Western Civilization built on Chritianity

[servant]

Christianity and nothing else is the ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights and democracy, the benchmarks of Western civilization. We continue to nourish ourselves from this source."

-Jurgen Habermas, "A Time of Transition"

For discussion:

Has not Christianity done many wonderful things for the west and the world?
Was not the West shaped by Christian influence in literature, history and philosophy? Any why is this a bad thing?

[Okieshowedem]

There is not one ounce of truth in the Christian religion.
If you doubt that learn who changed the Sabbath and why.


Okieshowedem

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

why is this a bad thing?

Because of all the evil and bad things it has also spread, I’d say.

[servant]

There is not one ounce of truth in the Christian religion.

Would that be a International avoirdupois ounce, International troy ounce, Apothecaries ounce, Maria Theresa ounce or Metric ounce. How about just one gram of truth in the Christian religion or is it all completely false?

servant wrote:
why is this a bad thing?

Because of all the evil and bad things it has also spread, I’d say.

Evil and bad things like our laws, our economics, our politics, our arts, our moral and cultural priorities. Historian J.M. Roberts writes, "We could none of us today be what we are if a handful of Jews nearly two thousand years ago had not believed that they had known a great teacher, seen him crucified, dead, and buried, and then rise again."

Here I will throw everyone a bone. There is a point of view that Christianity first had the idea of separation of religion and government. That it is not an American or Enlightenment idea at all. Now we could hardly call separation of religion and government a bad thing. Right?

[AClockWorkOrange]

Our government and culture had more to do with enlightenment era philosophers, and French political scientists than Christ.

[wrekk]

There is a point of view that Christianity first had the idea of separation of religion and government. That it is not an American or Enlightenment idea at all. Now we could hardly call separation of religion and government a bad thing. Right?

I would argue that the founders of this country had this idea. Not Christianity itself.

[servant]

Our government and culture had more to do with enlightenment era philosophers, and French political scientists than Christ.

I would argue that the founders of this country had this idea. Not Christianity itself.

Christ seems to be the first person that points this out in Matthew 22:21, "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and to God that which is God's".

This was such a radical idea that the Romans and Greeks considered Christians to be atheists. Ancient Roman writer Celsus apparently attacked Christianity saying something along those lines.

Augustine in "The City of God" argued that while our time here on earth we inhabit two realms, earthly and heavenly. The idea of limited government appears to have started growing here.

Even during the Spanish Inquisition, if you committed heresy you were tried by the church but if you committed murder you were tried by the state.

When the Church started using the power of the Church and the power of the state is when the Puritans decided to flee for America. Their objective appeared to not have been religious freedom but rather to impose their version of orthodoxy on a new society.

It was not until some modern thinkers like John Locke did religious freedom come about. This was because they did not like the form of Christianity that had come to dominate the West.

The new American founders had some issues. There were several denominations that wanted to dominate and impose there form of orthodoxy into law. Lucky for us none were strong enough. They agreed to leave central government out of religion.

Even Thomas Jefferson most likely one of the least religious people said, "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?"

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

I read an interesting piece in Karen Armstrong’s latest book which maintains the old Jews invented this, not Jesus. In reference to the Deuteronomists (the various authors and editors of Deuteronomy) she writes:

“To ensure the purity of worship, they tried to centralize the cult (Deut. 11:21), create a secular judiciary independent of the temple, and strip the king of his sacral powers, making him subject to the torah like everybody else… In some ways, Deuteronomy, with its secular sphere, centralized state and constitutional monarchy, reads like a modern document.”

— Karen Armstrong: The Bible The Biography (p.22).

[AClockWorkOrange]

The idea that the seperation of church and state originated with Jesus is laughable, and to some extent a missunderstanding of Jesus' radical message.

Civilizations' relationship to religion has always been an intermittent one; whenever the populous is degredated, religion seems to become a big deal (Jews, some points in Hinduism, early Christianity) and when the nation is better off, they tend to behave more secularly, or at the very least religion became an after though (Spartans, Romans).

Christianity is notable in its ability to latch on to a huge populous and never let go to their government. (Islam, too).

Jesus' statement of renduring unto Ceaser was apologetic in nature, hoping to apeal a wider audience, and not shake the waters up too much too soon.
It doesn make sense to get martyred before anyone cares about what your saying.