The Evidence War

[chrispalasz]

Please take the time to read this entire post.

This thread is created for posts that:

1. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity holds the Truth about God and humanity.

2. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity does not hold the truth about God and humanity.

Evidence posted must be according to one of the two definitions, or it will not be deemed sufficient as evidence. All debate arising from posted evidence should be addressed using counter-evidence [counter-evidence defined as evidence that goes against or attempts to falsify or discredit evidence already posted].

Evidence, on this thread, is defined as follows:

1. Of or having to do with a material object that demonstrates, makes clear, or ascertains the truth of the very fact or point in issue;

2. A matter of record, or writing, or by the testimony of witnesses, enabling one to pronounce with certainty; concerning the truth of any matter in dispute.

[Piper Plexed]

the evidence in world in conclusive.It was conclusive from long back.There is no proof for creation.But the problem is

1.How do you prove that a unicorn doesnt exist?It doesnt exist,so its impossible to find proof for something not being there.
2.In every logical debate theists always lose out to atheists.
3.CNN or newyorktimes dont publish convincing reports about gods nonexistence,since there is no evidence for his existence.scientists and all know the nonexistence of evidence.Pastors and popes know it.Thats why they call it as faith and not as science or logic based fields like marketing or philosophy.Religion is a pseuodo science.
4.only the refusal of believers to accept the known truth stands in the way.nothing else prevents them from knowing the obvious truth.

No atheist or agnostic believes any scientific claim like evolution theory in lock stock and barrel.There are many changes in evolution theory,but all go away from bible.thats great about science.No belief is fundamental.There are no beliefs at all.quantum theory even said we dont exist and reality is an illusion.

"state the claim ,prove it and we will accept it" is science."we state the claim and you believe it without questioning" is religion.And if you ask to disprove a nonexistent thing how can anybody prove it?If you say "last night I had a dream.if you dont believe it disprove me"--who can do it?Nobody can.

If god is there,its his responsibility to prove his existence.If not then we have to take decisions based on rational skills.

Just curious, why do you spend so much time energy conversing with the ignorant and deluded? Lets see 71 posts, has been a member about 2 months.

[richic]

Age of the Earth.

I believe in the scientific dating techniques so I can't yet support the Genesis account for the Age of the Earth.

No offense at all to the site mods, but because any idiot with a modem and a copy of notepad can put up a website. I could -easily- put up a website devoted to debating Satanism, but that doesn't validate the belief any more then a website built to debating Buddhism validates that belief.

I didn't mean to infer that the existence of the website validates the belief, I just meant the website wouldn't be viable or interesting if the atheists won all the debates.

Would you care to have the entirety of your belief system created and set in stone according to the scientific knowledge we had in 1901? Would you care to have it set back as far as 1950? In this system the beliefs can change as society and technology changes, and thus any incorrect belief can be expunged without any major challenge

No. That would be terrible. I'm not nostalgic. But doesn't that argue for Christianity which hasn't been expunged in 2000 years of major challenges?

It's not, but if it'd like people to pray to it, praise it, etc...Then it had better not be too miffed if those whom it failed entirely to prove itself don't believe in it.

That's fair and if we all believed the same things, I'm not sure how much we'd learn on this earth.

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

[/quote="richic]

No. That would be terrible. I'm not nostalgic. But doesn't that argue for Christianity which hasn't been expunged in 2000 years of major challenges?

That's fair and if we all believed the same things, I'm not sure how much we'd learn on this earth.[/quote]

surviving for 2000 years proves nothing.And i dont share your surprise on christianity surviving for 2000 years.I bet that it will survive for atleast another 1000 years.But it would prove nothing.Islam,buddhism and even marxism will survive for long.that is no proof for anything.And expunged major challenges???did you expunge darwin and galileo?

And always theists lose to atheists in any debate.If you see this website itself in every thread you can see this.For example for question of atheist

1.Prove existence of god
answer:Bible says "god exists".THis is proof.

2.how do you verify this claim?

answer:Bible says "Dont test god."

3.How do you say bible says the truth?

answer:because bible says that it says the truth.

4.what is the proof that this claim is true?
answer:many eyewitneses exist.

5.where do they exist?
answer;In bible.

6.so proof for bible comes from bible?
answer:yes.

THis is how debates go on.And who won this deabte?Its easy to see.

