The Bible is not the word of God

[DrProctopus]

A bunch of people who believed that God was talking to them wrote down what they believed God was saying.

The more relevant or successful scriptures were kept and eventually composed into the OT.

Something similar happend after Jesus did his thing, and the NT was produced.


Nowhere in this process do I see any reason to believe that every single word in the Bible is the word of God. Why should I believe someone when they claim to speak for God?

So, the point of debate is this:

Is there actually any decent reason to believe that the Bible is 100% the word of God?

[Cathar1950]

DrProctopus wrote:

I don't see the point of your post Nick?

Yeah Nick, you just rubbing it in their face or what?
DrProctopus wrote:

Is there anyone here who believes the Bible is infallible?

How would we know "infallible"?
Anyone with any familiarity with the history and development of the bible
would have to be pretty brainwashed to think that because it is meaningless.
Now if they said it is our tradition. I could buy that.

[Joe Blackbird]

Is there actually any decent reason to believe that the Bible is 100% the word of God?

If by 'decent reason', you mean external evidence, then I would have to say no.

Certain portions of the Bible indicate when God is supposed to be dictating a prophecy, commandment, etc.- usually preceded by the expression- 'Thus saith the Lord...'. But the idea that the Bible is 100% the word of God probably comes from the following passage;

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is BREATHED OUT by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

...but let's look at this passage in context.

The Bible was completed in stages, book by book, over a very long period (some claim about 1500 years or more) by a variety of different authors. These authors would have had absolutely no exposure to a Bible that matches the contents of our modern version exactly. The earliest Christians used a translation of the Hebrew Bible called the Septuagint (as is evident in the Old Testament quotes used in Luke and Acts for example).

When the Septuagint (LXX) was translated into Greek before the time of Jesus, there were more books (the Apocrypha/Deuterocanon) as well as minor variations to what the Hebrew version of Scripture read. In other words; the form and content of 'Scripture' had not yet been agreed upon so as to compile an official list or 'canon'.

It's important to remember that, if one is to believe that Timothy was making a reference to Christian Scripture as we know it today, than the 'whole' Bible (Old and New Testaments) would have been collected and canonized by the time he supposedly wrote this letter. On the contrary; the 'whole' Bible (Old and New Testament) was still being disputed several hundred years after Timothy's death. (see- Marcion of Sinope: c. 150, Irenaeus of Lyons: c. 185, Codex Claromontanus canon c. 250, Eusebius: c. 300, Cheltenham Canon c. 350, Synod of Laodicea: c. 363, Athanasius: in 367- for examples of proposed canons throughout early Christian History).

The authority of the Bible as 'God's infallible word' rests entirely on the convictions of those who hold that view, and on the men (and possibly women) who determined what books could be considered 'canon' hundreds of year after the books were completed. Had they opted to NOT include 2 Timothy, we would probably not be debating this topic right now.

[SeekingTheTruth]

Hi,
This is the first time I am involved in a forum. I am Jewish and was taught Jewish beliefs throughout my childhood. I am fascinating about other religions, Christianity included, and is seeking into them to find the TRUE RELIGIOn, which I hope i can find.
-The bible i recognize now is the Jewish bible, The Old Testament, until I am proved otherwise.
It is believed that it is perfect, and nothing can be added or subtracted (Deuteronomy 13:1)(so I don't understand how the New Testament can be created) (answer if you can).
-Anyway, back to the subject, There are many proofs of how we know the Old Testament is G-d's word. One of them is the mere fact that it states numerous times that the all the Israelites of the generation of receiving the Ten Commandments were present, approx. 13 million. If this was not true and the event which can prove G-d gave us the Old testament is false then the first generation of that time would not accept the new, unique, and very hard religion.
-Second, Torah Codes. I can't validate codes on the New Testament because I didn't look into it but codes in the Old Testament, the Torah, SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. For it to work out everything has to perfect and it is.

[1John2_26]

i think that you must take into consideration that the bilble is ALSO full of dreadful stories about genocide, murder, adultery, incest, deceit, greed, arrogance, megalomania, sexual perversion, and all sorts of despicable behavior. How can such a book be "God's word", since God is supposed to be GOOD, and His "words" are supposed to be about heavenly good and beautiful things, right !!?

Can anyone not agree that this person's post is absoulutely correct?

The Bible is far to perfect for mere humanity to have been it's basis. Otherwise it would not include . . .

"dreadful stories about genocide, murder, adultery, incest, deceit, greed, arrogance, megalomania, sexual perversion, and all sorts of despicable behavior."

