JWs and Contradition

[POI]

The JW.org website states they are not antiscience. This sounds like a rational position. (i.e.):

"Although Jehovahs Witnesses believe in creation, we are not antiscience. We believe that true science and the Bible are compatible."

JW.org also states:

"Evil and suffering. These began when one of Gods angels rebelled. (John 8:44) This angel, who after his rebellion was called "Satan" and "Devil," persuaded the first human couple to join him, and the consequences have been disastrous for their descendants. (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12) In order to settle the moral issues raised by Satan, God has allowed evil and suffering, but He will not permit them to continue forever."

For debate: If no evil/suffering existed before the "fall of man", then why do we have evidence that evil/suffering existed prior to the fall of man?

Receipts #1: Dinosaurs exists prior to humans. Fossils exist, of dinosaurs sustaining injury:(http://www.forbes.com/sites/shaenamonta ... 28ccf42e8c)

Receipt #2: More dinosaur suffering: (https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ing-about/)

[TRANSPONDER]

Duplicare sorry

No prob. I do that sometimes. However, the question is really part of the wider one - evolution - denial by some Christian groups, and indeed Muslim apologetics, too. They absolutely copy the Christian anti - evolution arguments.

I had one JW come to the door for an argument and of course we quickly got to evolution denial. Like Maga propaganda (e.g immigrants eating pets and taking over towns) it sounds convincing, if you don't know that it is just not true. This lady proffered the crafty lie 'No transitional fossils'. This of course means 'we deny those transitional fossils really are' but you can bet they won't correct you if you misunderstand it as 'evolutionists cannot point to any transitional fossils'.

So you, JW may say this is or is not what JW propaganda says, but if evolution - denial is part of their propaganda, it would fit with the creationist picture that man was made all in one go about 8,000 years ago, any hominid fossils are either just apes or just men and nothing transitional, and so dinosaurs and all other critters must have existed before the Fall.

Pre - fall dinosaurs must be a Thing if dinosaurs were made along with all the other critters in one week and before man had fallen. In the 80's, when I first started on this lark, I assumed that the Flood would handily explain the extinction of dinosaurs. You would absolutely Not want to have to cram them critters on the Ark along with the existing species. So I was astonished to be told 'The dinosaurs were on the Ark'. Why would you do that? You have to save All the pref historic species, not just dinosaurs, and then have to get shot of them before human records started without dinosaurs about (and we can leave the Behemoth, leviathan and unicorn debate until later). Why would Creationists make such a problematic misstep?

I think this came about because of dinosaur tracks found in what was claimed to be Flood level strata. So they must have survived the flood. Creationists were stuck with it and once claimed, like Maga propaganda, it became God's truth.

So we had dinosaurs existing before and after the fall and of course, the flood, later on. Before the fall, everything was perfect. The lion played games with the lamb and wolves curled up with rabbits, and man....er....ate grass along with T Rex. Surely he didn't kill these critters or the Baryma - basics that had to be originally created that could all fit on the ark?

Dog, cat- kind, running Dino, Walking on all fours dino, sheep, cattle, ravens, doves, basic bird that would super evolve into all the other species, Pakicetus to super - evolve into all the cetan species after the flood.

Point being that Dinosaurs and the other carnivores did not kill and eat other animals before the fall. So when Man fell he took down the rest of creation with him. The lion was cropping grass along with Sheep - kind when suddenly his teeth turned to fangs in his head. "What the heck...?' "Ha!" laughed the raven who was pretty smart, though not as cunning as the legged snake. "No more vegan diet for you. Those bipedal clowns ate the fruit - I knew they would, and now you'll have to start killing and eating sheep - kind."

"What? I din't disobey God. Why do i suddenly have to become a killer and cannibal?"

"Who are you to question God? It's all part of His Plan and will come Good in the end, so this is all as perfect as a presidential phone - call, so start killing and eating."

