Job 12: Is God active in the Natural World?

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Job12:
7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this?
10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind

Somebody mentioned an Evolution phobia among Christians. What about a complete nature phobia?

Is God still turning up for work in our natural world?
(the best of Biblical Scripture states that he is).

Do you detect God in the natural world?

Why is this aspect of God largely ommitted from doctrine and discussion?
Is the mystical more attractive than the real?
Is Job correct in stating an awareness of God in all of creation?
Your opinion on this matter, please!

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

Again ,thank you for your response to this subject. You have been engaging with Christian theists for quite some time. Can I ask you for your insights on this section of the OP.

'Somebody mentioned an Evolution phobia among Christians. What about a complete nature phobia?'

In your objective experience, is this a valid observation? Is there a complete nature phobia, in Christian doctrines and discussions???.

I am an outdoor, 'country boy', and I feel nature in the Jesus psyche, and in the writings of the OT....but in modern Christian churches, all I see are the flowers on the Altars and Angels on high.
Help me,T!

I'm not sure what 'complete nature phobia' means. I use this argument; knowing about how things work, and what they are only increases the awesomeness, and makes 'nature' more than just a cosmic billboard for advertising a god (name your own, anyway).

I prefer not to talk of 'phobia'. It is a bit too easy and cheap a trick to suggests that someone holds a belief because they are afraid of the alternative. I credit Christians (and anyone else) with their beliefs because of reasons. I think the Christian reasons are not good ones, but I don't use the argument that they are just afraid of atheism (even if they are )

I have been a Buddhist (sorta) and I felt the wonder and aspiration of the flowers and altars and Temples and this to me is tapping into a human instinct for wonder at nature and inspirational and aspirational feelings. But this is nothing (in my view) to do with anything supernatural let alone any particular god or religion. I may say that some of the greatest inspiration is in great music, but it is as old fashioned as the idea that the god of Christianity is a god that takes sides in wars (not that old fashioned means entirely out of fashion) to think that the creation of music is anything to do with gods, even if people have created it to praise God upon the harpe, timbrel and sackbut, let alone the guitar, drums and someone yelling in a microphone.

"Any Xcuse".

I liked this better than Karajan online, which didn't thrill me. This did, even if it's a bit swift.



Ok, you can just get the opening to see why it is inspirational even if I don't share the composer's Faith. Note the 'prayer' ostinato in the strings, all the way through, which is also in the 'completed' finale of the 9th, which is a clue to what it is about and why Bruckner (on his deathbed) may have suggested using the Te Deum as the finale as he hadn't completed the work.

And there endeth the music history lesson.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - 'The secularist view is that nature is indeed awesome and the more we know about it, the more awesome it is and the less to do with the intent of any god. Mostly it is trying to kill us. That's the evidence. That it is all done to look pretty and for our benefit is just not borne out by the evidence.'
----
What I say,T, is not meant to be negative. Your synopsis appears horizontally flat ,to me. You are learning more to dismiss or eliminate more. You think that the notion that "it was all made to look pretty for us", is a theological push?? What denomination of Christians is canvassing on this? I wish they would! In the JW advert it is the words that count to them, ...the picture is wallpaper.
Christians use the world like it is for their benefit. That we can agree on. It is a place to prepare in.

You said this - "Mostly it is trying to kill us".
You attribute malicious intent to secular nature. How does that work?

Forget about the fact that you affirm an absence of a God ( whatever one you choose) and find a balanced appraisal of the natural world we are in.

Why is the world trying to kill us?

What is death in our natural world....surely it is not an intent?

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - 'The secularist view is that nature is indeed awesome and the more we know about it, the more awesome it is and the less to do with the intent of any god. Mostly it is trying to kill us. That's the evidence. That it is all done to look pretty and for our benefit is just not borne out by the evidence.'
----
What I say,T, is not meant to be negative. Your synopsis appears horizontally flat ,to me. You are learning more to dismiss or eliminate more. You think that the notion that "it was all made to look pretty for us", is a theological push?? What denomination of Christians is canvassing on this? I wish they would! In the JW advert it is the words that count to them, ...the picture is wallpaper.
Christians use the world like it is for their benefit. That we can agree on. It is a place to prepare in.

You said this - "Mostly it is trying to kill us".
You attribute malicious intent to secular nature. How does that work?

Forget about the fact that you affirm an absence of a God ( whatever one you choose) and find a balanced appraisal of the natural world we are in.

Why is the world trying to kill us?

What is death in our natural world....surely it is not an intent?

It is a not infrequent apologetic that the problem with science is that it robs nature of it awesomeness. That of course does not make it wrong, but is part of the 'We need it, true or not' package. Religion (the Right One of course) is better, even if it wasn't true.

This is wrong and I argue hat understanding nature makes it more than less amazing.

The claim that we are preparing for something is just a faithclaim. In the 'Atheist Afterlife' it doesn't even matter, and I maintain that it is pointless atbest to pretend that how we act in this world is goit to gain (or lose) us entry points to the afterlife, if there is one.

No one religion is selling 'admit one' tickets to the Next World. But religions have bamboozled and exploited people by pretending to be the only one that can get you into the afterlife. Don't let them do it to you.

Of course the world is not deliberately trying to kill us. It is just that it was not made to sustain life and Life rather has had to find ways to exist survive and it has had a tough time of it too, from Snowball earth that came close to eliminating the first organic blobs through the Triassic extinction (that killed off most of the Cambrian Explosion' so there) to the KT event of the Cretaceous, which nevertheless enabled mammals to dominate in the end. We are here because of luck, not because anyone was trying to help us.

