Fundamental christianity, is it narcissistic?

[bernee51]

In another thread the following exhange took place:

Me: You live a blinkered existence, blinded by your own perspective and a sociocentic, narcisstic religion.

Al: Narcissism? I'm am not a homosexual.

Me: Do you understand what is actually meant by narcissism? And why do you assocaiate it with homosexuality?

Al: You do know the story don't you? It is the reflection of the human body that should provide the empiricism necessary to accurately describe sex acts, the what and where.

But is that what it means. The 'story' of Narcissis is well known - the beautiful youth who fell in love with his own reflection and so on. But what does the myth mean and how does it relate to religion.

(Please note, the following discussion reflects on belief systems and does not indicate or mean to imply pathologies of any sort amongst the followers of these religions.)

In psychology narcissism (and borderline pathologies) indicate a problem with realistic emotional boundaries to the self. The individual lacks a sense of cohesive self. The self either treats the world as an extension of itself (narcissistic), or is constantly invaded and tortured by the world (borderline).

So let's look at fundamental religious belief. Any parallels? I have been told often enough by believers that if I do not embrace the teachings of Jesus I am bound for hell. The world at large, in fact, is really (or is believed should be) an extension of the dogma of the proscribed religiosity.

Or, as we have seen in other threads, there can arise amongst those who have these beliefs a definite feeling that the world is out to get their religion. That forces are gathering to bring them down - their beliefs are being invaded and tortured by, for example, 'hate speech' legislation.

Narcissism can be summed up in the statement "My country right or wrong" (of course you can subsitiute any belief system you like in place of the word country)

Fundamental religious beliefs are clearly sociocentric (the social equivalent of egocentrism). The world is seen from only one perspective. Development out of these mindsets can be defined as a successive decrease in sociocentrism. It is the development of an apersptectival, truly pluralist worldview.

Fundamental religion does not offer that as an option. It is definitely a case of - my religion, right or wrong, take it or leave it. And, by the way, if you leave it you are doomed.

[bernee51]

Not at all - as demonstrated above. To the exclusion of all others 'Jesus' {cf. the self} is right.

Pure narcissism.

Obviously (and I'm surprised) you have never read the Gospels.

In your opinion He may be egomaniacal or insane, but certainly not in love with Himself.

Did you notice 'Jesus' was in inverted commas. I was using Jesus as a metaphor. I was speaking of the belief systems held by those that 'Jeus' is the only way to salvation and all else is hell bound.

I was not speaking of the 'person' of Jesus.

I will say it again. I am talking of religious fundamentalism.

Not an individual.

[Lainey]

I;m sure there are narcissist isn al belief systems.

The point of my post is that fundamentalism (regardless of the belief system) is narcissistic. It is self-obsessed to the point where it allows no other belief system to be valid. Moreso, any thay do not agree are doomed. Additionally fundamental belief systems hold that they are under attack from 'hostile forces'. This is true of fundamental christianity and it is true of fundamental islam.

Fundamentalism is a pathology of cultural and/or spiritual development just as narcissism is a pathology of human development.

You're right, there are probably narcissists in all belief systems. Two of my close friends are mostly Christians, so that's the belief system that I most often encounter. I have trouble understanding the "my way or the highway" mentality, and it irks me.

I see what you mean about the belief that they are under attack from "hostile forces." As far as Islam goes, that's how they get the people worked up over "jihad." We're the "enemy" they portray to the believers. In Canada, it often takes the much milder form of letters to the editor that complain of how our "Christian nation" founded on "Judeo-Christian" principles is under attack. Or in a discussion with my friend, I'll mention how certain segments of society (such as scientists) don't agree with her view of the world (Creationism), and she'll respond with something like, "Well, the Bible says Christians will be persecuted." I'm not sure how that scientific theories versus beliefs relates to persecution, but I think it shows how fundamentalist beliefs equate dissent with hostility.

[melikio]

I have trouble understanding the "my way or the highway" mentality, and it irks me.

It bothered me too, even long before I realized that it wasn't really the way to be as a "Christian".