I'll leave it there with just the observation that I am so glad that i don't have to try to excuse or ignore any of this to myself, but I'll just mention that since of course, the Creation museum actually claims that humans rode on dinosaurs, this has become a bit of a joke - meme. But I did see a vid that popped up showing a purported bit of rock - art showing a stick man mounted on one of the running dinosaurs. I didn't respond to this clickbait and would rather leave it to either be a true artefact that needs explaining or its' a fake, which I'll bet on, and this bit of clickbait will vanish without trace, like a failed end of world prophecy.

[POI]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #9]

Is human suffering different from animal suffering?

suf-fer-ing
/sf()riNG/
noun
the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship.

****************************************

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=suffering+definition

Reasoning From the Scriptures

Suffering
Definition: The experience undergone by a person when enduring pain or distress. The suffering may be physical, mental, or emotional. Many things can cause suffering; for example, the damage done as a result of war and of commercial greed, adverse hereditary factors, illness, accidents, "natural disasters," unkind things said or done by others, demonic pressures, an awareness of impending calamity, or ones own foolishness. Suffering that results from these various causes will be considered here. However, suffering may also be experienced because of a persons sensitivity to the plight of other people or his grief at observing ungodly conduct.

*******************************************

Sounds like you are merely twisting terms, to taste. If suffering did not exist before the sin of man, then dinosaurs would not show clear evidence of suffering. The second link shows evidence of dinosaur osteoarthritis and what looks to be very painful injuries.

[POI]

...why do we have evidence that evil/suffering existed prior to the fall of man?

Receipts #1: Dinosaurs exists prior to humans. Fossils exist, of dinosaurs sustaining injury:(http://www.forbes.com/sites/shaenamonta ... 28ccf42e8c)

Receipt #2: More dinosaur suffering: (https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ing-about/)

Why would anyone think fall of man happened after dinosaurs?

That's not what I said. It looks as though some JWs think suffering did not happen until after "the fall of man". JWs also acknowledge that dinosaurs were long gone before humans came around. Now, it looks like JehovahsWitness is going to try and re-invent the term 'suffering', to wiggle out of the blatant contradiction in which his belief system looks to be within. In that suffering did not exist until humans.

[JehovahsWitness]

suffering did not exist until humans.

JW.org also states:

"Evil and suffering. These began when one of Gods angels rebelled. (John 8:44)

[POI]

suffering did not exist until humans.

JW.org also states:

"Evil and suffering. These began when one of Gods angels rebelled. (John 8:44)

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/goo ... suffering/

"Evil began on earth when Satan told the first lie. Satan was originally a perfect angel, but "he did not stand fast in the truth." (John 8:44) He developed a desire for worship that rightly belongs only to God. Satan lied to the first woman, Eve, and persuaded her to obey him instead of God. Adam joined Eve in disobeying God. Adams decision led to suffering and death."

*****************

Sorry, but your goose is cooked. Suffering did not begin until humans. Dinosaurs, who were long gone before humans, also suffered. This is a direct contradiction. All you can try to do here now, is to begin vast amounts of apologetics.

[JehovahsWitness]

suffering did not exist until humans.

JW.org also states:

"Evil and suffering. These began when one of Gods angels rebelled. (John 8:44)

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/goo ... suffering/

"Evil began on earth when Satan told the first lie.

Evil began [in heaven] when Satan rebelled.
Evil began on earth when Adam believed Satan's lie.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE ORIGINAL SIN

.

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS WEBSITE COMMENT ON POSSIBLE SUFFERING OF DINOSAURS ?

No. Other than acknowledging their existence , the Jehovahs Witness makes no comment on the health of dinosaurs.



DOES THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE OF JWs INDICATE IN ANY WAY THAT DINOSAURS MAY INDEED HAVE SUFFERED PRIOR TO THE ORIGINAL SIN?

Yes, since the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that animals were not purposed to live forever, their belief system holds that all animals would have been subject of the natural cycle of birth - aging- - death. Death and (as was the case for dinosaurs) extinction are arguably at the very least distressing. Although not explicitly stated, their beliefs are a de facto acknowledgement of dinosaurs "suffering" in some way before the fall.

