Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #1

Post by Blastcat »

Hi gang !

Once again, while showering, something came to mind...

William Lane Craig is famous for his re-working of the old Kalam Cosmological argument for the existence of God. Here it is in a nut-shell for those who might need a bit of a refresher. Craig states the Kalam cosmological argument as a brief syllogism, most commonly rendered as follows:

______________

The argument:

P1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
P2. The universe began to exist;

Therefore:

C1. The universe has a cause.

From the conclusion of the initial syllogism, he appends a further premise and conclusion based upon ontological analysis of the properties of the cause:

P3. The universe has a cause;
P4. If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;

Therefore:

C. An uncased, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.

____________

This thread wants to take a good look at P1. that is, the very first premise of the argument that states :"Whatever begins to exist has a cause."

As in all arguments, if we accept that this premise is true, we move on to the next premise, and so on, to it's conclusion that must follow from one to the next without any gaps.

Now, if we cannot demonstrate that a premise in the argument is TRUE, then the argument may be VALID, but not sound. The conclusion we get from an argument is just as weak as it's weakest link, so to speak.

So, what about the first premise?

Is it TRUE that "Whatever begins to exist has a cause"?

I am a skeptic at heart, so I am suspicious about that.


Let me give some preliminary reasons, that I got while showering with my Spiderman "Spidey Sense" Soft Soap ®... ( very refreshing ) :


1. Right off the bat, I would have my skeptical spidey sense tingling by the sentence itself. It seems to imply that some things begin to exist, and that others may not begin to exist. I'm not too sure what that means... What does it MEAN to say that something has a "beginning" to it's existence? What does it MEAN to say that not all things begin to exist? Which kinds of things begin to exist, and which kinds of things don't begin to exist? Now, we need rigorous definitions, don't we? Anyone has those? I sure don't. The more that I look, the more confused I get.

2. It doesn't say what hasn't begun to exist. But I suspect that the case is very well chosen. Some people might protest that there is a difference between saying that something doesn't begin to exist and saying that something hasn't yet begun to exist. We are now having to make a distinction that is very subtly grammatical.

3. Of course, if something has not yet begun to exist, it cannot yet exist. But if we are trying to prove that something has caused the universe, it at least has to exist in some way. Otherwise, the argument... is weird.

4. The Kalam is very old.. It wasn't always phrased the way that WLC does. In fact, WLC has introduced the word "begins to" ... because before we could ask "Who caused God?". So, it seems that Craig wants to save the argument by replacing "exists" by "begins to exist". If only GOD doesn't "begin to exist", then I see special pleading going on.

5. Craig says this about the nature of "God's" infinity:

"God's infinity is, as it were, qualitative, not quantitative. It means that God is metaphysically necessary, morally perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, and so on."

In other words, when Craig uses the term "infinite" to refer to a being who doesn't begin, he isn't talking about numbers, but characteristics. I "began to exist" in the middle 50's. See how that's a number? I could have started counting the years of my "existence" at 0, or 1, or some other NUMBER, but it's weird to think that we don't COUNT things without numbers.. but if there are no NUMBERS, to me, it's weird to say that something began or didn't begin. Time is a series of numbers, one after another.. seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, years.. eons.. we count those, because they are NUMBERED. If it can't be counted, I don't know how it can be called "time", and if it isn't "time" we are talking about.. causation seems a bit weird to be talking about.. and to begin.. implies "time"... so again.. very weird.

So, when I read "Whatever BEGINS to exist.." I think "What on earth is Craig talking about"? A quality or a measurable instance of time? If the word BEGINS is an instance of time that is measurable for everything ELSE but "God", this is special pleading once again.

6. The second part.. "A CAUSE" ... this is the really REALLY weird part.. and I will keep it short. You see, Craig doesn't like infinite regresses.. so, the universe can't be it's own cause due to an infinite regress.. what cause the cause of the cause.. and so on.. Physical matter NOT of this universe can't be the cause because.. what's the cause of THAT.. and so on.. more infinite regress. The very ODD thing about Craig's solution, "God", is that it is eternal in the past.. In other words, it seems to "cause the cause of the cause of the cause.. " in an infinite regress. To me, and this is just preliminary thinking, he solves one infinity.. "Cause" with another infinity "God".


Just some thoughts.. I have my doubts about the first premise.