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

Just curious, why do you spend so much time energy conversing with the ignorant and deluded? Lets see 71 posts, has been a member about 2 months.

I dont think christians as ignorant and deluded.They are good and intelligent and are many times better than me.I am taking my philosophy classes and am using the debate points here in my classes.I can never refuse the benefits christianity has done to humans.Its a great institution.

[richic]

itself in every thread you can see this.For example for question of atheist

1.Prove existence of god
answer:Bible says "god exists".THis is proof.

2.how do you verify this claim?

answer:Bible says "Dont test god."

3.How do you say bible says the truth?

answer:because bible says that it says the truth.

4.what is the proof that this claim is true?
answer:many eyewitneses exist.

5.where do they exist?
answer;In bible.

6.so proof for bible comes from bible?
answer:yes.

You are right. It's a pretty poor showing for the Christian side. Their answers are as weak as a straw man.

[Piper Plexed]

Just curious, why do you spend so much time energy conversing with the ignorant and deluded? Lets see 71 posts, has been a member about 2 months.

I dont think christians as ignorant and deluded.They are good and intelligent and are many times better than me.I am taking my philosophy classes and am using the debate points here in my classes.I can never refuse the benefits christianity has done to humans.Its a great institution.

Ahhh I see, an exercise in applied logic that's cool. I will never forget when my Philosophy Professor finished up the section on logic with a blatantly untrue statement then proceeded to form an argument which proved the untruth. I believe her final thought on logic was, it is a valuable tool though a tool non the less. Hey that might be an interesting exercise for you, being in the thick of logic classes and all, one thing I do know is that it has been so long for me that I am far from up to the task.

Now, if I may, I concede that you have done quite well exhibiting how Christianity does not offer proof that God exists, though I must ask what do you believe to be the cause of life? The closest I have ever gotten to an explanation is the Chaos Theory though the origins of matter and energy remain a mystery to me.

[chrispalasz]

worship-your-mother-she-i:

Here's my Christian Worldview perspective on this issue.

surviving for 2000 years proves nothing.And i dont share your surprise on christianity surviving for 2000 years.I bet that it will survive for atleast another 1000 years.

I bet it will survive for eternity.

But it would prove nothing.Islam,buddhism and even marxism will survive for long.

Not true. These other things will pass away when all things not eternal pass away.

that is no proof for anything. And expunged major challenges???did you expunge darwin and galileo?

Challenges are only met with perception. The only perception that matters is God's perception.

And always theists lose to atheists in any debate. If you see this website itself in every thread you can see this. For example for question of atheist

Christians don't need the argument you listed. In fact, that's exactly the point. Christians don't need any argument at all. Arguments don't convince people. God does.

I've seen many atheists be defeated by their own paradoxal, unreasonable, and hypocritical beliefs, on this forum, in other forums, and in life with their very own words. The truth is that people see the arguments that they want to see.

Here's a good example:
http://biblicalindecency.home.comcast.n ... uments.htm
This guy has listed, clearly and concisely, many Christian arguments, and his response to them. To Christians, it's plainly easy to see where he is diluting himself to believe what he says. To an Atheist, it is easy to see that he is "correct" in everything he says.

Atheists are on one extreme end of the religious spectrum, and ultra-conservatives are on another end. The only wordly reasonable stance is Agnosticism which sits in the middle and always is seeking for answers. They profess to know no answers, and this is one strength. To deny that God exists is an absurdity. To claim knowledge that God exists is an absurdity to those without the Holy Spirit.

Atheists are hungry for answers, too, even if they don't know it. It's no wonder, in my opinion, that there aren't a great deal of Atheists in the world. It just seems like there are more because they speak loudly.

Here's a great story of an often cited ex-Atheist: C.S. Lewis
http://www.stanford.edu/group/ww1/sprin ... /Lewis.htm

I, myself, give testimony to having been an Agnostic for my entire life before God revealed Christianity as the truth to me.

The testimonies are endless.

Regarding Christianity, I would describe it as a sixth sense.

We see things, so we know them.
We feel things, so we know them.
We hear things, so we know them.
We taste things, so we know them.
We smell things, so we know them.

We have Faith, so we know God exists.

Faith in Jesus Christ is a sense, just like the others, that produces knowledge. A person is only truly complete with the Holy Spirit, the knowledge that Jesus Christ is God. Can we see everything that we can feel? Can we taste everything we can hear? Should a man born blind claim that nobody can see anything simply because he can't? Should a man born deaf claim that sound doesn't exist because he can't hear?

