on the atmosphere of this forum

[cnorman18]

Expanded from a comment on another thread:

For some of our newer members, anything less than a total rejection and denial of anything even vaguely "spiritual" or "religious" is evidence of mental defect, aka "irrationality" (as in "you don't know how to think") and worthy of only contempt and derision. In any other context, such an attitude would be called. "intolerant," "doctrinaire," and "disrespectful," but here on the forum of late, civility, tolerance and mutual respect seem to be taking a back seat to scorched-earth tactics and open contempt.

I would readily grant that there are some on the fundamentalist side, again some relative newbies in particular, who are equally guilty of such behavior; but the misdeeds of either side do not justify or make acceptable the incivility of the other, particular when that incivility is applied indiscriminately and not just to the other side's offenders.

I would like to see more moderator intervention, not less. It is one thing to say, "I respectfully disagree." It is quite another to add heavy doses of ridicule, contempt and derision, not to mention personal aspersions on one's ability to reason or one's personal morality and "spiritual vision" or "maturity."

I have been happy here for many months. DC&R has been a place where I could enjoy, as billed, "intelligent, civil, courteous and respectful debate among people of all persuasions." I have found it stimulating, fun, and thought-provoking.

Those days are largely gone. An authentic exchange of ideas is still possible here, but to find it one must wade through and filter out an ocean of spiritual pride, self-righteousness, intellectual arrogance, inflexibly doctrinaire definitions and pronouncements, and, worse than all of these, constant, unrelenting, personally offensive, and sneering contempt for oneself and one's opinions.

I have been posting here virtually every day since November of last year, and I think I have made some significant contributions.
But I no longer feel like I am coming to a friendly, welcoming place where I can quietly talk and compare ideas with friends who like, respect and accept me. I feel like I am going to a fistfight with people who have no regard for me as a human being, who dislike me personally on account of my beliefs, and who neither have nor express any respect whatever for either those views or me. Even some of our older members are beginning to be infected by this uncivil and disrespectful attitude. I think this is a tragedy.

This is becoming an unpleasant place to spend one's time. Some members have already left, including some fine new ones; and I think more will leave if this ugly and acrimonious atmosphere does not change. In fact, I think that is certain.

Early on, I myself threatened to leave this forum on account of what I perceived as unpoliced and unopposed antisemitism. That problem was resolved. This one may be more difficult to handle. It threatens the very reason for the existence of this forum--civil and respectful debate.

Let me make this clear: I DO NOT CARE if you think yourself to be on a righteous crusade to either win the world for Jesus or rid the world of the pernicious plague of religious superstition. Personal respect for the other members of this forum AND FOR THEIR OPINIONS is more important than your "vital mission." How will you argue for your point of view if everyone you would argue it TO leaves in disgust?

As I said on another thread: If you are about disrespecting and demeaning other people, claiming to be spiritually or intellectually superior to them, and sneering at those who do not think or believe as you do--well, as far as I'm concerned, you're full of crap no matter what you believe or how smart you are.

[olavisjo]

You just declared that your mind is closed and you are unwilling to debate. How exactly do you expect us to react?

I never said that I am unwilling to debate, and if you don't make a similar declaration, I have every bit of incentive to continue debate or dialog or proselytizing. Are you willing to say that your mind is made up and you will not change?
As for your reaction, if you are here to change me, you may find that you are wasting your time and simply move on to others that may benefit from your debate or dialog or proselytizing.
This is the way it is, if I were to tell you that I have an open mind I would be lying. Even if I keep that fact to myself, I would be dishonest with you.

If your mind is closed and you are unwilling to debate, you need to leave. Right now.

TC

May I assume that your response is evidence that your mind is still open?
The reason that my mind is closed is that I know I am going to die as a Christian, and I used to be where you are, although I was not as intelligent or well read as you are, yet I know first hand that there is nothing to go back to.
Supposing they discovered documents from arround 100 A.D. written by men that invented Jesus in order to begin the greatest hoax ever perpetuated on mankind, I would still believe in Jesus, I would just think that God used a rather bizarre method to write the Bible. I am not concerned with the actual reality of what happened 2000 years ago, it is the very words themselves that I find in the Bible that are divinely inspired, the story and the words attributed to Jesus has changed me in a way that has given my spirit life where there was only death before, so how could I ever renounce my faith?
However, if you want me to go away, there is a button at the bottom of this post that says 'profile' click it and then find 'Ignore' and click it and I will go away. I am not sure how it works as I have never used it.
If you do push it, I wish you Godspeed.