_____________

So, here are the questions for debate:


1. Is it true that things that have a beginning have a cause?
2. How something hasn't begun to exist, continue to exist?

_____________


:)

benchwarmer
Guru
Posts: 2359
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:40 am
Has thanked: 2022 times
Been thanked: 797 times

Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #11

Post by benchwarmer »

hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 6 by benchwarmer]

Yes, but see, that isn't quite fair to Craig or those of us theists who may disagree with hem. It could also be said that if you deny God, then shockingly you end up with a conclusion denying God.
I hear what you are saying, but I'm not proposing a different argument, I'm just pointing out the flaw in the one presented. You seem to be suggesting that there is an argument that 'proves' there is no God by first presupposing there isn't one. Maybe there is, but that has nothing to do with pointing out the problems with the KCA.

hoghead1 wrote: See what I mean? Smear mashed potatoes on one side of teh equation and you have to smear mashed potatoes on the other.
As stated above, I'm not proposing a counter argument that presupposes no God. That argument would be just as flawed in exactly the same way as you point out.
hoghead1 wrote: Anyhow, what Craig is trying to do is to avoid an infinite regress that he and others find undesirable.
Of course it's undesirable. It blows apart the entire argument. Sneaking in a presupposition to 'fix it' just puts the conclusion in the first premise and renders the entire argument pointless.

You can't use word play to poof a God into existence. Or pink unicorns, pixies, or any other imagined thing that you might want to presuppose before the argument even starts.
hoghead1 wrote: Of course, you can always argue that not all forms of infinite regress are undesirable, that at some point, everyone admits to some sort of infinite regress. But OK, some may be more acceptable, some less desirable, and he finds an infinite regress of causes to be one of the latter. The problem I as a theist have with him is that he fails to show why avoiding the regress would yield anything near a picture of God I might find desirable. Just saying God is the first cause and leaving it go at that says nothing about the nature of God. All his argument says is that there is a first cause. OK, but what is it like? Maybe it, i.e., God, is just a collection of abstract, impersonal principles, cold, aloof, depersonalizing. All he has argued for is some sort of characterless, patternless transcendental source. So, on my end of it, he really demonstrated anything. If he is presupposing some sort of God, at least a God available for religious purposes, he sure doesn't get it to come out at the end.
The point is that whatever you load into the premises, will carry to the end.

If he wants to presuppose that the only uncreated thing that starts everything off is God, then he has to show how he came to this conclusion. Furthermore, why bother? Why not just say the universe is the first uncreated thing that has always existed? Why load on an extra creature that has no cause? Doing so immediately points to the glaring flaw in the argument.

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #12

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 2 by benchwarmer]
benchwarmer wrote:
As usual (and as you point out) it all comes down to definitions. I would like to zone in on just one for now. What does 'exist' mean in the context of P1?

Does it mean:

1) when one things transforms into something new that new thing now exists?

OR

2) something came out of nothing and now exists?

Right.. when do things begin?

I suppose we decide when things begin depending on the context. But of course, when it comes to the whole universe.. the context is "everything", I suppose. And of course, that "everything" doesn't seem to have a god in it.. The god has to be OUTSIDE of "everything ... it doesn't take long with this argument to get me feeling giddy.
benchwarmer wrote:
Further to this, if we say 'begin to exist' that implies time. If there was originally nothing, that means there was no time, so how does something begin when there is no time?
I've heard Craig use phrases like "in time" and "out of time"... whatever that's supposed to mean. To Craig, and don't quote me on this.. but I think I heard him say in a debate, that God exists timelessly.. ( as all good super-duper creator of the universe gods do ) and then pops into time to create the universe, and then pops back to him timeless state. You know... gods can do that kind of thing.

What would we do without Craig, eh?

benchwarmer wrote:
I think the really important question though is do you use superman shampoo?
I know, right?

Such a small sentence, really.. and so many QUESTIONS !!!

Im not a fan of superman.. Spidey is a little bit sarcastic..
Not as much as Deadpool, but still... I like sarcasm.

( and Superman soap is Tutti Frity, and I don't like the Tutti of the Fruty.

In any case, I'm quite sure that some clever theist will explain all of that for us ... not believers.



:)
Last edited by Blastcat on Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hoghead1
Guru
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #13

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 11 by benchwarmer]

Well, modern science is pretty much in agreement that the present universe had a definite beginning. That does not rule out, however, that there could have been a universe before and that there will be one after ours. But the present universe did have a definite beginning to it.

