A true christian is needed

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

Gospel of Mark, chapter 16, verse 16, 17 and 18'

'He who believes and is baptized will be saved but he who does not believe shall be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe in my name. They shall cast out devils, they shall speak in
tongues, they will handle snakes and if they drink poison it will not hurt them and they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover'.

question 1:why then does a christian die from snake bite?

question 2:If a christian drinks poison by mistake will he die or not die?

question 3:Will any christian come with me to a hospital to cure sick people by his touching them?Its not for testing god,but for helping sick.

[potwalloper.]

It really is a matter of perception, as much as so many are willing to say that they have never been blessed, I may say that maybe they never stopped to notice.

Of course this doesn't consider the fact those that don't survive aren't able to tell anyone. I am pleased to hear of your recovery but I'm afraid it proves nothing with regard to faith and prayer and its effect on healing - our understanding of human biological processes is still in its infancy and there will be a biological explanation for your case.

If prayer works then why do any people die of Aids, cancer, strokes, heart disease, cholera, typhoid, maleria...? These people pray and their relatives pray - they then die anyway.

For prayer to be accepted as having any effect it would have to be more likely than not that when people are prayed for (and are unaware of this) their survival rate improves significantly in statistical terms.

Unless of course you are proposing the concept of a divine lottery where god tosses dice to see if you are going to die or not when prayed for and it is therefore purely arbitrary.

When people face the worst event in their lives (their likely death) they are willing to believe in anything and this desire for survival propogates a belief in prayer as an effective intervention when there is no evidence to support this as an external force. The only evidence is for a positive life view (whether religious or otherwise) to improve the likelihood of survival in terminal illness. This is biological not divine.

[Piper Plexed]

Of course this doesn't consider the fact those that don't survive aren't able to tell anyone. I am pleased to hear of your recovery but I'm afraid it proves nothing with regard to faith and prayer and its effect on healing - our understanding of human biological processes is still in its infancy and there will be a biological explanation for your case.

It proves that inexplicable things happen, Like I said "I could consider the placebo thing and chalk it up to isn't the mind and human body amazing in it's ability to adapt" though what happened to me has not been medically duplicated as far as I know, I am open to more then one possible cause.

Couldn't this statement "our understanding of human biological processes is still in its infancy and there will be a biological explanation for your case" be considered a leap of faith as well?

If prayer works then why do any people die of Aids, cancer, strokes, heart disease, cholera, typhoid, maleria...? These people pray and their relatives pray - they then die anyway.

For prayer to be accepted as having any effect it would have to be more likely than not that when people are prayed for (and are unaware of this) their survival rate improves significantly in statistical terms.

Unless of course you are proposing the concept of a divine lottery where god tosses dice to see if you are going to die or not when prayed for and it is therefore purely arbitrary.

Well we all know that people survive these things too. Lets say for a moment a non-believer opens their mind to the possibility that there is a being that has knowledge greater than their own perception, wouldn't it make sense that this higher being might see that survival in this damaged body might be a fate worse than death for those being prayed for. Or possibly that person no longer wishes to fight the mortal coil and feels that their work on earth is done. I would assume that if God heard the prayers and thoughts of those that fear for the loss of the loved one wouldn't that same God know the thoughts and wishes of the injured or ill person and gain a clearer perspective on what must happen. What may seem arbitrary may be very well thought out but then again one must be open to something greater than the self to entertain the thought.

When people face the worst event in their lives (their likely death) they are willing to believe in anything and this desire for survival propogates a belief in prayer as an effective intervention when there is no evidence to support this as an external force. The only evidence is for a positive life view (whether religious or otherwise) to improve the likelihood of survival in terminal illness. This is biological not divine.

Some people entertain biological solutions only even when there is no rational or logical cause and effect, some entertain the possibility of either biological or divine and some see only divine.

I guess in the end it is up to what kind of person you are. I personally do not dismiss either biological or divine, I don't believe science and God are necessarily exclusive of one another actually if there is to ever be proof of God it will be found through science.

edited to fix quote

[Amadeus]

Someone posted on the last page about my comment. Ya know, the one about the miracles not happening all the time to every believer. NOT ONCE DID I SAY THOSE MIRACLES ONLY APPLY TO THE ANCIENT PEOPLES! Please, don't put words in my mouth.

Also, why does God have to answer every prayer? If there is an omniscient God, He would no better than us what to do, right? Sometimes we pray for things that turn out to be bad for us (like, "Oh Lord, please let me marry so-and-so"). Those prayers go unanswered for our own good (to avoid a divorce later on?).

We don't TELL God what to do. We ask Him. It's up to Him whether He answers. [/quote][/ref]

[Travis]

All the ‘miracles’ that I have seen can be explained by naturalistic means. Does that make them any less of a ‘miracle’, and who is to say what vehicle a deity may use to intervene in our affairs?