I don't know about death. Maybe nobody does. Why don't things live forever? But they don't for all we know. But I would bet my stamp collection (including the £5 Victorian) that the tale that everything once lived forever (and T Rex ate salad) but God made everything mortal because someone scrumped an apple is not true.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "Of course the world is not deliberately trying to kill us. It is just that it was not made to sustain life and Life rather has had to find ways to exist survive and it has had a tough time of it too"

This is even worse than the first time, T!
Have another go. Is life happening or struggling?
Why do you think it is struggling???
Why was it not made to sustain life?
I can only interpret you via your words.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "Of course the world is not deliberately trying to kill us. It is just that it was not made to sustain life and Life rather has had to find ways to exist survive and it has had a tough time of it too"

This is even worse than the first time, T!
Have another go. Is life happening or struggling?
Why do you think it is struggling???
Why was it not made to sustain life?
I can only interpret you via your words.

Life struggles as it happens. We struggle every day, with illness, that debilitates us, labour to find what we need to survive. An environment that knocks us over with earthquakes, floods, famines. That humans have devised ways to make life easier and safer hasn't made that go away. Why would you suppose it has? What tunnel vision has made you suppose that our existence (and all the biosphere) is anything else?

Why was it not made to sustain Life? Because nobody said it should.

Of course, in a way, it was. The biochemicals needed for organic life were there and the components for air and water. One might even argue that the supernovae provided the heavy elements needed for our industry and technology, but I doubt that you would argue that the cosmos though it would be handy to provide all the basics wed need for the Industrial Revolution.
'
Never mind a God doing it

"Look, if I don't make metal ores part of the earth's crust, however are the Jews going to make swords to use to slaughter the Amalekites and take their women?"

I interpret you thoughts through your words, too and so far it seems you are struggling to penetrate the limits of what you are used to seeing through to what there actually is, but I'm willing to help you get there.

"I'm not trying to rob you, I'm trying to help you." (Gandalf),.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "Why was it not made to sustain Life? Because nobody said it should.
Of course, in a way, it was"
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Thanks for your help! I had a Jack Russell who used to run around in circles. He was trying to cheer me up as well.

Figure it out ,T.!

Our creation cannot be defined as an homage to struggle. Christians often share this outlook. You sound like you are on the same mission as they are, ie trying to work your way out of here. The Jews thought that the Kingdom of God would be an actuality, here on earth, but then again, ..what would they know.

[JehovahsWitness]

"The bible states that God will call to account those that are ruin the planet, so naturally we individually and collective behave in a way that shows we believe this to be true."

So stand back and watch as they meet their doom[?]

Not at all. While Christians are not charged to form political parties or lobby groups to initiate govermental change, they have been commissioned by Christ to help those that are receptive, to conform to God's standards; this would include to respect God's creation. So, no JWs do not just "stand back"

Our out reach work includes public campaigns, telephoning , letter writing , the Internet as well as personal home visits with the aim to effectuate a positive change with those we meet; indeed I doubt any other group has done more in their efforts to actively help individuals AVOID divine condemnation*.


* It should be noted no individual is "doomed" as in, destined for destruction; each person can choose to conform to divine standards and live.

[Masterblaster]

Hello JehovahsWitness

You say - "Our out reach work includes public campaigns, telephoning , letter writing , the Internet as well as personal home visits with the aim to effectuate a positive change with those we meet; indeed I doubt any other group has done more in their efforts to actively help individuals AVOID divine condemnation*."
-----'
I asked you previously for the receipts on this.
Destroying the natural world is worthy of God's condemnation. You admit as much. Where are your initiatives on this specific issue. You said previously that your church regards this as a non-church matter.

A man beating his dog on the front lawn, a man carving his girlfriend's name,(Philomena), on a park tree or a third man pickpocketing a passerby.

Which one would be your immediate priority?

JehovahsWitness says...
"Faith does not have a colour and as I said, our religion exists to worship the creator not to support any environmental movements."
"While Christians are not charged to form political parties or lobby groups to initiate govermental change, they have been commissioned by Christ to help those that are receptive, to conform to God's standards; this would include to respect God's creation"
------

Please show me the stuff, JW!

[JehovahsWitness]

Hello JehovahsWitness

You say - "Our out reach work includes public campaigns, telephoning , letter writing , the Internet as well as personal home visits with the aim to effectuate a positive change with those we meet; indeed I doubt any other group has done more in their efforts to actively help individuals AVOID divine condemnation*."
-----'
I asked you previously for the receipts on this.
Destroying the natural world is worthy of God's condemnation. You admit as much. Where are your initiatives on this specific issue.

I already explained, if someone is disespectful of the planet we contact them and teach them about the bible and if they accept it they will cease to be disrespectful of the planet.

Respect for life and God's creation is all a component of having a Bible study with Jehovah's Witnesses.

That is our initiative.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

A man beating his dog on the front lawn, a man carving his girlfriend's name,(Philomena), on a park tree or a third man pickpocketing a passerby.

Which one would be your immediate priority?

We preach to everybody without prejudice: so we don't judge one person as more important than another.

We visit criminals in prison, wife beaters and people that drop litter on the street. Our message is the same for everyone, learn about the God of the bible and live by his standards: the result? Those that let the message touch their hearts leave their criminal or antisocial behaviours behind.

And the community and ultimately the planet, benefits.

NOTE Everyone has the personal responsibility to report criminal behaviour to law enforcement agencies so witnessing a pickpocket or someone engaged in animal cruelty should be reported to the authorities.

JW