Sentient Earth - Is the planet mindful and would this explain why there is life in earth?

[The Tanager]

In another thread, William and I were talking about morality and we got off on some topics like the one above. We decided to have that conversation here. This is the first question I'd like to look at. I do think life on earth is only ultimately explained via some kind of mind (or personal agent or creator). I think this belief is rationally supported by various arguments such as the Kalam cosmological argument, the fine-tuning argument, the moral argument, the applicability of mathematics, and the argument from consciousness. I do not think these arguments lead us to the conclusion that a sentient Earth is the ultimate mind behind it all or that it is a mindful link in the chain of creation. I don't think these arguments necessarily rule out a sentient Earth either (although I haven't given this point more than a surface consideration). But logical possibility is not a deciding test of truth, so we need to go further and find reasoning to lead us to the planet actually being mindful. Currently, I see no good reason to believe our planet is mindful.

So, William, I'd love to hear why you think we are rationally warranted in asserting that the planet is mindful and at least part of the chain of creation that led to us. In that other thread you seemed to just assert the Earth as a mindful example and thought that I was doing the same with the immaterial Mind behind creation. If I was that would certainly be a double standard, but I think the above arguments support an immaterial Mind behind creation. What arguments do you think support a sentient Earth?

[The Tanager]

That being the case, the hierarchy of minds would also be considered by you to being logically possible.

Yes.

And therein, how would one go about deciding that...

Reasonable arguments built off of scientific, historical, logical, philosophical, etc. truths.

Why not? Mindfulness is part of the overall happening on the planet. We agree there is an overall Mindful Creator, and we agree there are mindful critters made out of the same materials as the planet, so why not take the idea that the planet may also possibly be mindful and run with that?

Both ideas (mindlessness and mindfulness) are possible. You can’t just run with one and not the other, unless you have good reasons to do so.

How can we conclude anything. I thought we were simply discussing a possibility - perhaps in the hope that by doing so, we might at least agree it might be a probability.
If it is a conclusion you want, (specifically from me) then I am sorry...it was not something I ever promised to or implied I could provide...but at least we have cleared up any confusion therein.

Do you mean something like “more probable than not” by your ‘it might be a probability’? If so, then it’s the same thing I mean by ‘conclude’. 100% certainty is not one I’m asking you for.

Are you arguing therefore that the way this universe is unfolding, is not necessary? If so, perhaps you can offer other possible ways in which the same thing could have been accomplished?

I’m saying I see no reason to believe the way it is unfolding is necessary. It’s logically possible that it must necessarily unfold this way and it’s logically possible that it just contingently unfolds this way, but could have unfolded a different way.

I am not arguing it is actually the case. Are you arguing that your beliefs re God (The Creator Mind) are actually the case Jason?

No, but I can. Remember when I said there were three avenues for our discussion: (1) if a view is logically possible, (2) if a view fits with the evidence, and (3) if a view is actually true (i.e., the most reasonable view to believe). I said all the views you have been talking about are logically possible and seem to fit with the evidence, so I had nothing to say there, but could talk about (3) if you wanted to and you said you did. That requires you arguing it is actually the case. If you don’t want to do that, then I’m not sure we have anything to talk about here.

[William]

Sentient Earth - Is the planet mindful and would this explain why there is life in earth?

Do you have an answer to your question?

[The Tanager]

Sentient Earth - Is the planet mindful and would this explain why there is life in earth?

Do you have an answer to your question?

Yes, as I've already said, it would explain why there is life in earth, but I see no good reason to believe the planet is actually mindful.

[William]

Sentient Earth - Is the planet mindful and would this explain why there is life in earth?

Do you have an answer to your question?

Yes, as I've already said, it would explain why there is life in earth, but I see no good reason to believe the planet is actually mindful.

I think that this is so with atheists as well, but perhaps (most likely) for different reasons?

The following are atheist replies to the same question - examples echoing a similar stance as your own above.

"A possibility of course does not make that the fact you appear to have been claiming for a cosmic Mind of which the mindful earth and indeed consciousness is a part, is it not? Then I can give again the evolutionary case for reaction - instinct - problem-solving and human reasoning, so I await your evidence for your 'possibility'."

And.

"Asserting the planet (earth) is the builder and the human mind is the operator and mindfulness is the common denominator therein, is not proof. We know a computer has a builder/operator. It's built/operated by humans and we both know we have proof for this conclusion. What about the brain?"

[Waterfall]

Namaskaram...

[Replying to The Tanager in post #1]

Thanks for starting this thread Jason. I hope we can gain insight and even agreement as we interact in this informal manner.

I do not think these arguments lead us to the conclusion that a sentient Earth is the ultimate mind behind it all or that it is a mindful link in the chain of creation.

I certainly agree that a sentient (intelligent self aware) Earth cannot be the Ultimate Mind (The Creator Mind) but do think it is a mindful link in the chain (hierarchy) of such creator minds (gods) and the localized mindful link between us non-god sentient aware beings and The Creator Mind.

