Hell

Grayson · Post by **Grayson** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:14 pm

It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

SeekingTheTruth · Post by **SeekingTheTruth** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:24 pm

That's funny. I have found quite a few obvious contradictions.

Because I don't feel like typing them all up, here is a cursory list:

I will tell you the answers for those ''contradictions''.

Man was created equal, male and female. Gen.1:27.
Woman was created as a companion to the man only after he rejected the animals. Gen.2:18-24.

I don't see where it says Man and woman was created equal. It says that
Genesis 1:27 ''And God created man in his image, in the image of G-d He created him; male and female He created them.''
G-d created everything besides man and female with words. He said let there be light and so it was.; But with man and woman G-d created them with His hands.
Woman was created after Adam saw all the other creatures before him. He told G-d that they all have mates, What about me?

This is taking to long. Take The Torah with Rashi's commentary and go question to question. Then if you have a problem ask me.

The Persnickety Platypus · Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:24 pm

This is taking to long. Take The Torah with Rashi's commentary and go question to question. Then if you have a problem ask me.

I have no problems. The Bible is clearly contradictory, and cannot be the inspired word of God.

I don't need some Rabbi to give me a clever spin on obvious inconsistancies in the text. I can read plain English just fine.

Was Jehoiakin eight or eighteen years old when he began to reign? Which book do I believe, 2 Kings or 2 Chronicles?

I don't see where it says Man and woman was created equal.

Exactly. The Bible is sexist.

I cannot follow such a biggoted diety.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:26 pm

I wonder if Adam tried all the other animals first? You are forgetting Lilith.
It isn't the first story(myth) about man's creation. There are hints like Eve being the "mother of all living". The two sons are obviously Anu's two sons. In the Hebrew scriptures there is not much about hell. I figure they saw this life as having enough problems. You just sleep with the fathers.
In the Hebrew scripture you will not find much about faith, it is more faithfulness not belief, unbelief or disbelief.

Joe Blackbird · Post by **Joe Blackbird** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:52 pm

Grayson wrote:It has been said to me that God gives people faith to believe in Him.

Fine.

But if that is the case, how can one justify God sending people to Hell for not believing in Him if He only gives certain people the faith to believe in Him? Because it is His will? Then why Create people in the first place if only to send them to Hell?

Anyone?

Hi Grayson. Good post.

The concept of 'Hell' as a domain was borrowed by early Christians from Zoroastrianism and Greek Mythology to frighten people into enlisting into their religion. The Greek word Jesus most often used for 'Hell' was 'Gehenna' (The Valley of Hinnom), which was an actual valley outside of Jerusalem where garbage was burned in Jesus' day. You can actually go to Hell; and I've heard it's basically a grassy valley now with a few shade trees (As far as I know, they no longer burn garbage there).

Again, your questions are prime examples of the type of reasoning that scares people away from Christianity- this whole, "Only the chosen ones will be saved" line of thinking. While I do believe in a Creator, the vindictive side of the God of the Bible is pretty difficult for me to comprehend. For example; I have a really hard time with the story of Job. Satan goes to God for permission to destroy an innocent man's family- and God (the same God the New Testament defines as 'Love') essentially says, go right ahead Satan- kill this man's children. Where is the 'Love' in that?

As for 'Then why create people in the first place only to send them to Hell?'- all I can say is this; there is no proof that a 'Hell' exists (In the sense of a domain where people are tormented for all eternity). If you want to better understand the etymology of the word 'Hell' or where the concept comes from, I suggest researching religions that were contemporary to (or came just before) Christianity. Christianity did not come into existence in a bubble. Judaism has no real concept of 'Hell' (In the KJV, the English word 'Hell' is used to represent the Hebrew word 'Sheol'- which is not a place of torment, but a place of rest) so, it is extremely unlikely that Christianity borrowed the concept of Hell from anything in Judaism.

In addition to the two religions I mentioned above- try looking into Mithraism for some startling similarities to Christian doctrines and rituals. I hope these suggestions are helpful. Best wishes on finding solid answers to your inquiries.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:34 am

Joe Blackbird wrote:The concept of 'Hell' as a domain was borrowed by early Christians from Zoroastrianism and Greek Mythology to frighten people into enlisting into their religion. ...
While I do believe in a Creator, the vindictive side of the God of the Bible is pretty difficult for me to comprehend. ...
[T]here is no proof that a 'Hell' exists (In the sense of a domain where people are tormented for all eternity). ... Judaism has no real concept of 'Hell' ... so, it is extremely unlikely that Christianity borrowed the concept of Hell from anything in Judaism. ...

