Religeon

[Not Brainwashed]

Im am From Essex in England and i do not believe in God, I do see how i can believe something i cannot see, feel, smell etc. Can anybody please explain how you do believe in " God "?
Thanks

[realthinker]

Im am From Essex in England and i do not believe in God, I do see how i can believe something i cannot see, feel, smell etc. Can anybody please explain how you do believe in " God "?
Thanks

Man is a reasoning being, and to reason beyond the immediate sensory input, one requires abstraction. We must keep ideas that support the reasoned decisions we make every day. Part of Man's success is its ability to transmit and accumulate ideas that have not originated within one's self. It is our history and our culture.

Because Man reasons, the ideas we each keep are, for the most part, logically coherent. As a set they are logically sound. That does not, however, mean that they are all genuinely true. Some of our ideas are directly corresponding to observable phenomenon. Others are derived from those correspondent ideas. Some are accepted from others. In order to be acceptable, outside ideas must be coherent with our other ideas that we hold true.

Because of ignorance, and because many ideas regarding religion have no real negative consequence with regard to the day-to-day and generational success of the individuals holding them, religious ideas have grown to be part of the coherent set of ideas held by many people. Because such ideas have been shared widely, and because their shared belief has helped to build successful social structures, religion has flourished.

None of that, however, means that religious ideas are true at all. That's the case for other very mainstream ideas as well, though. Superstitions of all sorts are examples. So are many political and social ideas.

Bottom line, people believe in religion because there is no harm in it, and because it makes them a cooperative, productive member of their society. Religion has, as a whole, been a good thing. That doesn't mean it's true.

[beankitty]

Can you be certain that personal experiences you attribute to the "gods" are not your own mental processes?

Sometimes.

Can you identify the "gods"?
What do you mean? In what way?

Are your experiences transferable to others?
Yes, some of them.

[beankitty]

Because of ignorance,

Are you saying that ignorance is the "cause" and religion would be the "effect"?

[Zzyzx]

.

Can you be certain that personal experiences you attribute to the "gods" are not your own mental processes?

Sometimes.

Can you show exactly how can it be determined with certainty that "god experiences" are "sometimes" NOT your own mental processes? HOW do you know that? How can you distinguish with certainty that any experience or vision or whatever was not created by your own mind?

If people ingest certain substances it is likely that they will have strange visions. Also under extreme stress people often report “visions�. Are those the work of “gods� or are they self-created? How do you know?

Can you be certain that the “prophets� did not ingest mind-altering substances prior to having “visions�?

Can you identify the "gods"?

What do you mean? In what way?

Can you state with certainty which of the thousands of gods available was involved in any "god experience"? How could anyone be certain that such an experience was not the work of "Satan" or one of the other gods?

No one “god� has any claim to exclusivity of being considered “divine� because humans have loved, feared and/or worshiped literally thousands of “gods� – many of them are currently popular. An Internet search for “list of gods� will produce lists of thousands of current or former “gods�. Anyone is free to take their pick or to look for their favorite “god� among the others.

The worshipers of each god tend to think that their favorite is very real – and all others are false or imaginary.

What all “gods� have in common is that their existence cannot be demonstrated. I would think that some of the thousands could be shown to be real (if they are anything more than products of human imagination) – but none has been shown to be any more real than any other.

Are your experiences transferable to others?

Yes, some of them.

Can you demonstrate how others are able to experience your experiences?

Are you saying that you can tell others about your experiences and convince them to believe that what you experienced was real? If so, that is NOT transferring the experience to others – it is simply telling them a story that they choose to believe. They do NOT experience what you experienced (or thought you did).

[realthinker]

Because of ignorance,

Are you saying that ignorance is the "cause" and religion would be the "effect"?

Among many effects, yes.

[beankitty]

Can you show exactly how can it be determined with certainty that "god experiences" are "sometimes" NOT your own mental processes? HOW do you know that?

No. That's a silly question, nothing is "certain."

How can you distinguish with certainty that any experience or vision or whatever was not created by your own mind?

It helps when others share the same experience. But maybe they are figments of my imagination. Maybe I am creating you with my own mind.

