"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #10]

Hearing from that person long after they died verifies (to the person hearing at least) that He a) spoke truthfully, and b) did indeed come back to life after having died.

Or it may verify that the one doing the hearing may need to seek psychiatric help.

[tam]

Peace to you Realworldjack,

[Replying to tam in post #10]

Hearing from that person long after they died verifies (to the person hearing at least) that He a) spoke truthfully, and b) did indeed come back to life after having died.

Or it may verify that the one doing the hearing may need to seek psychiatric help.

I am curious how a believer (one who truly believes in Christ and that He is alive) reconciles that comment with Christ's own words that His sheep listen to His voice? Or with the examples in what is written of His sheep doing just that, even after His death and resurrection and ascension (Paul, Ananais, Philip, John of Patmos, Peter...)?


Peace again to you!

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #12]

It's sort of funny, because in that very same passage Jesus refers to Himself as a "door" but I am certain you do not consider Jesus to actually be a door. However, when Jesus says, "my sheep hear my voice" you actually take this to mean that we are to hear the actual voice of Jesus in our ears. This is a very reckless and dangerous theology because it encourages Christians to walk around with their spiritual antennas in the air claiming to hear the actual voice of Jesus, as if they have some sort of direct line to God. God has ordained means of communications with Him, such as prayer, baptism, communion, and the preached word. When we become dissatisfied with the ordained means which God has supplied, we will create our own means. This is exactly why Martin Luther said, "there are those who believe they have swallowed The Holy Spirit, feathers and all." If you do not understand the reference to "feathers" Luther is comparing the reference to The Holy Spirit as a dove. Of course, we do not really consider The Holy Spirit to be an actual dove, in the same way we do not believe that Jesus meant that we would actually hear His voice in our ears today. Luther also stated, "there are those who believe they are ascending the ladder of God, who want to see God in the nude, but when they ascend this ladder, they will not discover God, but rather Satan."

As I said, this is a very reckless and dangerous theology, and it is one of the reasons Christianity is in decline today. You seem to claim you hear the voice of Jesus, but there are others who claim to hear the same voice who say something different than what you are saying. Of course, when this occurs, the both of you will insist that the other cannot possibly be hearing the voice of Jesus, since you do not agree as to what Jesus is saying.

As an example, speaker of the house, Mike "Moses" Johnson claims to hear the actual voice of God, and this voice of God has told Mike "Moses" Johnson that he is the "Moses" for the United States. Has the Voice of Jesus you hear informed you that Mike Johnson is the modern day, Moses? Because you see, there are Christians (including me) who do not believe Mike Johnson to be a modern-day Moses, but rather someone who claims to hear from God, whose aim it is to do away with our democracy, and replace it with a theocracy, but it is going to be a theocracy of his choosing.

Allow me to explain it to you this way. There are a whole group of Christians who are attached to what is called the "New Apostolic Reformation" and these folks claim to be hearing directly from God, and they are telling us that Donald Trump has been ordained by God to be the leader of the United States. These folks like you, are claiming to hear directly from God. Has the voice you heard from Jesus told you that Trump has been ordained by God? The thing is, with the position I hold, I can admit that I may be in error. On the other hand, if you and those from the NAR claim to be hearing the voice of God, and or Jesus, then there is no possibility of error on your part, because you can confidently say, "thus says The Lord." In other words, if you are hearing directly from Jesus, then no one can argue with Jesus.

On the other hand, the author to the Hebrews tells his audience some 2000 years ago,

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,

Okay, do you see where it is said "God spoke" past tense? The author goes on to say,

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son

Again, do you see where the author is saying that "in these last days God has spoken" past tense? In other words, God spoke in different ways in the past through the prophets, but in the last days, he has "spoken" (past tense) through Jesus. There is no more speaking because we have all we need, and it is sufficient. There is no more speaking. You do not have a direct line to Jesus. Now let's move on to what Peter has to say,

For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

As you can see, Peter claims to have heard the voice of God on the mountain. Okay, so what is Peter's advice to us? Is it to continue to hear this same voice?

We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Peter does not advise us to continue to hear the voice of God, but to rather "pay attention" to what has already been spoken.

The bottom line is, we have those who are claiming to hear from God directly, and some of those voices are insisting that the voice of God is telling us God has ordained Trump to be our leader. If you believe this to be true, then there is no arguing with God, and all those of us who are convinced that Trump is the wolf to us as the sheep have to be in error, since you all are hearing directly from God. On the other hand, if you do not agree that Trump has been ordained by God, then you are going against what others who claim to be hearing directly from God are saying, and of course, the question then would be, which one of you all are truly hearing directly from God? Or should we rely on what has already been spoken (past tense) and know there is no way in the world Trump has been ordained by God?