[daedalus 2.0]

You just declared that your mind is closed and you are unwilling to debate. How exactly do you expect us to react?

I never said that I am unwilling to debate, and if you don't make a similar declaration, I have every bit of incentive to continue debate or dialog or proselytizing. Are you willing to say that your mind is made up and you will not change?
As for your reaction, if you are here to change me, you may find that you are wasting your time and simply move on to others that may benefit from your debate or dialog or proselytizing.
This is the way it is, if I were to tell you that I have an open mind I would be lying. Even if I keep that fact to myself, I would be dishonest with you.

If your mind is closed and you are unwilling to debate, you need to leave. Right now.

TC

May I assume that your response is evidence that your mind is still open?
The reason that my mind is closed is that I know I am going to die as a Christian, and I used to be where you are, although I was not as intelligent or well read as you are, yet I know first hand that there is nothing to go back to.
Supposing they discovered documents from arround 100 A.D. written by men that invented Jesus in order to begin the greatest hoax ever perpetuated on mankind, I would still believe in Jesus, I would just think that God used a rather bizarre method to write the Bible. I am not concerned with the actual reality of what happened 2000 years ago, it is the very words themselves that I find in the Bible that are divinely inspired, the story and the words attributed to Jesus has changed me in a way that has given my spirit life where there was only death before, so how could I ever renounce my faith?
However, if you want me to go away, there is a button at the bottom of this post that says 'profile' click it and then find 'Ignore' and click it and I will go away. I am not sure how it works as I have never used it.
If you do push it, I wish you Godspeed.

Praise Jesus! Now that is Faith! I admire you. Forget evidence or truth, only care about what you personally believe and you will be saved! Your vision of Heaven will come true if only you believe strongly enough. Click your heels together and intone "I believe in Jesus! I will go to Heaven!"

[olavisjo]

Praise Jesus! Now that is Faith! I admire you. Forget evidence or truth, only care about what you personally believe and you will be saved! Your vision of Heaven will come true if only you believe strongly enough. Click your heels together and intone "I believe in Jesus! I will go to Heaven!"

I was dead in my sins, Jesus gave me a new life, so if you ask me if Jesus is real or not, I can only tell you that he gave me life, if he is a myth, then his myth gave me life.
It is like the blind man that he once healed, the Pharisees did not believe that Jesus was the messiah because he healed the blind man on the sabbath. So they asked the formerly blind man if Jesus was a sinner, the man said "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!"
In the same way Jesus gave me life when I was dead in my sins.

[Thought Criminal]

May I assume that your response is evidence that your mind is still open?

An open mind is an absolute requirement for debate. If you come out here and speak without listening, you are simply wasting my time, and that of anyone else who might be misled into thinking you're capable of debate.

The reason that my mind is closed is that I know I am going to die as a Christian, and I used to be where you are, although I was not as intelligent or well read as you are, yet I know first hand that there is nothing to go back to.

I'm quite certain that you've never been where I am now, because there is no path from here to closed-mindedness.

Supposing they discovered documents from arround 100 A.D. written by men that invented Jesus in order to begin the greatest hoax ever perpetuated on mankind, I would still believe in Jesus, I would just think that God used a rather bizarre method to write the Bible. I am not concerned with the actual reality of what happened 2000 years ago, it is the very words themselves that I find in the Bible that are divinely inspired, the story and the words attributed to Jesus has changed me in a way that has given my spirit life where there was only death before, so how could I ever renounce my faith?

Are you proud of this willingness to ignore all evidence? Is this what faith means to you: belief based on ignoring the truth?

However, if you want me to go away, there is a button at the bottom of this post that says 'profile' click it and then find 'Ignore' and click it and I will go away. I am not sure how it works as I have never used it.
If you do push it, I wish you Godspeed.

I'm not a solipsist; ignoring you won't make you go away. Frankly, I think you should be summarily kicked from this forum, because you have stated outright that you are not here for debate. I will not debate you, just point out where you're wrong.

TC

[Thought Criminal]

Praise Jesus! Now that is Faith! I admire you. Forget evidence or truth, only care about what you personally believe and you will be saved! Your vision of Heaven will come true if only you believe strongly enough. Click your heels together and intone "I believe in Jesus! I will go to Heaven!"

I was dead in my sins, Jesus gave me a new life, so if you ask me if Jesus is real or not, I can only tell you that he gave me life, if he is a myth, then his myth gave me life.
It is like the blind man that he once healed, the Pharisees did not believe that Jesus was the messiah because he healed the blind man on the sabbath. So they asked the formerly blind man if Jesus was a sinner, the man said "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!"
In the same way Jesus gave me life when I was dead in my sins.