There is no way to know with absolute certainty we have all our angles covered. Absolute fideism or absolute skepticism here takes you nowhere. I totally agree with Piper Plexed.

Another interesting thought is to question why exactly, are you* reaching the conclusion that you are? What are your* motives for feeling the way you do? And should we have absolute factual evidence?

*all of us

[chrispalasz]

Some of these are difficult. I will address the ones I can.

How then to we reconcile that these good people were not saved;

1. We can't say all of them were bad or evil, what of children that die.

The Bible does not say that this life will be a walk in a field of flowers. What happens in this world affects only sinners like ourselves. Not God.

2. We can't say they didn't pray for help, majority of America believes in God and is christian.

This is not even close to being true. The majority of America is definately not Christian. Just look at the gay marriage polls. They speak for themselves. Some 60% of America says they don't care if the government supports gay marriages. Now, I'm not saying that EVERYONE that supports gay marriage DEFINATELY isn't a Christian... but the Bible clearly is against this issue, and I am unsure about anyone that accepts it because they go against God.

3. If we say it was meant for them to die that day that negates the power of prayer because, if a person survived it wasn't because they prayed. It was because it wasn't their day to die. The fact that those who did die prayed and still died shows that prayer doesn't change your fate. If prayer decided who would die and who would not then everyone that prays to God upon dying would be saved.

People misunderstand prayer. Prayer does not influence God's decision on anything. We pray with the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ because we want His Will to be done - and we want what is right to happen. Look at the Lord's Prayer, when Jesus teaches us how to pray. Everything in that prayer is ALREADY promised to Christians. So why pray for what God has already promised? Look at the Old Testament. God told Elijiah that He was going to make it rain... but He told Elijiah to pray about it. Well gee... if Elijiah knew it was going to rain... why would he pray about it? We pray for what is right. We pray for God's will. And if God does not grant our prayers, that's okay. God's plan is bigger than our independant desires.

4. Your own bible says god doesn't not have any respect of person, so he is not choosing who prays to answer based upon who you are.

So then the questions remains how do we reconcile this belief with actual reality?

I hope I have done this already. If not, let me know. I'll give it another shot.

How does god decide who's prayers he is going to answer and who's prayers he won't answer?

Whichever prayers are according to His Divine, Just and Righteous Will. It has nothing to do with who we are and what we want, but rather what is the best response.

Why does the bible say the righteous die early, while the wicked linger?

Well I don't know for sure. Could I have a passage reference please? I can only speculate. I would say off the top of my head... this world is evil. The righteous are relieved of this world and called to God.

If heaven is a better place and this world is wicked why do Christians pray to stay here anyway

Christians pray to stay for many reasons. Some of the sinful reasons they may do this are because:
1. they are afraid of death
2. they aren't satisfied that their lives are complete
3. they feel they need to do more

A good reason is:
1. So they might be a light to the world for non-Christians and so God might further use him/her as a vessel for His glory.

and why would saving a person be a good thing for God to do?

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean saving a Christian from physical death? Saving a non-Christian from physical death? Or do you mean saving a person from eternal damnation in Hell? I'll give the short answers, respectively.
1. So a Christian can further influence and impact non-Christians in their life.
2. So the non-Christian may be used to glorify God by unwittingly supporting Christains or because that person may be brought to the truth in Jesus Christ.
3. So they don't suffer eternal damnation in Hell.

...the bible does say you should cry when a baby comes and rejoice when a person dies.

I will contest this. You will definately need to give me a reference. I bet you're taking whatever passage you think says this WAY out of context.

Wouldn't it be better for god to stop all the pain and hurt of this world for those dying instead of saving them and continuing their plight here on the evil realm

From a humans perspective, that sounds like a great idea. Right? If a human had God's power... many people might choose to do that. However... if anyone had God's power AND wisdom - everything would be done exactly the same way as He is doing it right now. SO the answer is no. And maybe many people don't completely understand why - but that's not important. God has continuously shown us that He is Good and Just and Fiathful - so Christains trust Him.

(taken from the last part of your previous quote:)

where Satan is GOD?

Satan is not god. There is only one God: Jesus Christ. You said it yourself above that God could overthrow Satan and take away his power of pain and suffering from the world.

[potwalloper.]

Look at the Old Testament. God told Elijiah that He was going to make it rain... but He told Elijiah to pray about it. Well gee... if Elijiah knew it was going to rain... why would he pray about it? We pray for what is right. We pray for God's will. And if God does not grant our prayers, that's okay. God's plan is bigger than our independant desires.

Out of interest what objective evidence do you have that any of this is true?

Elijah may simply be the figment of someone's imagination.

And what is this "God's plan"? I've never seen it or any evidence that God even exists except as an abstract concept. God is conspicuous by his absence and there has never been any proof of his existence provided by anyone throughout the entire history of mankind.