Craig's model of God, in which the concept of a beginning is inapplicable to God, has been challenged by neo-classical theists, such as myself, on the grounds it is a lopsided concept of Hellenic perfection, which unduly enshrines the immune and the immutable, and arbitrarily excludes dynamic, contingent aspects of God that also represent perfections. Concepts such as God and self do not refer to static entities. They refer to a society of perishing occasions. Moment to moment, we are new selves. No thinker thinks twice. Moment to moment, God reinvents himself or herself, just as we do. No God "gods" twice.

hoghead1
Guru
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #14

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to Blastcat]

That may well be how Craig thinks of God and time. But it is not at all the way we neo-classical theists understand the matter, as I just noticed in a previous post.

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #15

Post by Blastcat »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Blastcat]
Right off the bat, I would have my skeptical spidey sense tingling by the sentence itself. It seems to imply that some things begin to exist, and that others may not begin to exist.
Exactly. It's the hidden extra sentence in that premise that ultimately is a mask for the conclusion that the theist hopes to achieve, which I've been told you're not supposed to do!

-What begins to exist has a cause.
-Okay...so things that don't begin to exist don't have causes, right?
-Yeah!
-So give me an example of something that doesn't begin to exist
-Only one thing and one thing only. God.

So from where I'm standing, the conclusion that they reach (that God is an uncaused cause) is right there in Premise 1, and thus it's an invalid logical argument.
Wow, if you put it THAT way...

But really... Craig can't be THAT dumb, can he?

Don't answer that.. it's rhetorical.
I'm sure that ... it all makes sense.

And therefore, God.

:)

hoghead1
Guru
Posts: 2011
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #16

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 15 by Blastcat]

While you ridicule Craig for appearing dumb, maybe you should look to yourself a bit here. The traditional definition of God is that God is eternal. Now, if you wish to fault his argument, you need to show her your case why you feel eternality is not a supreme perfection. So where is it? Also, you need to do a better job of addressing the immutability and immunity of God. Sending me private emails, as you just did on the topic, with remarks, such as "What drugs on you on? I want some o dat" sends a very loud message that you have no real comprehension of the issues involved in the logic of divine perfection and are just trying to waste time by being somewhat silly.

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #17

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 14 by hoghead1]




[center]Classical theism vs. Neo-classical theim:
Part One[/center]


hoghead1 wrote:
That may well be how Craig thinks of God and time. But it is not at all the way we neo-classical theists understand the matter, as I just noticed in a previous post.
Could you be so kind as to explain what these terms mean?

1. Classical theism.
2. Neo-classical theism.

Thank you.
I have no idea what you mean by those.


:)

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #18

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 16 by hoghead1]
hoghead1 wrote:
While you ridicule Craig for appearing dumb, maybe you should look to yourself a bit here.

I'm always willing to do that, friend !!

But let's be a bit more precise, because, sometimes, in humor, language is used vaguely. I can see that this wont work with you... no humor, no ridicule, no wit, no lighthearted banter. I was replying to someone I agree with... Now, for an OPPONENT, I am going to be much more careful.

You may want to watch for that.

_____________

FOR THE RECORD:

By writing "Craig can't be that dumb, can he?", I was making a rhetorical question...

I was suggesting that Craig can't be so dumb.
I don't consider Craig to be dumb. I consider him to have made a very poor argument for the existence of God.

_____________

hoghead1 wrote:
The traditional definition of God is that God is eternal.

How about we stick to assertions that we can really back up:

How about you say something like this: "I believe that God is eternal".
I don't think anyone would challenge you if you state what you happen to believe in.. but when you make a sweeping generality, you would be challenged.

At least, by Blastcat.

hoghead1 wrote:
Now, if you wish to fault his argument, you need to show her your case why you feel eternality is not a supreme perfection.
I'm not going to debate why you believe that "eternality is not a supreme perfection".
You can go ahead and believe that. That's fine with me.

But right now, I don't see how a "supreme perfection" has anything to do with the first premise, because you didn't explain how it might.

hoghead1 wrote:
So where is it?
Sorry, where is what?

hoghead1 wrote:
Also, you need to do a better job of addressing the immutability and immunity of God.
A better job than what?

I didn't DO any kind of job of addressing those concepts.
I have no idea what you mean by those terms.