Sin doesn't exist, so this is essentially nonsense. All you're saying is that you felt guilty, so you pretended some imaginary person forgives you.

TC

[cnorman18]

Sin doesn't exist...

I'm really curious about what you mean by this.

Jews don't the term nearly as often as Christians, and we look at it in a different way; but the concept is still there.

I'm not looking for an argument; I just wonder what you mean. Surely not that there is no such thing as moral right or wrong; that would imply that it would be perfectly okay to abolish the teaching of evolution in the schools and replace it with "Creationism"...?

[OnceConvinced]

Those that protest to some that claim otters are going to hell ...

OK, I know it is a typo, but I am just trying to picture someone condemning otters to hell.

Well God would condemn people who's only real crime is refusal to worship him, so why wouldn't he condemn otters as well?

[OnceConvinced]

I find it interesting atheists don't tend to go to the places where God works among people.

Sure they do and have for centuries, they just don't actually see anything happening because nothing is happening. Instead, you find perfectly normal, natural events which theists blindly claim are supernatural in origin.

Absolutely. I have spent almost my entire life attending church services and activities (40 years) and in all that time, never saw anything out of the ordinary. I certainly heard a lot of stories and a lot of testomonies, but never proof of those stories. I heard a lot of amazing stories about supernatural events relating to particular Evangelists and Christian faith healers, but on attending their meetings, never once saw anything in the remote bit supernatural.

[olavisjo]

An open mind is an absolute requirement for debate. If you come out here and speak without listening, you are simply wasting my time, and that of anyone else who might be misled into thinking you're capable of debate.

I assure you that I am listening. If I can mislead someone into thinking that I am capable of debate, then by definition, I am capable of debate.

I'm quite certain that you've never been where I am now, because there is no path from here to closed-mindedness.

Finding the truth and knowing that you have found it may change your mind about that.

Are you proud of this willingness to ignore all evidence? Is this what faith means to you: belief based on ignoring the truth?

The words that I have found in the Bible are the truth, all else is irrelevant and will pass away.
Jesus said...

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

I'm not a solipsist; ignoring you won't make you go away. Frankly, I think you should be summarily kicked from this forum, because you have stated outright that you are not here for debate. I will not debate you, just point out where you're wrong.

TC

Okay, I am wrong a lot, your input will be appreciated.

[daedalus 2.0]

Praise Jesus! Now that is Faith! I admire you. Forget evidence or truth, only care about what you personally believe and you will be saved! Your vision of Heaven will come true if only you believe strongly enough. Click your heels together and intone "I believe in Jesus! I will go to Heaven!"

I was dead in my sins, Jesus gave me a new life, so if you ask me if Jesus is real or not, I can only tell you that he gave me life, if he is a myth, then his myth gave me life.
It is like the blind man that he once healed, the Pharisees did not believe that Jesus was the messiah because he healed the blind man on the sabbath. So they asked the formerly blind man if Jesus was a sinner, the man said "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!"
In the same way Jesus gave me life when I was dead in my sins.

That's right! Praise Jesus for anything that ever happens in your life and for life itself! It doesn't matter what it is. Praise him for your eyesight, your jeans, your pimples. Praise jesus for that nice long pee at the end of the day, or those bugs on your windshield. Praise Jesus for your life - forget about the 15 children who starved in the time it took me to wrote this - obviously they don't pray hard enough.

Praise Jesus for your warm bed, and the millions of people displaced by war and acts of God. Praise Jesus! Your life is so fantastically important. It's obvious because Jesus didn't strike you down with some terminal disease - like he does so often to sinners.

Praise Jesus and screw those other people who haven't been blessed by the Living Loving Man.

They don't deserve a glance from us, since Jesus has decided to ignore them. Jesus, as shown in the Bible only saves one or two people from afflictions as an example to the rest of us. Praise Him!

I think we can all praise Jesus for life. I'm so glad that Jesus gives people life. Like Norman Borlaug, Marcion, Hitler, Stalin, and Montel Williams. How would we function without knowing all of those wonderful and horrible people?

I'm sure Jesus gives painful, terminal diseases to children because he knows they will be boring in adulthood. If they aren't going to save people or kill people, or praise Jesus, they just shouldn't live. I'm glad Jesus is smart and perfect and knows all of this.

Praise Him! Lift your hands up and Praise the Lord, Prince of Peace on High; Overlord of all the World, Champion of the Realm of Light and King of Gondor!