One thing that is interesting to me, is how many "Christians" believe that the radically-in-your-face approach, is THE Jesus' approach (especially where homosexual people are concerned). I really do not understand how so many can take the 1Cor13 kind of "love", and roll it into the ENFORCINATOR/RAMBO type of thing I've seen from so many self-appointed Christian-commandos. (Arrrghhh!!)

Then, some Christians get upset, when the table TURN, and they become the ENFORCINATED and RAMBOED. Even so, it is VERY CLEAR, that some human beings LOVE TO FIGHT, and many of those people become "Christians". They have NOT really gotten control of their need to BULLY others. Certainly this is NOT ALL Christians.

The narcissism amongst certain religious people makes itself evident, when they adopt that attitude that NO OTHER HUMAN BEING is allowed to think/exist outside of the lines/BOXES they draw or erect. This is ONE MASSIVE PROBLEM with a philosophy/religion, that gives HUMAN BEINGS no wiggle room. Jesus gave people tremendous freedom in the things He expressed, but I don't see much of Jesus in the WAY of the loudest and self-proclaimed "holy" followers.

I have looked for it (Christ-like love and compassion) ALL OF MY LIFE. Why? Because I have been aware of my homosexual-orientation, and how it sets in this reality. I silently and patiently waited for many things (to include being CHANGED/FIXED). In the interim, I thought I would be the best "Christian" I could be; I soon realized that perfection wasn't going to happen, as long as I lived here on earth. Even so, I looked to see who those were that put out a reasonable effort to LOVE OTHERS, because I knew that was what Jesus did to actually reach mankind. When that was taught in all the relgion and Bible classes I ever attended, my heart just said: "Amen".

Unfortunately, there are narcissistic human beings, who also happen to be "religious" (and of course, secular narcissists are out here too). I've encoutered them, and I've suffered at their hands...many times (often in silence and humility). I learned a LONG time ago, not to fight every person who WANTS a fight...it just FEEDS their ego. And in the case of some unloving people who believe THEIR RELIGION is THE THING TO PRACTICE, it just feeds their BAD religion.

I took it seriously, when life and the Bible showed me that people are certainly EQUAL (despite what our emotions might tell us). I KNOW I'm not better than anyone else, and the Bible supports that view. I respect the reality that not everyone can or will believe the things I do. But I let what Jesus called GOOD religion affect my own life, and share those good thing with others, in the best way/s I am capable of.

I don't see ANY VALUE, in coming out here into the world, ACTING like "God" (or what we think God is like). Way too many creeps and arrogant-meanies have HURT people (and not cared about it) over the centuries. It is so strange and peculiar to me, that people can literally freak out about two guys kissing at "Disney World", and relatively little is said about people like Fred Phelps, picketing the FUNERALS of gay people. (LOL! And shame on those who claim to "love".) That is like "glaze" upon the hypocrisy that clearly exists in this society.

I don't call homosexuality "good", but I'm not going to let someone who barely understands homosexual people, beat them up with the Bible...ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE LIKELY NO BETTER. People PROVE their love, by expressing it. DO NOT tell me you love me, then show me otherwise; that is a MIXED SIGNAL, that I and no one else in the world can understand (or tolerate indefinitely).

-Mel-

[melikio]

Narcissism? I'm am not a homosexual.

Now that, is just plain funny.

Was that lifted from "Will and Grace"?

-Mel-

[bernee51]

Narcissism? I'm am not a homosexual.

Now that, is just plain funny.

Was that lifted from "Will and Grace"?

-Mel-

It is truly amazing how much can be said with so few words.

[trencacloscas]

melikio wrote:
Quote:
Narcissism? I'm am not a homosexual.

Now that, is just plain funny.

Was that lifted from "Will and Grace"?

I just can't believe it!!!! This ought to come from a sitcom!!!! Something Ellen DeGeneres or Fraser has missed in some script. The forum gets funnier and funnier every day...

Pure selfish gratification

Some of the best things in life are pure selfish gratification. Since I regard Christianity as sheer hatred for life, this doesn't surprise me one bit.

[AlAyeti]

AlAyeti wrote:
Quote:
Not at all - as demonstrated above. To the exclusion of all others 'Jesus' {cf. the self} is right.

Pure narcissism.