* Jehovahs Witnesses hold that God is loving and kind and would not have designed a system where any of his creatures suffered prolonged, excessive and excrutiating pain.


IS THE ABOVE NOT AN ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE EXISTNCE OF SIN AND EVIL AT THAT TIME ?

No because any theoretical "animal suffering" incurred from injury or aging would according to the JW teachings be part of a natural cycle designed by God not caused by sin or evil.

DOES THIS NOT CONTRADICT THE TEACHING THAT SUFFERING BEGAN WITH SIN?

No. The JWs website states explicitly that when they use the term "suffering" in connection with its origins, they are speaking about HUMAN SUFFERING caused by imperfection, sin or evil. (see post #12: viewtopic.php?p=1157783#p1157783). There are absolutely no comments in any JW literature admitting (or denying) the existence of any possible pain or suffering experienced by animals prior to the fall of man; to therefore suggest a contradiction is present when no statement has been made on the subject, is an argument from silence.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


FURTHER READING A Life Without PainIs It Really Possible?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101978001



RELATED POSTS

To what does the Jehovahs Witness website refer when it uses the term "suffering"?
viewtopic.php?p=1157783#p1157783

Is there any statement from the Jehovahs Witness leadership that no physical pain or distress was experiences by any animals prior to the fall into sin?
viewtopic.php?p=1157764#p1157764

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time?
viewtopic.php?p=1157715#p1157715

[POI]

suffering did not exist until humans.

JW.org also states:

"Evil and suffering. These began when one of Gods angels rebelled. (John 8:44)

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/goo ... suffering/

"Evil began on earth when Satan told the first lie.

Evil began [in heaven] when Satan rebelled.
Evil began on earth when Adam believed Satan's lie.


.

Are we now specifically speaking about evil alone, which is not what I was specifically discussing? Or, do you now acknowledge that (evil/suffering) is cut from the same cloth?

[POI]

DOES THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS WEBSITE COMMENT ON POSSIBLE SUFFERING OF DINOSAURS ?

No. Other than acknowledging their existence , the Jehovahs Witness makes no comment on the health of dinosaurs.

I wouldn't expect this arena to. Just like I would not expect your organization to spend too much time on any other (animal/creature) aside from humans, as humans are the focus. But the implication still stands. It's clear dinosaurs, and other 'creatures' before "the fall", suffered.

DOES THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE OF JWs INDICATE IN ANY WAY THAT DINOSAURS MAY INDEED HAVE SUFFERED PRIOR TO THE ORIGINAL SIN?

Yes, since the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that animals were not purposed to live forever, their belief system holds that all animals would have been subject of the natural cycle of birth - aging- - death. Death and (as was the case for dinosaurs) extinction are arguably at the very least distressing. Although not explicitly stated, their beliefs are a de facto acknowledgement of dinosaurs "suffering" in some way before the fall.

So, you acknowledge suffering did exist before the presence of humans, okay.

IS THE ABOVE NOT AN ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE EXISTNCE OF SIN AND EVIL AT THAT TIME ?

No because any theoretical "animal suffering" incurred from injury or aging would according to the JW teachings be part of a natural cycle designed by God and not be classified as "evil".

That's a flowery way to put it. Most animals endure more suffering than most humans. The wild is called the wild, for a reason. If JWs are just modifying definitions to taste, I'm not going to be able to possibly kick the ball successfully between the goalposts, especially when JWs perpetually move it.

DOES THIS NOT CONTRADICT THE TEACHING THAT SUFFERING BEGAN WITH SIN?

No. The JWs Web sites states explicitly that when they use the term "suffering" in connection with its origins, they are speaking about HUMAN SUFFERING caused by imperfection, sin or evil. (see post #15: viewtopic.php?p=1157826#p1157826)

The quote states suffering, and that's it. Not human specific suffering. Sorry. Nice try. The original quote, from your cite, shows both humans and animals in the pic.

[JehovahsWitness]

. (see post #15: viewtopic.php?p=1157826#p1157826)

Reference corrected in edit ( post #12).