Similarly, asking a Christian to PROVE their Faith is like asking a person to prove to a deaf man that he can hear. Or proving to a blind man that you can see. If the blind man or the deaf man want to believe you... maybe they will. But if they don't want to believe you, then no argument you could ever make will convince them.

It's true, some people are crippled. Some are born blind, and they will never see. Some are born deaf, and they will never hear. Everyone is born without Faith. But God gives graciously to anyone that asks. Jesus healed the blind, He healed the deaf, and He can heal the faithless. And those people will claim that sense, and through it they will know God, the same as anyone can know anything.

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

Now, if I may, I concede that you have done quite well exhibiting how Christianity does not offer proof that God exists, though I must ask what do you believe to be the cause of life? The closest I have ever gotten to an explanation is the Chaos Theory though the origins of matter and energy remain a mystery to me.

What I believe is the cause of life?First I dont have that question in my mind at all.Its a bad philosophical question our ancestors tried to find an answer to.And everybody came up with an universal answer."Purpose of life is to reach jesus","purpose of life is to worship allah" and so on.I dont have that question in my mind.That question has caused millions of deaths all over the world,has divided nations and have driven men crazy enough as to kill 650 school children in russia and send planes into WTC killing innocent lives.

I leave that question to scientists.I dont believe i will benefit by researching that.For me it doesnt matter at all.What matters is "I am here". I dont trouble myself by asking "why I am here" and again getting thousands of answers from 1000's of religions.

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

I bet it will survive for eternity.

But it would prove nothing.Islam,buddhism and even marxism will survive for long.

Not true. These other things will pass away when all things not eternal pass away.

Challenges are only met with perception. The only perception that matters is God's perception.

And always theists lose to atheists in any debate. If you see this website itself in every thread you can see this. For example for question of atheist

Christians don't need the argument you listed. In fact, that's exactly the point. Christians don't need any argument at all. Arguments don't convince people. God does.

I've seen many atheists be defeated by their own paradoxal, unreasonable, and hypocritical beliefs, on this forum, in other forums, and in life with their very own words. The truth is that people see the arguments that they want to see.

Here's a good example:
http://biblicalindecency.home.comcast.n ... uments.htm
This guy has listed, clearly and concisely, many Christian arguments, and his response to them. To Christians, it's plainly easy to see where he is diluting himself to believe what he says. To an Atheist, it is easy to see that he is "correct" in everything he says.

Atheists are on one extreme end of the religious spectrum, and ultra-conservatives are on another end. The only wordly reasonable stance is Agnosticism which sits in the middle and always is seeking for answers. They profess to know no answers, and this is one strength. To deny that God exists is an absurdity. To claim knowledge that God exists is an absurdity to those without the Holy Spirit.

Atheists are hungry for answers, too, even if they don't know it. It's no wonder, in my opinion, that there aren't a great deal of Atheists in the world. It just seems like there are more because they speak loudly.

Here's a great story of an often cited ex-Atheist: C.S. Lewis
http://www.stanford.edu/group/ww1/sprin ... /Lewis.htm

I, myself, give testimony to having been an Agnostic for my entire life before God revealed Christianity as the truth to me.

The testimonies are endless.

Regarding Christianity, I would describe it as a sixth sense.

We see things, so we know them.
We feel things, so we know them.
We hear things, so we know them.
We taste things, so we know them.
We smell things, so we know them.

We have Faith, so we know God exists.

Faith in Jesus Christ is a sense, just like the others, that produces knowledge. A person is only truly complete with the Holy Spirit, the knowledge that Jesus Christ is God. Can we see everything that we can feel? Can we taste everything we can hear? Should a man born blind claim that nobody can see anything simply because he can't? Should a man born deaf claim that sound doesn't exist because he can't hear?

Similarly, asking a Christian to PROVE their Faith is like asking a person to prove to a deaf man that he can hear. Or proving to a blind man that you can see. If the blind man or the deaf man want to believe you... maybe they will. But if they don't want to believe you, then no argument you could ever make will convince them.

It's true, some people are crippled. Some are born blind, and they will never see. Some are born deaf, and they will never hear. Everyone is born without Faith. But God gives graciously to anyone that asks. Jesus healed the blind, He healed the deaf, and He can heal the faithless. And those people will claim that sense, and through it they will know God, the same as anyone can know anything.