Obviously (and I'm surprised) you have never read the Gospels.

In your opinion He may be egomaniacal or insane, but certainly not in love with Himself.

Did you notice 'Jesus' was in inverted commas. I was using Jesus as a metaphor. I was speaking of the belief systems held by those that 'Jeus' is the only way to salvation and all else is hell bound.

I was not speaking of the 'person' of Jesus.

What is noticed is the unrelenting denigration of Chritianity. The intolerance for people that lead such peaceful and exemplary lives, and the pigeon holing of a belief system that above all else is to be silenced.

Yet, when the truth of the atheist beliefs system and its cause and effect on the history of mankind is presented in all of its glorius facts, the Christian endures epithets from those that hurl them with ease.

I will say it again. I am talking of religious fundamentalism.

Not an individual.

And I will again repeat that this statement is not accurate. There is no real reason to hide the hatred inherent in the anti-Christian position. It is simply there for all too see.

[AlAyeti]

Why is the incredible insult of Christians by trencacloscas allowed to
remain on this website?

Some of the best things in life are pure selfish gratification. Since I regard Christianity as sheer hatred for life, this doesn't surprise me one bit.

In todays world, Christian Missionaries are murdered in reality. Imprisoned in reality. "Christian" Doctors and Nurses (though doing no converting) shot in their own clinics. Even the beginning of Christianity could not escape the same vile opinion and actions we can see leveled on this website..

Christians are not even allowed the peace of history. Now, everything Christian is vilified and challenged by revisionism, redefining and legislation. As has been presented even by the anti-Christian presentation.

Wikipedia cannot even contain the history that has been allowed to dwell in writings for hundreds of years with caveat after caveat.

Roman persecutions in Non-Biblical Sources
Aside from the occasional lynching, the first organized, state-supported persecution of Christians is the one initiated by Nero in 64 AD, in a search for scapegoats after the Great Fire of Rome. Though posited by many, the "persecution" of Nero is considered by some to be an anachronism. The only reference we have comes from the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus in his annals. The text refers to the subjects of the persecution as "Christians" though not even Paul or the Earliest Church fathers refer to themselves by this name. [Correction: the book of Acts, written by an assistant to Paul, notes the use of the term in Syria before 50 a.d. (Acts 11:26). 1 Peter 4:16 also uses the term in a letter to Asia Minor.] The text in question is:

Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures on a group of persons already hated for their crimes. This was the sect known as Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator, Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again and spread, not merely through Judea, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth. Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race.


-- Book 15, Chapter 44
It is highly unlikely that such hatred of an obscure sect could have developed so rapidly. It is even more unlikely when you consider the fact that this obscure sect did not have a distinctive name for itself and was considered by outsiders to be part of a much larger sect, Judaism. Although Church Father's emphatically try to make the case for widespread persecution of Christians at their present time and in the past, no Christian (or non-Christian) author quotes the reference to the "Neronian persecution" until the 5th century, when it is quoted by the apologist Sulpicius Severus in a work replete with anachronisms and fanciful miracles. Indeed, some "Christians", if one could call the sect in its early stages of development that, may indeed have been persecuted for their religious ideals, though it would have been mere venting of Roman anti-Semitism at the obscure "Jewish" sect after the costly and foolhardy revolts in Judea, and not particular hatred of these people for worshipping "Christus."

///

Same ol' same ol' it appears.

"Christianity as sheer hatred for life" Quote of today. Yet Christians are Pro-Life and the communities of Bible-believing Christians are not where we find violent offenders of any crimes.

From those that violate Christ's teachings do we indeed see a far more violent form of a belief system and intolerance for the rights of others to live free and long lives.

" . . .but of hatred of the entire human race." A quote two millennia ago.

The denigration of "Christians" even in the word itself, - placed onto a peaceful, nonviolent and beautiful group of believers - is like rust. It never stops.

[micatala]

Some of the best things in life are pure selfish gratification. Since I regard Christianity as sheer hatred for life, this doesn't surprise me one bit.

And I will again repeat that this statement is not accurate. There is no real reason to hide the hatred inherent in the anti-Christian position. It is simply there for all too see.

I won't go into the reasons I think both of these statements are incorrect. You are each certainly entitled to your opinions.

