The Bible Denies the Divinity of Jesus

[mobkem]

This article contains the following seven arguments which prove that the Bible denies the divinity of Jesus:


1) None of the Bible’s Writers Believed That Jesus is God

2) Evidence From the Acts of the Apostles

3) Jesus is Not All-Powerful, and Not All-Knowing

4) The Greatest Commandment in the Bible

5) Paul Believed That Jesus is not God

6) Evidence from the Gospel of John

7) God and Jesus Are Two Separate Beings



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[Volbrigade]

Volbrigade wrote:

I hope I have addressed some of the very salient points presented by you, Cathar, and Goat -- I may be leaving out somebody -- in objection to my expression of the Christian faith.


Personally I have no objection to your expression of your Christian faith – my objection would be to any claims that it is the ONLY path to follow in order to live a life guided by loving kindness.

I think I was a little unclear here. I meant to convey "the salient objections to the Christian faith" -- and in particular my expression of that faith: not to anyone's objecting to my expressing that faith (which no one on this thread has -- with one arguable exception, handled nicely by the moderator -- who's name, forgive me, escapes me ).

One of my teachers was often asked this very question (or a very similar one) – in order to overcome those things which hold us back from ‘being perfect’ (as if we were not already perfect!) was it necessary to become a renunciate i.e. reject the world and its attractions in order to self realize. His answer was that even in renunciation the attraction to those things may remain and distract from the ‘true’ path. So it is not the wealth etc that is the issue it is the attraction to it.

The bottom line...it is not only possible but perhaps even necessary for some(most?) to live in the world AND overcome those limiting factors.

Bernee, I hope you're wrong about us being "already perfect". That would be a cause for despair, it seems to me.

I was listening to a brilliant Bible scholar who, in the midst of a lengthy digression on the book of Jude, ventured into a speculation on what the Antediluvian world might have been like -- a world markedly different from the one we now inhabit, that was directly linked to a time when man, and Creation, actually were "perfect." He referred to Adam's experience of reality as being "dimensionally different" than ours.

So clearly – for many the god concept is not fulfilling the need for meaning and legitimacy to the extent it may have – the afflictions you mentioned have always been a characteristic of the human experience. In fact having a ‘Christian ideal’ as a goal and falling short of the mark (or being told, or believing, one is) may even exacerbate these afflictions.

Yes, they have always been characteristic. What I was driving at was: why haven't our affluence and increased leisure time alleviated them? I think a strong case can be made that they have instead "exacerbate(d those) afflictions," in no small measure by the constant need to "keep up", "fit in", be competitive in the consumer game, etc.

Christ offers relief from all of that. He asks us to place our burdens on Him. He assures us that we will fall short of the mark, and that we will have trials and troubles in this world. We can be of good cheer, however -- He has overcome the world.

Speaking of "falling short of the mark": I like this quote from Adrian Rogers --

"The Church is the only organization besides the Hell's Angels where you have to admit what a bad person you are before you can join."

This is where you, IMHO, are wrong.

There certainly is the possibility of escape from self.

Why are we unhappy?

Because 99.9 per cent of everything we think, and of everything we do, is for our self — and there isn't one

It should be obvious that I believe that Christ is the escape from self.

A question: (with all due respect) If there is no such thing as a "self" -- who are you?

There are I suggest many paths up the mountain, all leading in the same direction, so it doesn’t matter which path you take. The only one wasting time is the one who runs around and around the mountain, telling everyone else that their path is wrong

It seems self-evident that some paths are obviously to be avoided, as they lead to destruction of self and/or others. So I think it does matter which path you take. I would amend your comment to say that there are infinite, and individual, paths to belief in Christ -- "the narrow door" -- and a wide, well-trodden path, "easy underfoot," that leads to destruction.

I tend to agree with you about those running around "telling everyone else that their path is wrong."

[bernee51]

I think I was a little unclear here. I meant to convey "the salient objections to the Christian faith" -- and in particular my expression of that faith: not to anyone's objecting to my expressing that faith (which no one on this thread has -- with one arguable exception, handled nicely by the moderator -- who's name, forgive me, escapes me ).

This form of exchange can lead to misunderstandings, body language, facial expression etc contributes up to 75% (I seem to recall) in inter personal communications.

That said there are issues I do have with the Christian faith, notably its salvation doctrines, the fact that it seeks to convert based on the commands of scripture– often to the detriment of its targets and the divisiveness inherent in any religion of exclusion.