If God exists please prove it (and please remember that the fact that the earth exists and that we exist is not proof of the existence of God - neither is the bible nor what it contains).

I may just as well say that Santa exists...or was that debated somewhere else?

[Lotan]

Elijah may simply be the figment of someone's imagination.

Agreed. The whole bible may simply be the figment of someone's imagination. The passages that are the subject of this thread (Mk. 16:9-20) aren't even in the oldest copies of 'Mark's gospel, but were added later. Some later copies of 'Mark' include this ending, while others include a shorter ending. They can't both be the correct one. Either one of them, or most likely both of them are forgeries.
Isn't it odd that Christians will defend these words, which are scurrilously attributed to Jesus, when experience has shown them to be false? Christians react to snakebites, poison and healing no differently than anyone else.
I attend a pentecostal church where the pastor and some members of the congregation occasionally 'speak in tongues' and it is hardly what I would call a miracle.

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

Some of these are difficult. I will address the ones I can.


The Bible does not say that this life will be a walk in a field of flowers. What happens in this world affects only sinners like ourselves. Not God.

People misunderstand prayer. Prayer does not influence God's decision on anything. We pray with the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ because we want His Will to be done - and we want what is right to happen. Look at the Lord's Prayer, when Jesus teaches us how to pray. Everything in that prayer is ALREADY promised to Christians. So why pray for what God has already promised? Look at the Old Testament. God told Elijiah that He was going to make it rain... but He told Elijiah to pray about it. Well gee... if Elijiah knew it was going to rain... why would he pray about it? We pray for what is right. We pray for God's will. And if God does not grant our prayers, that's okay. God's plan is bigger than our independant desires.

Whichever prayers are according to His Divine, Just and Righteous Will. It has nothing to do with who we are and what we want, but rather what is the best response.

(

The question is not about god choosing to answer prayers of christians.Its about whether he has a choice in asnwering them or not.Becasue bible says that if you have faith and ask for a mountain to fall into the sea,it will do so.Because bible says that if you have faith in god then snake bite wont affect you and posion wont touch you.This is the promise made by god to humans and how can he go back from it?when gods promises something,does he have a choice?

[Arch]

Some of these are difficult. I will address the ones I can.

How then to we reconcile that these good people were not saved;

1. We can't say all of them were bad or evil, what of children that die.

The Bible does not say that this life will be a walk in a field of flowers. What happens in this world affects only sinners like ourselves. Not God.

This didn't ,even in the most vivid part of any imagination, answer my question!

2. We can't say they didn't pray for help, majority of America believes in God and is christian.

This is not even close to being true. The majority of America is definately not Christian. Just look at the gay marriage polls. They speak for themselves. Some 60% of America says they don't care if the government supports gay marriages. Now, I'm not saying that EVERYONE that supports gay marriage DEFINATELY isn't a Christian... but the Bible clearly is against this issue, and I am unsure about anyone that accepts it because they go against God.

Does this have anything to do with what I am talking about. Plus many people who support gay marriages and gay rights consider themselves Christians and there are Homosexuals who claim Christianity as well. Also you would be called an anti-Christ for being biased against them.

The point was many people believe in GOD in America!!!

3. If we say it was meant for them to die that day that negates the power of prayer because, if a person survived it wasn't because they prayed. It was because it wasn't their day to die. The fact that those who did die prayed and still died shows that prayer doesn't change your fate. If prayer decided who would die and who would not then everyone that prays to God upon dying would be saved.

People misunderstand prayer. Prayer does not influence God's decision on anything. We pray with the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ because we want His Will to be done - and we want what is right to happen. Look at the Lord's Prayer, when Jesus teaches us how to pray. Everything in that prayer is ALREADY promised to Christians. So why pray for what God has already promised? Look at the Old Testament. God told Elijiah that He was going to make it rain... but He told Elijiah to pray about it. Well gee... if Elijiah knew it was going to rain... why would he pray about it? We pray for what is right. We pray for God's will. And if God does not grant our prayers, that's okay. God's plan is bigger than our independant desires.

If prayer does not influence God's decision on whether or not a person is going to live or die, recover or be healed, then why pray for someone's recovery. What you are saying is that prayer is a practice in futility. Thats the same thing I am saying

4. Your own bible says god doesn't not have any respect of person, so he is not choosing who prays to answer based upon who you are.

So then the questions remains how do we reconcile this belief with actual reality?

I hope I have done this already. If not, let me know. I'll give it another shot.

NO YOU DID NOT

How does god decide who's prayers he is going to answer and who's prayers he won't answer?

Whichever prayers are according to His Divine, Just and Righteous Will. It has nothing to do with who we are and what we want, but rather what is the best response.

Again, then it makes no sense to pray for someone's recovery or life when your prayers won't change the outcome. In fact prayer under such circumstances could be deemed insane.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a good definition of insanity!!