However, both of these statements run afoul of the rules, at least in my interpretation based on the context.

7. Do not post frivolous, flame bait, or inflammatory messages.

Consider this a friendly warning from a moderator.

[melikio]

Why is the incredible insult of Christians by trencacloscas allowed to remain on this website?

Look and understand, that the real "effect" of many things YOU say...aren't what YOU think.

What picture of "Christianity" (good or bad) you yourself are painting (propagating). That is, if someone were NOT already committed to being a "Christian", who do you believe YOU might draw to considering it?

How do you communicate an idea to a human being who is completely new to truly understanding something? What, do you think that people "naturally" fall into "Christianity? How did Jesus communicate goodness? What is the effect of God's SPIRIT in human beings, and do YOU "believe" you respresent that AS and human being? (How/why?)

Is it possible that the "Christianity" YOU represent with your words, isn't exactly what God would approve of? Are YOU perfect? If you aren't PERFECT, what makes you worthy to compel others to BE more excellent than they are?

You see Al, these are REAL questions (only a few) that come from the hearts of REAL PEOPLE naturally (even Christians). YOU may have experienced a miracle which changed something in YOU that no one else here could know about, unless they themselves experienced it themselves.

The EFFECT of many Christians, is to bring "words" and not really show "love". What is to be expected of that? I KNOW what 1Cor13 says about people who do NOT have love; what it adds up to. No matter how wonderfully "HOLY" anyone may happen to be, they and their efforts add up to ZERO, when love isn't the foundation of their endeavors.

Now, I don't expect an atheist to adhere to that belief, but I DO expect it of a "CHRISTIAN" who is out here trying to reach anyone for Jesus. So what I'm saying is that much of what YOU see being rejected, denigrated or avoided by unbelievers, isn't REALLY "Christianity". There are distinctions to be made in people's behavior, doctrine, countenance, personality and overall willingness to LOVE others as Jesus is known for. You CANNOT bring people NOTHING or POOP, and expect them to do back-flips over it (YAHOO...I'VE BEEN...uh...notified).

Al, give me or anyone else who is gay a good reason to hang out with you, or just LISTEN to you...just one. If I'm gay, and happened to know you think the way you do, I'd have to have take a "defensive" posture, to protect YOU and myself. Most reasonable homosexual people aren't out here seeking "conflicts" with people who happen to be "Christians".

Realize or remember, that people come with baggage, and things like narcissism, sexual issues, honesty, kindness, spirituality and intellect are affected by LIFE ITSELF. Sure, we can drop a massive ANVIL upon someone and get an EFFECT, but ultimately we don't truly KNOW the outcome of every effort we make to affect others. Some "Christians" give their "label" a very BAD name, by being arrogant jerks. And no matter one's "philosophy" or "religion", or regardless of what it is based upon, those who represent what it's about have a significant effect upon how other human beings perceive it.

I sometimes WISH I couldn't say that I've encountered MANY "Christians" (wearing that label) who were terribly DIFFICULT people: narcissistic, arrogant, selfish, uncompassionate, hateful...expecting the WORLD to hold their views as being soley valid (in a world of insurmountable views)...etc. I try not to judge, but it does affect how I view the "Christianity" they exude. And it's one of the reasons I really don't care if I call myself a "Christian" ever again.

Yes, I've had it with trying to fit myself and others into the various labels which "Christian" represents. Not that I cannot or will not seek Christ in a relationship, but that those who believe they have the right to DUMP Christ upon others, are not people I aspire to emulate...or be dumped-upon by.

It is interesting that many people can tell that I'm a Christian, by the LOVE I choose to show them. Amazing...huh? And I know it they don't see anything else, that IS what they should see...at least, it is what I believe is the essence of true Christian behavior. I realize you aren't perfect and you have the views YOU do, but if you don't put love out front...what is it of "Christianity" that YOU think people will garner? Even tough-love is fine, as long as you prove overall that you DO "love". That is, if you can show that you HURT WITH those you are willing to hurt FOR Jesus, then you can prove something with that; words, facts and doctrines alone will never accomplish that (love) and Jesus Himself proved it.

-Mel-