Either way, your freedom as a Christian is being threatened by those who are claiming to be hearing from the voice of God directly. You are playing a dangerous game by insisting that you are hearing directly from Jesus, but if you have convinced yourself that you have a direct line to Jesus, then no one can argue with such a thing.

So then, you continue on to insist that you have a direct line to Jesus, as if Jesus is riding beside you in the car every day, while I will rely upon what God has already said, believing it to be sufficient. Is what God has supplied is Scripture enough? Or do you need more?

[tam]

Peace to you RWJ,

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #13]

While I go through your post, perhaps you might ponder the following questions:

1 - How did Peter know to go to Cornelius?
2 - How did Phillip know to go to the Ethiopian Eunuch?
3 - How did Ananias know to go to Saul/Paul?

Peace again.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #14]

Do you not think I have pondered such things? How about the fact that God has spoken (past tense) and there is no more need of speaking, because what God has supplied to us is sufficient, meaning it is enough, all we need? Is what God has supplied in Scripture enough? Or do we need more?

Next, you are avoiding the question as to whether or not you agree as to whether Mike "Moses" Johnson, who claims to have heard directly from God that he is the modern day, Moses. Is your direct line to Jesus telling you the same thing?

[JehovahsWitness]

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

A reasonable person will choose to believe an event, even an extraordinary or supernatural one if ...

- they personally witnessed it,
- have access to reliable* eyewitness reports (especially multiple independent ones)
- it is in line with logical realities

* reliable as in reports from individual that do not display indications of psychosis or mental disorder

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #14]

While I go through your post, perhaps you might ponder the following questions:

1 - How did Peter know to go to Cornelius?
2 - How did Phillip know to go to the Ethiopian Eunuch?
3 - How did Ananias know to go to Saul/Paul?

How in the world could you possibly translate any of the above to mean that you hear directly from Jesus? Could it be possible that "God spoke in the past in different ways, but in these last days He has spoken?" My friend, there is nothing left for God to say to us, since he has spoken to us through the prophets, and finally through the death and resurrection of Jesus. What else to we need to hear?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #12]

It's sort of funny, because in that very same passage Jesus refers to Himself as a "door" but I am certain you do not consider Jesus to actually be a door.

A lifeless wooden or steel gate, of course not. But He is the entrance or way through whom we must pass to enter into Life, or to come to the Father.

However, when Jesus says, "my sheep hear my voice" you actually take this to mean that we are to hear the actual voice of Jesus in our ears.

Not a physical voice in the physical ears - my Lord is spirit, and He speaks as the Spirit. We hear Him within us. But this is still His voice - as the Spirit - speaking to us.

Certainly possible to ignore (or dismiss or attribute to something else) if you don't want to hear Him.

My Lord has spoken to me since childhood (perhaps even sooner.) But I did not always know it was Him.

This is a very reckless and dangerous theology because it encourages Christians to walk around with their spiritual antennas in the air claiming to hear the actual voice of Jesus, as if they have some sort of direct line to God.

A direct line to the Son of God, Christ Jaheshua.

Why do you think that is dangerous? Just because there are liars and lying spirits? That is why John also told us to 'test the spirits/inspired expressions.' If there was nothing out there speaking and nothing to hear, why would he tell us to test anything? What would there be for us to test?

God has ordained means of communications with Him, such as prayer, baptism, communion, and the preached word.

How many lying preachers are out there? How many people have been misled by lying or ignorant preachers, false religions led by preachers? Do you not consider that to be dangerous?

When we become dissatisfied with the ordained means which God has supplied, we will create our own means.

Since Christ said that His sheep would listen to His voice, that He would even call them by name - and since there are examples of Him speaking to His sheep and them listening to His voice (after His death and resurrection and ascension)... it can hardly be a means we created ourselves.

Perhaps you might consider that the issue is on the other side: a lack of faith - in Him, and in Him truly being alive.

Living Beings speak. How could it possibly make sense that the Living Word of God does not speak?

This is exactly why Martin Luther said, "there are those who believe they have swallowed The Holy Spirit, feathers and all." If you do not understand the reference to "feathers" Luther is comparing the reference to The Holy Spirit as a dove. Of course, we do not really consider The Holy Spirit to be an actual dove,

Holy spirit is not ever called a dove. The holy spirit is described as descending like a dove. It is a simile, and it is not holy spirit that is being compared, but rather how holy spirit descended (like a dove.)

in the same way we do not believe that Jesus meant that we would actually hear His voice in our ears today.

I did not say 'in our ears.'

However, if you don't believe that Christ meant what He said - or the examples showing that He did indeed mean that His sheep would listen to His voice - what would you suggest 'His voice' is a metaphor or simile of?

Luther also stated, "there are those who believe they are ascending the ladder of God, who want to see God in the nude, but when they ascend this ladder, they will not discover God, but rather Satan."