It would just include the lovey-dovey.[/code]

[Lotan]

It would just include the lovey-dovey.

That's a novel apologetic; the Bible must be the word of god 'cause it doesn't read like a Teletubbies episode. The Qu'ran must be the word of god too, then.

[DrProctopus]

The Bible is far to perfect for mere humanity to have been it's basis. Otherwise it would not include . . .

So then, you assume a human could not have written such a book. Can you offer any evidence that this is so? The Bible is unique, but that does not mean it is 100% divinely inspired. The Bible teaches a psychotic belief system, this tends to weigh in favor of it being the imagination of people who lived in harsh times.

The bible i recognize now is the Jewish bible, The Old Testament, until I am proved otherwise.

And therein lies the problem. The only honest starting point is to say "I don't know" - anything else involves self deception. You say the OT is true until proven otherwise - but any belief system can be rationalized, and thus there is no way to absolutely prove it false. This is true of all religions, atheism, materialism, and deism.

It is believed that it is perfect, and nothing can be added or subtracted (Deuteronomy 13:1)(

But Deuteronomy could be false. We must be careful to avoid circular reasoning.

One of them is the mere fact that it states numerous times that the all the Israelites of the generation of receiving the Ten Commandments were present, approx. 13 million. If this was not true and the event which can prove G-d gave us the Old testament is false then the first generation of that time would not accept the new, unique, and very hard religion.

You are mistaken. History shows us that people are quite willing to accept very hard religions. Look at how successful Mohammed was at converting people, and the religion he created is very hard indeed.

Second, Torah Codes. I can't validate codes on the New Testament because I didn't look into it but codes in the Old Testament, the Torah, SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. For it to work out everything has to perfect and it is.

I am assuming this is similar to Bible codes - I'm sorry, but his has been disproven so thoroughly that I am amazed anyone still believes it. If you take any book, and jumble around the words enough, you will find all sorts of patterns. I am not just claiming this, it has been tested and proven quite convincingly.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is BREATHED OUT by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

There are two flaws with this (building on Joe's points):
1) Timothy could be wrong. He could be saying what he believes, not something inspired by God.
2) By definition, scripture is information that has been inspired by God. There is no way to establish that everything written by a prophet is inspired by God, and no way to establish that everything included in the Bible is legitimate scripture. Timothy does not say which things should be considered scripture.

[ENIGMA]

i think that you must take into consideration that the bilble is ALSO full of dreadful stories about genocide, murder, adultery, incest, deceit, greed, arrogance, megalomania, sexual perversion, and all sorts of despicable behavior. How can such a book be "God's word", since God is supposed to be GOOD, and His "words" are supposed to be about heavenly good and beautiful things, right !!?

Can anyone not agree that this person's post is absoulutely correct?

The Bible is far to perfect for mere humanity to have been it's basis. Otherwise it would not include . . .

"dreadful stories about genocide, murder, adultery, incest, deceit, greed, arrogance, megalomania, sexual perversion, and all sorts of despicable behavior."

It would just include the lovey-dovey.

So I take it that you believe that the Dune series is religiously inspired?

[Nick Hallandale]

I don't see the point of your post Nick?

You have eyes but cannot see.
The Almighty must have blinded your eyes so you cannot see.
Perhaps if you had the faith of a mustard seed you could move mountains.

[Cathar1950]

The bible i recognize now is the Jewish bible, The Old Testament, until I am proved otherwise.

Then why do you call it the "Old" Testament? Shouldn't you call it the Hebrew scriptures or something like that?
Most scholars agree that Deuteronomy was written under Josiah in the 7th Century BCE and later edited during the exile and then after during Ezra's time.

It is believed that it is perfect, and nothing can be added or subtracted (Deuteronomy 13:1)(

This must have been a later addition or they broke their own rules.

[QED]

Nowhere in this process do I see any reason to believe that every single word in the Bible is the word of God. Why should I believe someone when they claim to speak for God?

So, the point of debate is this:

Is there actually any decent reason to believe that the Bible is 100% the word of God?

This sounds like the wrong question to ask to me. Suppose we were to ask if 100% of all crop circles were made by aliens. People have been spotted out at night making circles with ropes and planks, so we know for sure that it doesn't need an alien to do it. But then the believers say "aha! only some circles are made by men, the rest are of alien origin". Before we can come to this as a reasonable conclusion we have to show that a particular circle could not have been created by men -- particularly in the light of the fact that we know so many can.

So perhaps it should be asked if there is any decent reason to ask if any of the bible is the word of God.