Why worship a "god" that threatens you?

OpiatefortheMasses · Post by **OpiatefortheMasses** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:27 am

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

evangelist · Post by **evangelist** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:50 pm

Morphine wrote:
evangelist wrote:
The one and only Living God has simply told us of our condition and the condition of the world.
He has told us why man is naturally evil now, and why our world is full of sickness and death.
Is it so terrible of Him to tell us the truth?

He originally created everything perfect, and man was to spend all of eternity with Him in Heaven.
But, He created man to have free will ... and we rebelled and refused to go along with Him.
So, now He has arranged to take only some of His creation to be with Him.
It's His ball game ... sorry, He makes the rules.
That's what's happening ... whether you like it or not.

"...why man is naturally evil..." Um. Wouldnt that mean it's all his (God's) fault.
Every attribute we have, both good and bad, can be credited to him.
Since he is the one who created us and knew the outcome (all knowing).

Almighty God did not create robots or dummies ... He created beings with free will.
These beings used their free will to reject God, refuse to obey Him, etc.
And God responded by saying, "Okay, here's My grace, mercy, love, etc. ...
I won't throw all of you in the garbage dump, but I will endeavor to save some of you ...
because My Son desires to have some close and loving companions with Him in Heaven."

Because up to that point, all that God had with Him in Heaven were angels.

This is how Christians see things ... sorry if some of you can't see the Scriptures this way.

KCKID · Post by **KCKID** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:12 pm

evangelist wrote:
Morphine wrote:
evangelist wrote:
The one and only Living God has simply told us of our condition and the condition of the world.
He has told us why man is naturally evil now, and why our world is full of sickness and death.
Is it so terrible of Him to tell us the truth?

He originally created everything perfect, and man was to spend all of eternity with Him in Heaven.
But, He created man to have free will ... and we rebelled and refused to go along with Him.
So, now He has arranged to take only some of His creation to be with Him.
It's His ball game ... sorry, He makes the rules.
That's what's happening ... whether you like it or not.

"...why man is naturally evil..." Um. Wouldnt that mean it's all his (God's) fault.
Every attribute we have, both good and bad, can be credited to him.
Since he is the one who created us and knew the outcome (all knowing).
Almighty God did not create robots or dummies ... He created beings with free will.
These beings used their free will to reject God, refuse to obey Him, etc.
And God responded by saying, "Okay, here's My grace, mercy, love, etc. ...
I won't throw all of you in the garbage dump, but I will endeavor to save some of you ...
because My Son desires to have some close and loving companions with Him in Heaven."

Because up to that point, all that God had with Him in Heaven were angels.

This is how Christians see things ... sorry if some of you can't see the Scriptures this way.

Obey/love/worship me or burn ...what kind of 'free will' is that? It's not free will ...it's a one-sided command slanted in God's favor. 'True' love can never be attained from someone when the alternative is a threat to destroy them if they don't. That said, how does one actually love a being whose only 'existence' is found in a book? Further, how does one (a Christian f'rinstance) practically apply 'obedience to God' in their everyday life? Further still, how does one (a Christian f'rinstance) practically apply 'love for God' in their everyday life? Why I'm asking the above questions is because most or even all Christians never seem able to give anything other than lip service to 'obedience', 'love' and 'worship' when referring to God.

evangelist · Post by **evangelist** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:42 pm

KCKID wrote:Obey/love/worship me or burn ...what kind of 'free will' is that? It's not free will ...it's a one-sided command slanted in God's favor. 'True' love can never be attained from someone when the alternative is a threat to destroy them if they don't. That said, how does one actually love a being whose only 'existence' is found in a book? Further, how does one (a Christian f'rinstance) practically apply 'obedience to God' in their everyday life? Further still, how does one (a Christian f'rinstance) practically apply 'love for God' in their everyday life? Why I'm asking the above questions is because most or even all Christians never seem able to give anything other than lip service to 'obedience', 'love' and 'worship' when referring to God.

Kansas City, Australia ... my fav town.
Multitudes have heard of their free will choice re: God, and rejected it.
Do you have any idea what "enmity" means?
Paul says that man is at enmity with God, i.e. man is an enemy of God.
This is why man rejects God, rebels against His authority?
This is why so many end up in the garbage dumpster.
How 'bout thou, matey? What's up with you?

Want to know who you are? ... http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=19646

OpiatefortheMasses · Post by **OpiatefortheMasses** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:50 pm

Almighty God did not create robots or dummies ... He created beings with free will.
These beings used their free will to reject God, refuse to obey Him, etc.
And God responded by saying, "Okay, here's My grace, mercy, love, etc. ...
I won't throw all of you in the garbage dump, but I will endeavor to save some of you ...
because My Son desires to have some close and loving companions with Him in Heaven."

Because up to that point, all that God had with Him in Heaven were angels.

This is how Christians see things ... sorry if some of you can't see the Scriptures this way.

1) You could argue that "god" initially did create us as "robots or dummies" in the context of the bible. Adam and Eve were created without the knowledge of good and evil (or right and wrong) so it's reasonable to say they were pretty ignorant and highly impressionable. Without that knowledge you really can't make an informed decision. Also, when they do acquire that knowledge their punished/ cursed which seems contradictory if he really didn't want "robots or dummies".

2) Your scenario makes it seem as though "god" is making a compromise with Jesus. Aren't they one in the same or do you believe differently? Also, don't you think the reasoning is a bit petty? The reason for this is so Jesus can have friends?

3) This situation is still tantamount to extortion ie: Give me what I want or I'll hurt you. That's not graceful, merciful or loving. That's just bullying.

dusk · Post by **dusk** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:37 am

Can you guys stop that ridiculous text coloring. That looks like some 5 year old trying to scream louder so mommy doesn't ignore him/her.