I don't think these arguments necessarily rule out a sentient Earth either (although I haven't given this point more than a surface consideration).

What we are doing here may offer you a means of giving it a deeper consideration.

But logical possibility is not a deciding test of truth, so we need to go further and find reasoning to lead us to the planet actually being mindful. Currently, I see no good reason to believe our planet is mindful.

As you mentioned, logical possibility has something to do with why you believe in the existence of The Creator Mind (you call/refer to as "God" - specifically the biblical idea of) and I am interested in what "test of truth" you applied in order to reach any conclusion of belief other than logical possibility.

Our differences seem to primarily be along the lines that you do not see why such (a chain of mindful hierarchy) is necessary in relation to The Creator Mind, whereas I do.

We do appear to agree that The Creator Mind is "The Real" re "First" from which all else (including all mindfulness) which exists is sourced.

So, William, I'd love to hear why you think we are rationally warranted in asserting that the planet is mindful and at least part of the chain of creation that led to us.

There are a number of reasons why I think such should be included in rational thinking Jason. I think that since such has never been serious considered/included, adds to the reasons why human beings (re their systems of governing and beliefs et al) behave in a disconnected manner re the planet, treating it as merely a mindless prop/something which can be owned and fought over.

Also, when one does begin to understand or see it as a self aware entity, one tends to view it in the feminine, something which our major religions tend to forget in their presentation of the masculine re The Creator Mind.

The list goes on, but these two examples can be rationally addressed for now.

In that other thread you seemed to just assert the Earth as a mindful example and thought that I was doing the same with the immaterial Mind behind creation. If I was that would certainly be a double standard, but I think the above arguments support an immaterial Mind behind creation.

As I noted, we agree in principle to the notion of their being The Creator Mind.
I have been under the impression that you consider The Creator Mind (and minds in general) to being immaterial. Is this not the case re your belief re mindfulness?

The expression "an immaterial Mind behind creation" also needs to be explained by you, as we may not be (and based on our previous arguments) probably are not saying the exact same thing re The Creator Mind.

I think our major difference is that you believe that The Creator Mind and this created universe are separate entities outside of each other. You believe that The Creator Mind created the universe outside of itself, while my current understanding is that the universe exists within The Creator Mind.

That is probably the best place for us to begin this journey, by explaining why we each think differently about The Creator Mind and what rationality we applied to reach our different understandings.

Also, I will be using the GPT (LLS) as a device as a third party commentator. I hope that will not be a problem with you.

Have we found the sources of inspiration? Thought (feminine) and Will (masculine) and Light (good) and Darkness (evil). I think everything is inside God and that God has chosen the Light. Is there not a choice to make...

https://www.toward-the-light.net/

We need some deep thinking Let us inspire our brothers and sisters...







Your friend forever

Waterfall

[William]

Namaskaram..."Waterfall". Thank you for joining this informal discussion.

I think everything is inside God and that God has chosen the Light. Is there not a choice to make...

I understand it in the same way. There is only The Creator Mind and there is no "outside" of that.

I understand this universe as been one particular "room" in the "house" that is The Creator Mind...
In the beginning The Creator Mind started the creation of this universe which eventually lead to the formation of this planet earth.

Initially the earth was empty of life.

An aspect of The Creator Mind, indwelled the planet, enabling a great assortment of creatures to evolve from the stuff of the planet also enabling the mindful entity to indwell the creatures created and through that process, bring about animated mindful life in the creatures.
(The material of this (and any) universe is the condensed material of The Creator Mind.)
All of this involved the epochs re Big Bang Theory and The Theory of Biological Evolution.

The idea that all this is happening within The Creator Mind has to do with navigating around the alternative proposal of a Creator making the universe as a separate entity outside of Itself.
Further to that, this also avoids the clear parallels the alternative proposal has with Simulation Theory, which also has it that such a creator(s) created a mechanism outside of itself/themselves.

Having watched the second of the three videos you have posted, ("Why hasn't humanity known the truth about its origins?") perhaps this is a good place to start a deeper discussion re the thread topic?

My first observation has to do with the idea we have "fallen creators" which "did not want us to have knowledge"

(This mythology is also prevalent in some branches of Christianity.)

Re this thread subject, such would reflect on The Creator Mind - and It not wanting the mindfulness within the creature forms to have knowledge.

Can we explain/come up with a plausible explanation as why this would be the case?

[William]

My thoughts are that taking the Biblical Creation story literally, poses its own set of problems, which atheists capitalise on in their argument against the universe being a created thing (and thus the necessity of having a creator/creators involved with the process of biological evolution)

I think it is reasonable to accept that the Earth is Sentient – imbued with the Mindfulness sourced in The Creator Mind.