One of my teachers was often asked this very question (or a very similar one) – in order to overcome those things which hold us back from ‘being perfect’ (as if we were not already perfect!) was it necessary to become a renunciate i.e. reject the world and its attractions in order to self realize. His answer was that even in renunciation the attraction to those things may remain and distract from the ‘true’ path. So it is not the wealth etc that is the issue it is the attraction to it.

The bottom line...it is not only possible but perhaps even necessary for some(most?) to live in the world AND overcome those limiting factors.

Bernee, I hope you're wrong about us being "already perfect". That would be a cause for despair, it seems to me.

There is ‘logical’ perfection – as mentioned previously I hold that we are emergent beings in an emergent universe. If we (and the universe) are in state of constant emergence then we are only as we can be at any given moment. Anything that is ‘only as it can be’ is, in my understanding of the term, perfect.

Then we have ‘perfection in practice’ which no one (or very few if any) achieve. To realize (make real) perfection one must live totally ‘in the now’. As we communicate with the universe at large through our relationships, our sense of self being a construct built around these relationships, and relationships, by their very nature are built on past experience and future anticipations i.e. anything but the present moment – we are very much imperfect beings – as long as we hold fast to our sense of an individual self.

I was listening to a brilliant Bible scholar who, in the midst of a lengthy digression on the book of Jude, ventured into a speculation on what the Antediluvian world might have been like -- a world markedly different from the one we now inhabit, that was directly linked to a time when man, and Creation, actually were "perfect." He referred to Adam's experience of reality as being "dimensionally different" than ours.

Interesting.
Do you think the world is perfect for non sentient beings, or rather do you imagine that, for example, a lion would think its world as anything other than just ‘being’? A case of ‘presentational immediacy’?

Prior to the ‘fall’, the ‘loss of innocence’, the ‘eating of the fruit of the tree’ – before mankind evolved self reflectivity and invented gods – that is exactly what we were – perfect creatures in a perfect world.

So clearly – for many the god concept is not fulfilling the need for meaning and legitimacy to the extent it may have – the afflictions you mentioned have always been a characteristic of the human experience. In fact having a ‘Christian ideal’ as a goal and falling short of the mark (or being told, or believing, one is) may even exacerbate these afflictions.

Yes, they have always been characteristic. What I was driving at was: why haven't our affluence and increased leisure time alleviated them? I think a strong case can be made that they have instead "exacerbate(d those) afflictions," in no small measure by the constant need to "keep up", "fit in", be competitive in the consumer game, etc.

I would agree – mass media or how it generally manifests, i.e. as a vehicle to transmit the ‘memes’ which contribute to the ‘afflictions’ is designed to support the sense of an individual self. Anything that supports the illusion is contributing to the suffering which naturally comes from that illusion.

Christ offers relief from all of that. He asks us to place our burdens on Him. He assures us that we will fall short of the mark, and that we will have trials and troubles in this world. We can be of good cheer, however -- He has overcome the world.

Until that belief is realised (made real) it is of no use. How many do you know who can ‘participate joyfully amidst the sorrows of the world’ as Joseph Campbell so eloquently put it?

Speaking of "falling short of the mark": I like this quote from Adrian Rogers --
"The Church is the only organization besides the Hell's Angels where you have to admit what a bad person you are before you can join."

Good one...I also like “what do you get when you cross a Hell’s Angel and a SDA?� – Someone who knocks on your door on a Saturday morning and tells you to f**k off.

This is where you, IMHO, are wrong.
There certainly is the possibility of escape from self.
Why are we unhappy?
Because 99.9 per cent of everything we think, and of everything we do, is for our self — and there isn't one

It should be obvious that I believe that Christ is the escape from self.
A question: (with all due respect) If there is no such thing as a "self" -- who are you?

“Who am I?� A very good question – one I ask myself everyday in my practice.

The short answer – I am consciousness manifest.

Or as my signature puts it: "When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

It seems self-evident that some paths are obviously to be avoided, as they lead to destruction of self and/or others.

The destruction of self, and realization of Self, is the summit of the seemingly unscalable mountain that is human existence.

So I think it does matter which path you take. I would amend your comment to say that there are infinite, and individual, paths to belief in Christ -- "the narrow door" -- and a wide, well-trodden path, "easy underfoot," that leads to destruction.

This still amounts to claiming there is only one path.