If God wants to destroy evil...

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:17 pm

God created everything that has been, is, and is going to be in existence. He created the Earth and the Heavens. He created the Lake of Fire in which he casts sinners. He created Good, and He created evil. Does not the old adage says "I have created you, and so can I destroy you"?

If God wanted to, couldn't He, in theory, destroy evil with no need for the battle of the apocalypse?

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:32 pm

As for angels: it is my understanding that only God existed in the beginning, then he decided to create Heaven and Earth (Nietzsche speculates that it was a way for an imperfect God to look away from himself). My guess is that it included Angels et al. So, could He not have created the Angels to be perfect as He? If you wish to again bow out of the angel part, Asa, I understand, I'm just leaving this part open for anyone wishing to venture in.

Also, do Catholics, in general believe that humans become "good" or perhaps even "Godly" with the absolution of Original Sin? If so, I suppose that would make us disregard my (our?) theory.

I'm eager to hear from more Christians to either validate asa's views or otherwise.

Quemtal · Post by **Quemtal** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:52 pm

If God wanted to destroy evil, couldn't He?...That's the question.

The asnswer: of course. Matthew 19.26 'With man it is impossible, but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE'.

The thing is, we live in a world mared by sin. That is why there is death, pain, and suffering. It was all our own doing.

Good news: there's a way out--Jesus Christ. 'Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man the many will be made righteous.' Romans 5.18-19

Quemtal · Post by **Quemtal** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:56 pm

Whoops, I just read that and realised that maybe I didn't sum it at well enough. The point is, God did destroy evil, by destrying the hold is has on us, and He did that on the Cross. That's God destroying evil!

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:42 pm

Destroying evil and destroying the effects of evil (neither of which, I might note, has he done) are two different things.

The Happy Humanist · Post by **The Happy Humanist** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:22 am

This thread is coming very close to a conundrum I have recently come across. I tried to "tease" it in a topic I started called "What's It Like In Heaven?" but nobody took the bait.

The conundrum is this:
1) There is obviously no sin in heaven.
2) But is there free will? The assumption is yes, since God has made it clear that he greatly values Free Will in his creations; that, in fact, is what this "song and dance" is all about. And of course, it wouldn't be heaven if we couldn't do as we pleased!

3) So this means that when we arrive at the pearly gates, we are stripped of Original Sin, but not of our Free Will.
4) It is therefore within God's ability to create free agents that are incapable of sin.
Now for the conundrum (drum roll please):

WHY DIDN'T HE DO THIS TO BEGIN WITH?

The only answer I can see is that he wished evil to exist, which would make him inherently evil himself, which would, of course, strongly militate towards his non-existence....

Arch · Post by **Arch** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:56 am

jimspeiser wrote:This thread is coming very close to a conundrum I have recently come across. I tried to "tease" it in a topic I started called "What's It Like In Heaven?" but nobody took the bait.

The conundrum is this:
1) There is obviously no sin in heaven.
2) But is there free will? The assumption is yes, since God has made it clear that he greatly values Free Will in his creations; that, in fact, is what this "song and dance" is all about. And of course, it wouldn't be heaven if we couldn't do as we pleased!
3) So this means that when we arrive at the pearly gates, we are stripped of Original Sin, but not of our Free Will.
4) It is therefore within God's ability to create free agents that are incapable of sin.
Now for the conundrum (drum roll please):

WHY DIDN'T HE DO THIS TO BEGIN WITH?

The only answer I can see is that he wished evil to exist, which would make him inherently evil himself, which would, of course, strongly militate towards his non-existence....

This is a very logical train of thought. I would be interested in seeing what the responses will be from the faithful and the saints on this website. I would hope they could come with something better than the Jesus saved us so that's that arguements.

keltzkroz · Post by **keltzkroz** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:33 pm

Let me add a few things to your train of thought:

1) There is obviously no sin in heaven.

Is Heaven a place where painters have only one color to work with, or a place where painters use only one color out of all the others every time?

2) But is there free will? The assumption is yes, since God has made it clear that he greatly values Free Will in his creations; that, in fact, is what this "song and dance" is all about. And of course, it wouldn't be heaven if we couldn't do as we pleased! Very Happy
3) So this means that when we arrive at the pearly gates, we are stripped of Original Sin, but not of our Free Will.

I'd rather think of heaven as a place where we could not do what is not pleasing to everybody, and everything we do is pleasing to everybody, not a place where we can do as we please.

4) It is therefore within God's ability to create free agents that are incapable of sin.
Now for the conundrum (drum roll please):

WHY DIDN'T HE DO THIS TO BEGIN WITH?

Why would He do it in the first place? Because He loves us? I'm curious about your thoughts on this.