I think that morality is a natural accompanying attribute of mindfulness. Being self-aware in relation to creating stuff, The Creator Mind – be it within the form of a Galaxy, or – in this case – a planet, morality may be experienced differently by planet mindfulness than by human mindfulness.

This may be a reason why certain theists reject, downplay or remain wilfully ignorant regarding the subject. They would rather think about The Creator mindfulness as being separate from the mindfulness involved in the stuff created and thus think in terms which “clear” said Creator Mind from any direct involvement re the moral issues which have arisen as a result of human mindfulness within the context of the created thing (universe – specifically earth/life on earth).

I think the obstacles/barriers/stumbling blocks which come with the belief that The Creator made the universe outside of Itself and also madd minds to occupy the universe specifically implies Simulation Theory – often also denied by the same proponents of Creation (outside of the creator( Theory) but nonetheless the resemblance is unmistakable and requires the necessity to trust such a creator – a necessity which is absent from the theory that we exist within The Creator Mind.

Morality then becomes something which is not across the board re the different degrees of mindfulness within the various forms (the universe, the galaxies the earth and human beings.
In other words, the morality differs in regard to the situation the mindfulness is experiencing – one example being that humans might apply the idea of a mindful entity (earth) creating creatures which feed off one another as reprehensible – whereas if the notion is that the earth is mindless, no such judgement can apply.
But is such judgement applicable even if the earth is mindful?
And if so, why?

In the biblical story, following their Exodus from Egypt, the Israelites set out from Mount Hor to go to the Red Sea. However they had to detour around the land of Edom (Numbers 20:21, 25). Impatient, they complained against Yahweh and Moses (Numbers 21:4–5), and in response God sent "fiery serpents" among them and many died. The people came to Moses to repent and asked him to ask God to take away the serpents. Moses prayed to God, who told Moses, "Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole; and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live." (Numbers 21:4–9)

The term appears in 2 Kings 18:4 in a passage describing reforms made by King Hezekiah, in which he tore down altars, cut down symbols of Asherah, destroyed the Nehushtan, and according to many Bible translations, gave it that name.

Regarding the passage in 2 Kings 18:4 M. G. Easton noted that "the lapse of nearly one thousand years had invested the 'brazen serpent' with a mysterious sanctity; and in order to deliver the people from their infatuation, and impress them with the idea of its worthlessness, Hezekiah called it, in contempt, 'Nehushtan', a brazen thing, a mere piece of brass".

It would appear then, that the idea of the Earth Mind (which I argue is the Bible God - YHVH) is permitted to use such things as these “fiery serpents” to kill humans and the act is not immoral for that.

The humans then developed an image to remind them of the incident, but over a long period of time, the imagery became set in the cultural psyche and given a “holy” status (much like the Bible has become for modern Christian Culture) and people were infatuated by it.
King Hezekiah recognised the immorality therein and set about destroying all such imagery as a means of alleviating folk from their misguided infatuation by deleting such from the culture altogether thus affecting the cultural morality.

Re Nehushtan (in our modern world) a staff with a snake wrapped around it is used as a symbol for medicine, a remnant of Greek and Roman mythology. It is the staff of an ancient healer god, known as Asklepios in Greece and Aesculapius in Rome. Incidental to that, Greek and Roman mythology are influencing attributes of New Testament Biblical script. A melding of sorts (re Hebrew Culture).

[The Tanager]

I think that this is so with atheists as well, but perhaps (most likely) for different reasons?

Why most likely for different reasons? I don’t reject it because I’m a theist. They don’t reject it because they are atheists. I would gather we are on the same page here, where we see a complete lack of evidence or good reasoning in support of the view and that is why we both would reject it. We would disagree on what explains the observations you’ve mentioned, but probably not why we reject your view.

[William]

I think that this is so with atheists as well, but perhaps (most likely) for different reasons?

Why most likely for different reasons? I don’t reject it because I’m a theist. They don’t reject it because they are atheists. I would gather we are on the same page here, where we see a complete lack of evidence or good reasoning in support of the view and that is why we both would reject it. We would disagree on what explains the observations you’ve mentioned, but probably not why we reject your view.

I’m not sure we have anything more to talk about here.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to William in post #66]

Namaskaram William

https://isha.sadhguru.org/en/wisdom/art ... ar-meaning

I like your way of thinking (a "room" in the "house") but why do you think there are many universes? Why not just 1 universe? If there are 2 universes then why not 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and so on? But what would be the point/meaning with many universes? Is 1 universe not enough? Where is the Kingdom of God? Just for inspiration...

https://www.thelight.net/kingdom.htm

Why are we not in Heaven? What are we doing in this world? Has there been a fall? Just for inspiration...

https://www.krishna.com/where-do-fallen-souls-fall

I think God wants us to know the truth so why have we not known it? Who has prevented us from knowing it? The fallen angels? Has there been a fight between the power of Light and the power of Darkness? What are we seeking...















Your friend forever

Waterfall