If you want your stuff to be read put it in normal text and use colors for emphasizing certain parts. Experience of different forums shows that a text completely in color, bold is not worth spending a second to read. I certainly don't waste a second.
If you have something to say do it in a civil way or open a thread in the ranting sub category.

KCKID · Post by **KCKID** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:51 am

dusk wrote:Can you guys stop that ridiculous text coloring. That looks like some 5 year old trying to scream louder so mommy doesn't ignore him/her.

If you want your stuff to be read put it in normal text and use colors for emphasizing certain parts. Experience of different forums shows that a text completely in color, bold is not worth spending a second to read. I certainly don't waste a second.
If you have something to say do it in a civil way or open a thread in the ranting sub category.

You didn't even ask nicely.

I'm being uncivil and ranting because I post in color ...????? What a strange post, Mr. Dusk.

Blue is the color I prefer and always have prefered when participating in forums. It has nothing to do with screaming and/or begging for attention. It's just a style of posting that I like so leave me and my ridiculous blue colored lettering alone.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:08 pm

Hi OpiatefortheMasses,

when you quote, I like to see who you are quoting and have link back to the whole post.

This can be cone by using the 'whole post quote feature,' then moving the start and end quote code to isolate the para you want, deleting what you don't want. For another one, copy the start and end quote code to the start and end of the new para and you are away!!

Thanks,

Ted

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:20 pm

OpiatefortheMasses wrote: 1) You could argue that "god" initially did create us as "robots or dummies" in the context of the bible. Adam and Eve were created without the knowledge of good and evil (or right and wrong) so it's reasonable to say they were pretty ignorant and highly impressionable. Without that knowledge you really can't make an informed decision. Also, when they do acquire that knowledge their punished/ cursed which seems contradictory if he really didn't want "robots or dummies".

Yes, you have it right.This is what the Bible seems to say and it keeps more people than yourself from understanding because

that is not what happened.

Every person who ever became sinner did so before the creation of the earth and Adam and Eve came to the earth as sinners, not innocent, and forgetful of the knowledge they had been informed of to make their free will decisions to sin a true choice.

OpiatefortheMasses wrote:2) Your scenario makes it seem as though "god" is making a compromise with Jesus. Aren't they one in the same or do you believe differently? Also, don't you think the reasoning is a bit petty? The reason for this is so Jesus can have friends?

I believe in 1 GOD in THRee persons, all sharing the divine attributes which creates the DIVINE UNITY but all separate and equal intelligent, loving persons.

A single match can burn down the biggest, most beautiful library or church...any theology can be seen to be petty by...

OpiatefortheMasses wrote:3) This situation is still tantamount to extortion ie: Give me what I want or I'll hurt you. That's not graceful, merciful or loving. That's just bullying.

I've explained the Christian way to think about this at least twice. Your refusal to give it credence yet keeping on hammering the point is suspect - if you don't want answers from the various Christian positions, why keep asking?

Are you truying to change our minds?

Peace, Ted

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:28 pm

dusk wrote:Can you guys stop that ridiculous text coloring. That looks like some 5 year old trying to scream louder so mommy doesn't ignore him/her.

If you want your stuff to be read put it in normal text and use colors for emphasizing certain parts. Experience of different forums shows that a text completely in color, bold is not worth spending a second to read. I certainly don't waste a second.
If you have something to say do it in a civil way or open a thread in the ranting sub category.

I agree dusk...I use red for scripture and blue for emphasis, to isolate an important thought. I think that is useful and not overwhelming. But all bold or red is like all caps...

Peace, Ted

OpiatefortheMasses · Post by **OpiatefortheMasses** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:17 pm

ttruscott wrote:Yes, you have it right.This is what the Bible seems to say and it keeps more people than yourself from understanding because

that is not what happened.

Every person who ever became sinner did so before the creation of the earth and Adam and Eve came to the earth as sinners, not innocent, and forgetful of the knowledge they had been informed of to make their free will decisions to sin a true choice.

Unfortunately, the bible is completely open to interpretation so there's really no way to say your interpretation is right or wrong as well as mine. You interpretation leaves a lot unanswered though. If Adam and Eve were created as sinners then not only is the "forbidden fruit" and "original sin" a tad redundant, don't you think? Also, why start off humanity so flawed? It seems counter-productive to make people highly flawed of "sinners" right from the start when you're trying to create utopian society.

ttruscott wrote:I believe in 1 GOD in THRee persons, all sharing the divine attributes which creates the DIVINE UNITY but all separate and equal intelligent, loving persons.

A single match can burn down the biggest, most beautiful library or church...any theology can be seen to be petty by...

Doesn't that contradict the notion of a "one true god" if they're three distinct entities?

ttruscott wrote:I've explained the Christian way to think about this at least twice. Your refusal to give it credence yet keeping on hammering the point is suspect - if you don't want answers from the various Christian positions, why keep asking?

Are you truying to change our minds?

The reason I keep bringing it up is because the whole scenario is demonstrably shown as extortion when all the factors are considered. You really haven't demonstrated how my assertion isn't true even with your argument concerning coercion since the threat of hell would fall under coercion. I honestly just want an honest answer as to why someone like yourself would choose to worship a "god" that would do that to you. I honestly don't think you'd be the friend of someone who extorted your friendship with threats of torture or even allow someone to do that to a friend of yours without at least saying "that's not right" so why worship a "god" does it? Personally, I would say it's fear which would be completely understandable considering the fact that in the context of the bible "god" is shown to be rather vicious on more than one occasion. Honestly, I just don't see many reasons to love the biblical "god" but I can see why people would be afraid of him though.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but rather just asking questions of the religion. Are you trying to change anyone's mind?

Also, thank you for the pointers about quotes. I've been scratching my head on that one for awhile now. Much appreciated, bro.