Arch · Post by **Arch** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:37 pm

keltzkroz it would be hard for me to say that you answered the points that were addressed in that post. I would like to help it be clarified at least for myself.

keltzkroz wrote:Let me add a few things to your train of thought:
1) There is obviously no sin in heaven.

Is Heaven a place where painters have only one color to work with, or a place where painters use only one color out of all the others every time?

I didn't get the painters thingy.... So how about this a simple yes or no answer to IS THERE SIN IN HEAVEN?

It would be pressing to comprehend that there is sin in heaven when there are those burning in a lake for that exact thing SINNING!

keltkroz wrote:
2) But is there free will? The assumption is yes, since God has made it clear that he greatly values Free Will in his creations; that, in fact, is what this "song and dance" is all about. And of course, it wouldn't be heaven if we couldn't do as we pleased! Very Happy
3) So this means that when we arrive at the pearly gates, we are stripped of Original Sin, but not of our Free Will.

I'd rather think of heaven as a place where we could not do what is not pleasing to everybody, and everything we do is pleasing to everybody, not a place where we can do as we please.

For the simple minded..... IS THERE FREE WILL IN HEAVEN YES OR NO?

And if there is free will in heaven how it is that the same people who couldn't stop sinning before heaven are going to be able to accomplish this task when they get into heaven? That is why Jesus came right. He died cause people simply couldn't stop sinning on their own!!!

keltkroz wrote:
4) It is therefore within God's ability to create free agents that are incapable of sin.
Now for the conundrum (drum roll please):

WHY DIDN'T HE DO THIS TO BEGIN WITH?

Why would He do it in the first place? Because He loves us? I'm curious about your thoughts on this.

I don't get this answer because he loves us. So let me get this straight. It's within the power of god to create beings with free will, yet make it impossible for them to sin(no sin in heaven thing). Yet he didn't do this in the beginning because he loves us so much that HE wanted to send over One Third of us to the lake of fire, because we were not created that way.

IS THAT RIGHT? Are you sure?

The Happy Humanist · Post by **The Happy Humanist** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:51 pm

1) There is obviously no sin in heaven.
Is Heaven a place where painters have only one color to work with, or a place where painters use only one color out of all the others every time?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the implications of your question. I assume it is a metaphor, but I'm not quite catching it. More plainly please?

2) But is there free will? The assumption is yes, since God has made it clear that he greatly values Free Will in his creations; that, in fact, is what this "song and dance" is all about. And of course, it wouldn't be heaven if we couldn't do as we pleased! Very Happy
3) So this means that when we arrive at the pearly gates, we are stripped of Original Sin, but not of our Free Will.
I'd rather think of heaven as a place where we could not do what is not pleasing to everybody, and everything we do is pleasing to everybody, not a place where we can do as we please.

This implies that there is no free will, that we become automatons, rather like The Stepford Wives. I assume you mean by this that we no longer want to do anything that is displeasing to anyone. I can envision this, even within the context of Free Will, but not without a significant change to our individual character - in which case, we will no longer really be "us." So it won't really be "me" that goes to heaven (fat chance anyway), but a simulation of me with some upgraded DLLs in my processing module. But...well, I'll leave it to you. Will we have free will or not in Heaven? And have you considered the implications of either scenario?

WHY DIDN'T HE DO THIS TO BEGIN WITH?
Why would He do it in the first place? Because He loves us? I'm curious about your thoughts on this.

Did you mean "would" or "wouldn't" above? My thoughts will depend on your answer.

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:52 pm

keltzkroz wrote:Let me add a few things to your train of thought:

1) There is obviously no sin in heaven.

Is Heaven a place where painters have only one color to work with, or a place where painters use only one color out of all the others every time?

2) But is there free will? The assumption is yes, since God has made it clear that he greatly values Free Will in his creations; that, in fact, is what this "song and dance" is all about. And of course, it wouldn't be heaven if we couldn't do as we pleased! Very Happy
3) So this means that when we arrive at the pearly gates, we are stripped of Original Sin, but not of our Free Will.

I'd rather think of heaven as a place where we could not do what is not pleasing to everybody, and everything we do is pleasing to everybody, not a place where we can do as we please.

4) It is therefore within God's ability to create free agents that are incapable of sin.
Now for the conundrum (drum roll please):

WHY DIDN'T HE DO THIS TO BEGIN WITH?

Why would He do it in the first place? Because He loves us? I'm curious about your thoughts on this.

If that's what Heaven is like, I'm not sure why you Christians are so eager to get there as opposed to spending more time here on Earth. From your description Earth seems like the better place. God created us with free will, because He loves us. God sends those of us who do not choose him of our own free will to a lake of fire to burn for all eternity, and those of us who do choose him are brought up to Heaven to live for eternity with him, but stripped of their personality?

Also, am I right in thinking that the painter metaphor is about how there is still the ability (in theory) to sin, but they just don't want to anymore?