on the atmosphere of this forum

[cnorman18]

Expanded from a comment on another thread:

For some of our newer members, anything less than a total rejection and denial of anything even vaguely "spiritual" or "religious" is evidence of mental defect, aka "irrationality" (as in "you don't know how to think") and worthy of only contempt and derision. In any other context, such an attitude would be called. "intolerant," "doctrinaire," and "disrespectful," but here on the forum of late, civility, tolerance and mutual respect seem to be taking a back seat to scorched-earth tactics and open contempt.

I would readily grant that there are some on the fundamentalist side, again some relative newbies in particular, who are equally guilty of such behavior; but the misdeeds of either side do not justify or make acceptable the incivility of the other, particular when that incivility is applied indiscriminately and not just to the other side's offenders.

I would like to see more moderator intervention, not less. It is one thing to say, "I respectfully disagree." It is quite another to add heavy doses of ridicule, contempt and derision, not to mention personal aspersions on one's ability to reason or one's personal morality and "spiritual vision" or "maturity."

I have been happy here for many months. DC&R has been a place where I could enjoy, as billed, "intelligent, civil, courteous and respectful debate among people of all persuasions." I have found it stimulating, fun, and thought-provoking.

Those days are largely gone. An authentic exchange of ideas is still possible here, but to find it one must wade through and filter out an ocean of spiritual pride, self-righteousness, intellectual arrogance, inflexibly doctrinaire definitions and pronouncements, and, worse than all of these, constant, unrelenting, personally offensive, and sneering contempt for oneself and one's opinions.

I have been posting here virtually every day since November of last year, and I think I have made some significant contributions.
But I no longer feel like I am coming to a friendly, welcoming place where I can quietly talk and compare ideas with friends who like, respect and accept me. I feel like I am going to a fistfight with people who have no regard for me as a human being, who dislike me personally on account of my beliefs, and who neither have nor express any respect whatever for either those views or me. Even some of our older members are beginning to be infected by this uncivil and disrespectful attitude. I think this is a tragedy.

This is becoming an unpleasant place to spend one's time. Some members have already left, including some fine new ones; and I think more will leave if this ugly and acrimonious atmosphere does not change. In fact, I think that is certain.

Early on, I myself threatened to leave this forum on account of what I perceived as unpoliced and unopposed antisemitism. That problem was resolved. This one may be more difficult to handle. It threatens the very reason for the existence of this forum--civil and respectful debate.

Let me make this clear: I DO NOT CARE if you think yourself to be on a righteous crusade to either win the world for Jesus or rid the world of the pernicious plague of religious superstition. Personal respect for the other members of this forum AND FOR THEIR OPINIONS is more important than your "vital mission." How will you argue for your point of view if everyone you would argue it TO leaves in disgust?

As I said on another thread: If you are about disrespecting and demeaning other people, claiming to be spiritually or intellectually superior to them, and sneering at those who do not think or believe as you do--well, as far as I'm concerned, you're full of crap no matter what you believe or how smart you are.

[Furrowed Brow]

We have failed when a discussion turns into a competition. We have abandoned the purpose of debate. We should want to learn. We should want to know the truth. We should be mature, civil, and humble. If humanity is to progress, we must cherish and defend these values. To abandon these values should be considered immoral, and possibly a crime against humanity.

You might set the bar up there somehwere. Me - I just want to get theists in a headlock until I can hear theirs bones crunch. I'm going to go put on my wrestling leotard. You better be here when I get back!

[cnorman18]

I think that fundamentalist attitudes and approaches are so common here that it is often assumed that there are no other kinds of theists around. I know that I have very often been accused, explicitly and implicitly, of holding such views when I patently don't.

Which is fine, but the fact that fundamentalist attitudes and beliefs are outlandishly ludicrous doesn't make less outlandish beliefs any more valid. Pointing at a group of people and saying "they believe in a magic forest, I only believe in a magic tree, therefore my beliefs are better than their beliefs" doesn't make it so. Just because fundamentalism is a bigger and easier target doesn't mean it should be the only target. Irrational, unsupported beliefs should be decried no matter how large or small they may be.

Let's be clear; all that justifies disagreement. It does not justify derision, insults and open contempt, which is the subject here.

I think it's my job here to educate people about modern Judaism, as opposed to proselytizing for it.

Unfortunately, you're on a debate forum where actually challenging claims is part and parcel of daily life. When you make a claim that cannot be justified by logic, evidence or reason, you should expect to be called on it, that's a fundamental part of debating.

Again, I am not talking about respectful disagreement and debate. See above.

But; I have also often found that the contempt toward fundamentalism, which may or may not be deserved (and I admit I share that contempt and have often expressed it, perhaps inappropriately) is very often extended to all theists of any variety whatever, and I think that is simply wrong.

Because it isn't really a contempt toward fundamentalism per se, but a demand for truth across the board.

I have never objected to that, and I'm not objecting to it now. I think that's clear enough.

Are you saying that contempt and disrespect for theists on the part of non-theists have never been evident on this board?

We have at least one member who openly admits to deliberately using mockery and derision as a tool in debate. Do you think that is appropriate?