If it is as you say, then why do many Christians hang on to the dogma of a literal hell so strongly.

Why would caring thinking reasonable people hold to such a doctrine if there was some way out? Hell is a loathsome teaching. As I have pointed out before, God is not logically forced into punishing sinners with eternal torment. So by holding to the doctrine of eternal punishment, they hold their God up to ridicule and scorn. I cannot see why good hearted reasonable people would do such a thing, if there was a viable alternative. So I am lead to one of only two possibilities:

The Christian Holy Writings teach that there is eternal torment for those who reject God OR
Christians are a mean vindictive nasty lot.

Based on personal experience, I have to rule out option 2. Most Christians that I have met have seemed to be genuinely quite caring individuals.
Did I miss an option?

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:48 am

Fear and depression is the usual lot for authentic bible believes.
It is to keep them from looking to deeply into what their bible says.

Joe Blackbird · Post by **Joe Blackbird** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:27 pm

McCulloch wrote: If it is as you say, then why do many Christians hang on to the dogma of a literal hell so strongly?

Thanks for your comments McCulloch.

I would say that the dogma of a literal Hell is held on to by many Christians for two reasons;

#1-Hell is an EXTREMELY effective missionary tool.

#2-Hell is an integral part of what keeps Christians from LEAVING Christianity.

Like you, I am equally surprised to find otherwise very kind, forgiving Christians who believe that their own God can be less forgiving than they are required by their own religion to be.

Hell is perhaps the cruelest doctrine ever devised. It is IMPOSSIBLE to attribute it's existence to the will of a loving God. No parent could torture their own children for all eternity for making bad choices- that is SICK. Besides, it contradicts other things that Jesus was quoted in the Bible as saying, for example:

Luk 6:35-38 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."

To me, this quite explicitly states that God's mercy is reciprocal. The punishment of Hell is actually far more brutal than anything a finite human being can actually do even in a lifetime of sin. The punishment must fit the crime- it cannot be greater than the crime.

Mat 7:9-11 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Again, this is calling for people to think of God as a parental figure, a concept often used throughout the Gospels. I understand this to mean that God is even more merciful than his followers- who, at their worst, would not torture people for all eternity.

The differences in tone and content between Bible passages like these and passages that talk about Hell, condemnation, judgement, and torture lead me to believe that much of what has been written in the name of God was really written to serve the purposes of a particular faith-community.

If Jesus ever really made a reference to a 'Hell' (Gehenna), I believe he was making a hyperbolic reference to the Valley of Hinnom as a kind of garbage dump or wasteland where, indeed, "the worm does not wither and the fire cannot be quenched", because that is actually a very accurate description of the smoldering, rotting garbage heap that existed outside the walls of Jerusalem during his lifetime. His original audience would have understood that. Removed from it's original context, others have expanded a poetic exaggeration into a literal underground torture chamber where Satan tortures non-Christians forever (patterned after the Greek concept of 'Hades'; the name of both the underworld of the dead and it's 'ruler').

We should also keep in mind that Jesus was quoted in Matthew as having told people to cut off parts of their body if they lead one into temptation- why doesn't anyone take those comments literally?

Mat 5:29-30 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

I don't know of any Christians who require self-mutilation as a pre-requisite for salvation- but if we want to wax literal, perhaps this should be examined as well.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:02 pm

Joe Blackbird wrote:I don't know of any Christians who require self-mutilation as a pre-requisite for salvation- but if we want to wax literal, perhaps this should be examined as well.

There used to be but a form of Darwinism eliminated them. It was very hard to either live long enough to have children or attract converts.

Joe Blackbird · Post by **Joe Blackbird** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:00 pm

McCulloch wrote:
Joe Blackbird wrote:I don't know of any Christians who require self-mutilation as a pre-requisite for salvation- but if we want to wax literal, perhaps this should be examined as well.
There used to be but a form of Darwinism eliminated them. It was very hard to either live long enough to have children or attract converts.

That is extremely dis-heartening- but I guess one could postulate that it is the logical extention of an extremely literal stance on the Bible. It is a shame that the people who supposedly practiced this were so blinded by their own zeal that they were willing to destroy their own bodies, but people who have such dangerous beliefs are probably serving society better no longer being part of it. We need a lot more love in this world and a whole lot less fanatacism.

Jenchol · Post by **Jenchol** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:03 am

SeekingTheTruth wrote:Hell's only purope is to purify your soul. Sort of like a carwash for your soul.
Most people even Great people usually go to Hell for a short period. It purifies you so you can enter Heaven which is absolutely pure.

i always was taught hell was for eternity?

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