1. Why pray for some one to live or recover if you prayer has no effect on the outcome?

2. Why pray for God's will to be done when God's will is always done according to Christians?

Maybe it because you have a lack of FAITH in God's decision making capabilities.

If heaven is a better place and this world is wicked why do Christians pray to stay here anyway

Christians pray to stay for many reasons. Some of the sinful reasons they may do this are because:
1. they are afraid of death
2. they aren't satisfied that their lives are complete
3. they feel they need to do more

A good reason is:
1. So they might be a light to the world for non-Christians and so God might further use him/her as a vessel for His glory.

A fear of death would be a lack of faith in God's plan. Why would you fear death if you believe in Heaven? It seems some christians question there God more than I do..

...the bible does say you should cry when a baby comes and rejoice when a person dies.

I will contest this. You will definately need to give me a reference. I bet you're taking whatever passage you think says this WAY out of context.

Aren't we always taking scriptures out of context....Ill post it asap, don't have it right now.

God has continuously shown us that He is Good and Just and Faithful - so Christains trust Him.

If they trust him then why do they pray for him to change his mind and why do they fear death ?

(taken from the last part of your previous quote:)

where Satan is GOD?

Satan is not god. There is only one God: Jesus Christ. You said it yourself above that God could overthrow Satan and take away his power of pain and suffering from the world.

The bible says Satan is The God of this World my friend

[chrispalasz]

To Arch

*sigh*

This didn't ,even in the most vivid part of any imagination, answer my question!

Then what is your question? You did not make it clear.

Does this have anything to do with what I am talking about. Plus many people who support gay marriages and gay rights consider themselves Christians and there are Homosexuals who claim Christianity as well. Also you would be called an anti-Christ for being biased against them.

I don't care what I would be called by them, or by you. A Christian is literally a Christ Follower. I study the teachings of Jesus Christ, which are written in the Bible and divinely inspired, and I do my very best to imitate Him. In the times when I get caught up in sin, I seek ways to eliminate it, I pray about it, and I repent. These are very common and necessary practices. Not everyone that claims to be a Christian is one. Jesus Christ defines Christianity - not some majority. That's why we are named after Him (Christ... Christianity. See a connection there?)

The point was many people believe in GOD in America!!!

Believing in god does not make you a Christian. Nor does saying you're a Christian. Nor does trying to be a good person make you a Christian. Everyone has their god... whether it's a statue or an addiction or money or power... I'm not talking about them and I didn't know that you were. I'm talking about the people that only have Jesus Christ as the one true God.

If prayer does not influence God's decision on whether or not a person is going to live or die, recover or be healed, then why pray for someone's recovery. What you are saying is that prayer is a practice in futility. Thats the same thing I am saying.

It's not a practice in futility. We pray because God has declared it a good and righteous thing to do. It is a means of communicating with Him and it also expresses a desire to communicate with Him. Jesus Christ prayed a lot. Like I said, we follow and imitate Christ. Jesus' disciples saw the power of prayer. That's why they didn't even wait for Him to tell them how to do it... instead they went ahead and asked Him how.

NO YOU DID NOT

Explain how I did not or clarify your question. It is not clear.

1. Why pray for some one to live or recover if you prayer has no effect on the outcome?

Because God wants us to and God grants our prayers that are according to His Will and since God is Good and Just and Righteous, we are imitating Him in these things by praying.

2. Why pray for God's will to be done when God's will is always done according to Christians?

Now... correct me if I'm wrong this time, but I'm pretty sure I already answered this question. This time, if I am wrong, please clarify how I did not answer the question.

Christians pray to stay for many reasons. Some of the sinful reasons they may do this are because:
1. they are afraid of death
2. they aren't satisfied that their lives are complete
3. they feel they need to do more

A good reason is:
1. So they might be a light to the world for non-Christians and so God might further use him/her as a vessel for His glory.

A fear of death would be a lack of faith in God's plan. Why would you fear death if you believe in Heaven? It seems some christians question there God more than I do..

You're right. A fear of death would be a lack of faith in God's plan. That's why I listed it as a reason under "sinful reasons". Of course Christians have doubts. Listen... as Christians, we're not saying we're perfect people. It's exactly the opposite. We're saying we're a broken people. Sinful, evil, disrespectful and unworthy of God. However, God in His great Glory, Grace, Mercy, and Righteousness sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. It is by the blood of Christ that we are redeemed. By Grace we are saved through faith.

Aren't we always taking scriptures out of context....Ill post it asap, don't have it right now.

Yes, you are. Thank you, I would really appreciate it.

If they trust him then why do they pray for him to change his mind and why do they fear death?

Change His mind on what? I explained why we fear death. We are humans and we are sinful.

The bible says Satan is The God of this World my friend

No it doesn't. Give me a passage, Mr. Bible Scholar.