It doesn't really matter to me whether you believe in a whole forest of magic trees or just one, having that irrational, unjustified belief is sufficient for questioning whether any belief in magic trees is valid.

And yet again, I am not objecting to respectful debate and disagreement.

I do not accept the thesis that rudeness, implied insults, personal disdain and general disrespect is only being directed at theists who violate the rules of civil debate and have it coming. All of those have often, and even routinely, been directed at me.

Then, forgive me for saying this, maybe you need to look in the mirror to figure out why. When you routinely dodge questions that are put to you and create strawmen claims about others, it's hardly surprising that you get a fair amount of disrespect. Respect is something that you earn, not something that you magically get because you want it.

No one has ever leveled those charges at me but you, and I have conclusively proven them false more than once.

Again: I will ask anyone who thinks that I "routinely dodge questions that are put to [me] and create strawmen claims about others" to come forward and say so. Here are links to the threads in question:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... highlight=

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... highlight=

Merely repeating your charges, which have been repeatedly proven untrue, will not magically make them true because you want them to be, either.

[JoeyKnothead]

I admit I have said some things within here that I'm sorry for, and I have learned a lot by being on these forums. Cnorman18, you've taught me a lot about what good religion can offer, and I will remember some of your posts for being well reasoned, and good lessons. I wish you the best in your future, and I hope you get all you seek.

I'm gonna quit coming by because I see a double standard about some of the things some say, specifically the Christian fundies. I've seen them say some really shameful things, and reproachment was only had after they were insulted back by others.

Christian fundies are so quick to condemn anyone who disagrees, and then cry foul when they get pushed back.

[McCulloch]

Christian fundies are so quick to condemn anyone who disagrees, and then cry foul when they get pushed back.

Isn't that what you expect? I count it as a victory when they answer reason with insult rather than with reason. Don't you?

[olavisjo]

That's sort of the problem though, you have a group of people who insist that they already have the truth and are unwilling to test their beliefs in order to see if they do, in fact, have the truth. When you start to insist that you're right and no amount of evidence to the contrary can prove you wrong, you're not debating, you're prosletyzing.

I admit that I have the truth and no amount of evidence to the contrary will ever change that. If your goal is to change me you will not succeed, I am not open to change, I am however open to learning and I have learned a lot about a group of very interesting people, who I am beginning to value more than even my Christian family.
My goal is to change you, yet I know that I do not have the power to do so, only God can do that, my job is only to try. No matter what happens, if we can still remain friends through it all, that would be a bonus.

[Beto]

If your goal is to change me you will not succeed, I am not open to change, I am however open to learning and I have learned a lot about a group of very interesting people, who I am beginning to value more than even my Christian family.

What can you hope to learn above the "truth", that you presume to already possess?

[Thought Criminal]

That's sort of the problem though, you have a group of people who insist that they already have the truth and are unwilling to test their beliefs in order to see if they do, in fact, have the truth. When you start to insist that you're right and no amount of evidence to the contrary can prove you wrong, you're not debating, you're prosletyzing.

I admit that I have the truth and no amount of evidence to the contrary will ever change that. If your goal is to change me you will not succeed, I am not open to change, I am however open to learning and I have learned a lot about a group of very interesting people, who I am beginning to value more than even my Christian family.
My goal is to change you, yet I know that I do not have the power to do so, only God can do that, my job is only to try. No matter what happens, if we can still remain friends through it all, that would be a bonus.

You just declared that your mind is closed and you are unwilling to debate. How exactly do you expect us to react?

TC

[olavisjo]

What can you hope to learn above the "truth", that you presume to already possess?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus is the truth, but there is a lot of details that I need to learn especially in the area of behavior.

You just declared that your mind is closed and you are unwilling to debate. How exactly do you expect us to react?

I never said that I am unwilling to debate, and if you don't make a similar declaration, I have every bit of incentive to continue debate or dialog or proselytizing. Are you willing to say that your mind is made up and you will not change?
As for your reaction, if you are here to change me, you may find that you are wasting your time and simply move on to others that may benefit from your debate or dialog or proselytizing.
This is the way it is, if I were to tell you that I have an open mind I would be lying. Even if I keep that fact to myself, I would be dishonest with you.

[Thought Criminal]

You just declared that your mind is closed and you are unwilling to debate. How exactly do you expect us to react?

I never said that I am unwilling to debate, and if you don't make a similar declaration, I have every bit of incentive to continue debate or dialog or proselytizing. Are you willing to say that your mind is made up and you will not change?
As for your reaction, if you are here to change me, you may find that you are wasting your time and simply move on to others that may benefit from your debate or dialog or proselytizing.
This is the way it is, if I were to tell you that I have an open mind I would be lying. Even if I keep that fact to myself, I would be dishonest with you.

If your mind is closed and you are unwilling to debate, you need to leave. Right now.

TC

[otseng]

If your mind is closed and you are unwilling to debate, you need to leave. Right now.

Moderator comment:

There is no need to tell someone they should leave the forum. If someone has not violated any rules, the person has the right as any other to participate here.