Suggesting what? That Satan can speak, but the Living Word of God cannot?

As I said, this is a very reckless and dangerous theology, and it is one of the reasons Christianity is in decline today.

"Christianity" is in decline because more and more people are seeing the falsehood in religion - and the lies and hypocrisies of the religious leaders.

At least some are hearing the call to "Come out of her, my people!"

But you think that is more dangerous than the lying preacher, the false religions, all misleading people? Either by causing them to give up their faith (perhaps because their faith had actually been put in men and religion - and when those men and that religion prove false, they think the whole thing mus be false)... or by keeping them captive to the religion, and preventing them from coming to Christ and to His Father.

And there are religions that teach people that there is nowhere else to go - never teaching them that it is not a 'where' but rather a 'whom'.

"Lord to WHOM would we go? YOU have the words of eternal life."

You seem to claim you hear the voice of Jesus,

Jaheshua - meaning JAH saves/salvation of JAH.

but there are others who claim to hear the same voice who say something different than what you are saying.

And there are plenty of preachers who say different things and who all claim this is what the bible says. Why doesn't that stop you from promoting and accepting 'preaching' as a valid means of communication with God?

You don't take people's word for it. You test the inspired expression. You bring it to Christ. You hold all things up to Him - listen to HIM, believe HIS words. He is the Truth. Test also against love - because God is love, and nothing that comes from Him will be against love. My dear Lord taught me these things.


What is the point of John telling people to 'test the spirit/inspired expression' if we are instead supposed to reject every spirit/inspired expression?

Of course, when this occurs, the both of you will insist that the other cannot possibly be hearing the voice of Jesus, since you do not agree as to what Jesus is saying.

So test the inspired expression. It could be that one (or both) of us has misunderstood something, or added/taken away from what we heard. It could also be the someone is listening to a lying spirit. People also lie.

So hold all things up to Christ - He is the Light and the Truth.

As an example, speaker of the house, Mike "Moses" Johnson claims to hear the actual voice of God, and this voice of God has told Mike "Moses" Johnson that he is the "Moses" for the United States. Has the Voice of Jesus you hear informed you that Mike Johnson is the modern day, Moses? Because you see, there are Christians (including me) who do not believe Mike Johnson to be a modern-day Moses, but rather someone who claims to hear from God, whose aim it is to do away with our democracy, and replace it with a theocracy, but it is going to be a theocracy of his choosing.

I would know this claim is false. There is no need for 'another Moses', because we have Christ - who lives and who speaks, and we are to listen to Him. He is the mediator between man and God. Not Mike Johnson.

Christ also said that His Kingdom is not of this world.

If Mike Johnson made specific individual claims - then I could also test those, hold them up to Christ.

Allow me to explain it to you this way. There are a whole group of Christians who are attached to what is called the "New Apostolic Reformation" and these folks claim to be hearing directly from God, and they are telling us that Donald Trump has been ordained by God to be the leader of the United States. These folks like you, are claiming to hear directly from God. Has the voice you heard from Jesus told you that Trump has been ordained by God? The thing is, with the position I hold, I can admit that I may be in error. On the other hand, if you and those from the NAR claim to be hearing the voice of God, and or Jesus, then there is no possibility of error on your part, because you can confidently say, "thus says The Lord." In other words, if you are hearing directly from Jesus, then no one can argue with Jesus.

(not American - just fyi...)

Although I'm not sure what is meant here by the word 'ordain'... there's nothing particularly wrong about the claim of Donald Trump being raised up to this position by God. You don't need to have heard from God (or rather, His Son - because God speaks through His Son) to accept that though.

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

That would include Obama though (and I suspect that this group of yours wouldn't like that claim as much).

Remember, God also raised up Pharaoh for a specific purpose. (I'm not saying Trump is or is not Pharaoh; that is not my concern, my concern is Christ and bearing witness to him, listening to Him, remaining in Him.)

It didn't turn out so well for Pharaoh at the time, but at the end, Israel had been set free AND many non-Israelite people (including Egyptians) also left Egypt to follow God.

Regardless, my Lord's Kingdom is not from this place. He will establish His Kingdom on the earth, Himself, when He returns - and He is my King. My job - my purpose - is to bear witness to Christ, to give praise to JAH and to His Son.

On the other hand, the author to the Hebrews tells his audience some 2000 years ago,

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,

Okay, do you see where it is said "God spoke" past tense? The author goes on to say,

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.

Again, do you see where the author is saying that "in these last days God has spoken" past tense?

In other words, God spoke in different ways in the past through the prophets, but in the last days, he has "spoken" (past tense) through Jesus. There is no more speaking because we have all we need, and it is sufficient. There is no more speaking. You do not have a direct line to Jesus.

"Has spoken" does not mean 'will not speak again.'

The author of Hebrews could not have meant that God would no longer speak through His Son.

