesses without fear of contradiction.
Last edited by Danmark on Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10024
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1218 times
Been thanked: 1617 times

Post #130

Post by Clownboat »

pshun2404 wrote: A better question is why would they be there to see it since they really did not believe it would happen? So the question "Why no witnesses?" Is an illegitimate question since the actual witnesses, 2000 years later by people not even close to the events, are simply dismissed as liars or legend builders or deluded. They have no basis for these accusations, and they fly in the face of what governs reliable testimony, but we should believe them rather than the witnesses...yet though not one person has even said they witnessed a fish becoming an amphibian or non-living matter becoming a creature (even a single celled organism) they will certainly believe this...get this straight...science ONLY proves that life comes from previous life and that the offspring is of the same genome as its parents.
Why would anyone claim to witness a fish becoming an amphibian? Who are you even alluding to? Clearly not those who support evolution, since the ToE makes it clear that such a thing cannot and has not happened.

Yet here you are, seemingly trying to justify belief in the absurd (dead bodies coming back to life) while using a false case for evolution at justification. Odd is it not?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

Post Reply