Ya, the same old story.I tell you, I dont doubt that christianity might survive an eternity.It might or might not.Personally I feel it as a great institution which had its role in reforming human life and making life meaningful.So I wish it all the best to survive eternity.

And next, I also have the same feelings to buddhism,marxism and islam.All of these are great institutions,things which have weathered time.So I would like them also to withstand time and do their role.Buddhism in fact is older than christianity.

This is one major problem with staunch religious people.They feel their religion as superior and feel all other religions are evil work and will weather away in course of time.Some cannot leave that to chance and crash planes into WTC and wage jihad and crusades to settle things once for all.I laugh at such thoughts.For me I dont have any illusions of proving agnotisicm is best or atheism as great.I know nobody can do that,nobody can impose their belief on all others.As long as world is there,there will be religions,atheism and agnoticism.If we all think "my belief is the best,only it should survive and all other belief sets should die",that will be real funny.But even more funny thing is people actually trying to accomplish that objective.That is real fun to watch.

And I have nothing against your testimony to god's existence.I only would like to point out to you that there are billions of hindu testimonies and muslim testimonies which say the exact opposite thing to yours.I am happy that if you benefit in anyway by seeing god.It has happened to many people.I have seen many former drug addicts,criminals and worse people becoming better individuals by following christianity.Christianity has changed their lives and made them better humans.So if you benefit by christianity I dont have anything to say on that.I too have benefitted by a different belief set and hence understand you as a fellow friend who seeks some sort of satisfaction and purpose in life by following a belief set.

But i feel that it is always better to question our current beliefs.I always believe that if i am stuck with my current belief,I am losing an opportunity to get a better belief.Obviously I hold my current belief since I believe that it is best suited for me.But it doesnt stop me from questioning my current belief set and always trying to see what other belief systems exist and how they can benefit me.

I also dont believe in branding me as believer,non-believer,scientist,rational being,catholic etc.Once I brand myself like that then I am stuck with a belief set.For me the worst thing to happen is being branded.Once I get branded as anything,then I have to become similiar to other branded products.I take various belief sets and take different beliefs which suit me the best.I will never asscoiate myself with a single belief set.

And "arguments dont convince people,god does" is a good statement.But when the question itself is whether god exists, I dont understand how that statement helps us in anyway.

"I have faith,hence we know god exists" is another statement.But what is the basis for faith?Faith should have rationality as a base. "I belong to this belief set,which doesnt need rationality,but only needs faith" doesnt augur well for the belief set.If a belief set wants its members to never have rationality and only faith...I dont think i will benefit by being in such a belief set.

you said "Similarly, asking a Christian to PROVE their Faith is like asking a person to prove to a deaf man that he can hear. Or proving to a blind man that you can see. If the blind man or the deaf man want to believe you... maybe they will. But if they don't want to believe you, then no argument you could ever make will convince them."

That is the major problem.You arent blind.But you close your eyes.You arent deaf.But you close your ears.If people dont want to hear anything close their eyes and simply shake their heads whenever some counter belief set is said, it doesnt augur well for their rationality.If people had done it in past nobody would have become christians.Christianity is about changing the belief set of people.But if your targets close their ears and eyes,how will you preach?

Or is it like you guys will only preach and never listen?"Listen to what I say.Your current belief set is wrong,since my book says so.BUt Whatever you gonna say is not even going to fall in my ears.I have chosen not to listen to you.But you have to listen to me.If you dont listen to me you will burn in hell."

Some great debate points.I enjoy it.

[Piper Plexed]

What I believe is the cause of life?First I dont have that question in my mind at all.Its a bad philosophical question our ancestors tried to find an answer to.

I didn't ask the purpose of life, I asked what caused life. I am not quite sure why you think I believe it is a philosophical question and responded as such.. What I believe is the cause of life?First I dont have that question in my mind at all.Its a bad philosophical question our ancestors tried to find an answer to

I leave that question to scientists.I dont believe i will benefit by researching that.For me it doesnt matter at all.What matters is "I am here". I dont trouble myself by asking "why I am here"

So because this is not important to you, as you are not a scientist then it shouldn't be important to other non-scientists?

Willingness to leave these questions to science is an example of faith in science, how is that any different than a Christians faith in God?