Christ gave the revelation (from God) to John of Patmos.

Christ - who is the Spirit - sent Phillip to the Ethiopian Eunuch.

Christ had an entire conversation with Ananias when sending Ananias to Saul/Paul.

Christ - who is the Spirit - appeared to Paul and spoke to Him.

Clearly (according to the evidence at hand), 'in these last days, God has spoken to us by His Son' - cannot have meant that it was a one-time deal that had passed.

Now let's move on to what Peter has to say,

For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

As you can see, Peter claims to have heard the voice of God on the mountain. Okay, so what is Peter's advice to us? Is it to continue to hear this same voice?

We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Peter does not advise us to continue to hear the voice of God, but to rather "pay attention" to what has already been spoken.

Peter states that he is an eyewitness to these things. First hand witness.

As the spirit has reminded me, that prophetic message are the ones that were bearing witness to Christ.

“These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.”

You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.

When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father—He will testify about Me. 27And you also must testify, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Peter is telling people that He is an eyewitness to Christ (and to what God said on that mountain), and that the prophecies from the scriptures also testify to Christ.

That is what a witness does - bears witness to Christ, and invites people to come to Christ, to listen to Him.

The Spirit and the Bride SAY, "Come!"

Both Christ and His Church (His people, the people who are in Him) speak.

As for Peter, he most definitely did not teach people that Christ does not continue to speak and teach. How else did Peter know to go to Cornelius? How else did Peter know that he was not to call Gentiles unclean?

He did not learn it from a preacher. He did not learn it from a religion. He did not learn it from a book.

He learned that from Christ, Himself.

The bottom line is, we have those who are claiming to hear from God directly, and some of those voices are insisting that the voice of God is telling us God has ordained Trump to be our leader. If you believe this to be true, then there is no arguing with God, and all those of us who are convinced that Trump is the wolf to us as the sheep have to be in error, since you all are hearing directly from God.

On the other hand, if you do not agree that Trump has been ordained by God, then you are going against what others who claim to be hearing directly from God are saying, and of course, the question then would be, which one of you all are truly hearing directly from God? Or should we rely on what has already been spoken (past tense) and know there is no way in the world Trump has been ordained by God?

(I will just refer back to the earlier comments on the matter of Trump or any other leader.)

Either way, your freedom as a Christian is being threatened by those who are claiming to be hearing from the voice of God directly.

My freedom is in and from Christ.

As for this world, Christ warned us that it would be hard, that we would be hated, persecuted, etc. There is going to be a 'great tribulation.' Freedom in this world will be threatened. There is always going to be difficulty in this world, until Christ returns.

But either I have faith in Christ (and so also His Father) to get me through it, to save me and direct me, to keep me in Him - or I don't have that faith and instead rely upon the world and its leaders to keep me safe.

I choose Christ.

You are playing a dangerous game by insisting that you are hearing directly from Jesus,

From Jaheshua - and it is not a game; it is simply true. He truly was resurrected, He truly is alive, and He truly speaks.

but if you have convinced yourself that you have a direct line to Jesus, then no one can argue with such a thing.

Yet here you are somehow managing to do just that (argue with such a thing).

As for anything I share as I have learned from my Lord - I am not suggesting you take my word for it or that you listen to or follow ME. Come to, listen to, and follow Christ. Hold everything up to Him (the Truth and the Light). Test also against love, because God is love.


May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to hear the truth of this or any other matter from the One who is the Truth and Word and Holy One of God: Christ Jaheshua, the Chosen One of JAH.

May any who thirst and any who wish, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace again to you,

[Replying to tam in post #14]

While I go through your post, perhaps you might ponder the following questions:

1 - How did Peter know to go to Cornelius?
2 - How did Phillip know to go to the Ethiopian Eunuch?
3 - How did Ananias know to go to Saul/Paul?

How in the world could you possibly translate any of the above to mean that you hear directly from Jesus? Could it be possible that "God spoke in the past in different ways, but in these last days He has spoken?" My friend, there is nothing left for God to say to us, since he has spoken to us through the prophets, and finally through the death and resurrection of Jesus. What else to we need to hear?

Are you aware that you did not answer the questions?

If you did answer them, you might also know the answer to your question "what else do we need to hear?"

Peace again!

[OneJack]

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #15]

How about the fact that God has spoken (past tense)

Yes, it’s a fact!

and there is no more need of speaking, because what God has supplied to us is sufficient, meaning it is enough, all we need?

Never in any part of the bible did God say this narrative, verbatim, did God? God is real and forever living, and He is not the bible for us to know what our souls need to attain salvation. God speaks with mankind across all generations, but many ignore Him because of the bible today.

Is what God has supplied in Scripture enough?

No!

Or do we need more?

Jesus Himself is what and who we need for the salvation of our souls.