However, ff you feel those terms are important to discuss in the context of the first premise of the Kalam, I'd be most interested in what you have to say about them.

hoghead1 wrote:
Sending me private emails, as you just did on the topic, with remarks, such as "What drugs on you on? I want some o dat" sends a very loud message that you have no real comprehension of the issues involved in the logic of divine perfection and are just trying to waste time by being somewhat silly.
Ok, well, I don't know everything.
If you can teach me something, I gain.

As to my joke: A silly joke is quite meant to be silly.
I'm sorry my joke didn't work as intended.

I apologize... no harm meant, my silly joke seems to have backfired.

______________

FOR THE RECORD:

I've noted and completely accept that you consider humor a waste of time.
______________

What I MEANT by the joke is that I had NO idea whatsoever what "which unduly enshrines the immune and the immutable" meant... which was the topic of the comment. IMMUNE and the IMMUTALBLE?

I still dont have a clue.
I THINK it's a typo, but I can't tell... instead of explaining what you meant, you got stuck on your being offended. I didn't intend to offend, but amuse and ASK a question... I guess I didn't word it seriously enough.

But I'd still LOVE to know what that phrase means.



:)

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #19

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 4 by hoghead1]





[center]
Classical theism vs. Neo-classical theim:
Part Three: St. Anselm’s Circularity[/center]

hoghead1 wrote:
There are, however, two points you need to bear in mind here. One is that the argument for God as first cause is striving to avoid an infinite regress, whereby you would have to inquire into what caused God, then what causes the cause that caused God, and so on, ad infinitum.

Yes, that's an ironic part of Craig's argument.
He wants to RESOLVE an infinity by appealing to another one.

hoghead1 wrote:
The other is that the argument presupposes the classical model of God, whereby God is defined as a statically complete perfection, an actus purus, or the actualization of all perfection, wholly immutable and independent.
Could you find a reference from Craig about that?

hoghead1 wrote:
Given those two premises, the Kalaam argument does work.
Perhaps you mean: "Given the PROOF of those two premises".
You might have to elaborate on why you think the argument works, and why we should accept your two premises.

So far, you have given us your opinions, and beliefs.

hoghead1 wrote:
However, there are other models of God, a neo-classical model, for example. But I won't go into that now, as it might get the discussion too far off the OP.
Could you cite a reference on the kind of God Craig is actually talking about?
It would be nice INDEED if he spells it out for us.... Right?

____________

Questions:

  • 1. How does appealing to one kind of infinity resolve a problem with infinities?
    2. On his website, Craig writes: "On the theistic view objective moral values are grounded in God. As St. Anselm saw, God is by definition the greatest conceivable being and therefore the highest Good. Indeed, He is not merely perfectly good; He is the locus and paradigm of moral value."

    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defining ... z4PurAOrSU

    To me, Craig is accepting reasoning that is circular. Craig accepts the premise that "God is the greatest conceivable being", and concludes that " God wouldn't be so great if he didn't exist, so therefore, must."
    My question is : "Why should outsiders to his faith take any definition for "God" for granted? Because he happens to HAVE it?
    3. Don't people have to at least TRY to prove that their beliefs are TRUE?
    4. Oh, and it would be very nice if you defined for us what you MEAN by "Classical and Neo-classical" theism.
    5. I do believe that in your reply, you didn't address the CIRCULARITY found in the first premise that rikuoamero was talking about. Could you elaborate on that for us now?
____________



:smileright:

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Kalam Cosmological Argument, Premise One

Post #20

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 5 by Goat]
Goat wrote:
There is something known as 'virtual particles' which apparently have no cause. THey can 'come into existence' .. and actually keep an existence if formed hear the event horizion of a black hole... so 1 is an assumption that can not be shown to be true.
I try to keep up with certain aspect of quantum physics, but causality... is NOT one of them. I have heard it said many times that certain kinds of subatomic particles seem to "Pop in and out of existence"... seemingly, without a direct cause.

If that is true, then Craig's premise is simply not true of the physical universe.
At least, NOT on that "quantum level".

Whenever I try to understand QM... i mostly get it wrong.. When I want to know what is true, I like to know my limits .. and QM sure seems to be beyond my capacity.

But you raise a very interesting point.
Craig's assertion about causality might be in FACT, quite wrong.



:)

Post Reply