If people ingest certain substances it is likely that they will have strange visions. Also under extreme stress people often report “visions�. Are those the work of “gods� or are they self-created? How do you know?

Yes, this happens a lot. Fossilized feces shows use of hallucinogenic plants in our most ancient ancestors. So, how about the ones who don't ingest said substances?

Can you be certain that the “prophets� did not ingest mind-altering substances prior to having “visions�?

Of course not, again, how can you be certain about anything? Though it seems unlikely that Hesiod, for example, was high from substances when he wrote Theogony.

However, many cultures have specifically used mind-altering substances as a means of communicating with the Divine. After all, is it not just one of the many ways of reaching an altered state of consciousness, alongside dance.. chanting.. meditation, etc? To enter an altered state makes it easier to communicate with God.


Can you state with certainty which of the thousands of gods available was involved in any "god experience"?

No way! I find identifying the proper God quite the challenge. That's part of what makes it fun.

How could anyone be certain that such an experience was not the work of "Satan" or one of the other gods?

We can't, so it's a good idea not to assume. Asking questions again and again is the way to Truth.

No one “god� has any claim to exclusivity of being considered “divine� because humans have loved, feared and/or worshiped literally thousands of “gods� – many of them are currently popular. An Internet search for “list of gods� will produce lists of thousands of current or former “gods�. Anyone is free to take their pick or to look for their favorite “god� among the others.

The worshipers of each god tend to think that their favorite is very real – and all others are false or imaginary.

Yeah. This is not really a problem for me though because I believe in the existence of all the Gods.

What all “gods� have in common is that their existence cannot be demonstrated. I would think that some of the thousands could be shown to be real (if they are anything more than products of human imagination) –

The only God people try to "prove" is the Judaeo-Christian one. I don't see anyone looking for evidence of, say, Thanatos... do you?

but none has been shown to be any more real than any other.

I don't know about you, but the myths of Pan seem far more realistic to me than say, the myths of JHVH.

Are you saying that you can tell others about your experiences and convince them to believe that what you experienced was real? If so, that is NOT transferring the experience to others – it is simply telling them a story that they choose to believe.

Obviously. I would be weary of those trying to pass off stories of paranormal experiences. I wasn't talking about story-time. The only people I can make up a bunch of stories to and convince them they're real is people of lower intelligence.

I have demonstrated magic with my atheist lovers and friends. That is how I am able to further believe in the validity of my own experiences.

[Zzyzx]

.

Can you show exactly how can it be determined with certainty that "god experiences" are "sometimes" NOT your own mental processes? HOW do you know that?

No. That's a silly question, nothing is "certain."

Agreed. Therefore, we should not speak as though we are certain about things that we cannot know – such as invisible super beings. If (since) the “god experiences� can be created in our mind by stress, sensory deprivation, chemical substances, electrical impulses, and possibly other influences, we CANNOT claim to know that any such experiences are “real� and not our own mental processes.

How can you distinguish with certainty that any experience or vision or whatever was not created by your own mind?

It helps when others share the same experience.

Yes, it may help to have others share the experience – but shared experience is not any firm indication of truth. You and I can be similarly deceived by what we experience or misinterpret what we experience.

But maybe they are figments of my imagination.

That is an alternative worthy of consideration. I do not claim that it is correct or incorrect – only that it is a viable alternative.

Maybe I am creating you with my own mind.

Yes, and maybe I am “Satan� – or maybe you are – or maybe devils and gods are figments of imagination.

I prefer to think that you and I exist in the real world as human beings. I use a process of elimination to decide that you are real (though not necessarily really who your on-line persona might seem).

If people ingest certain substances it is likely that they will have strange visions. Also under extreme stress people often report “visions�. Are those the work of “gods� or are they self-created? How do you know?

Yes, this happens a lot. Fossilized feces shows use of hallucinogenic plants in our most ancient ancestors. So, how about the ones who don't ingest said substances?

I do not know who does and who does not use mind-altering substances among those around me – much less those who are long since dead. The practice is common now and was evidently common in the past.

An important consideration is that hallucinogens cannot be ruled out in ANY reported “visions� – even if a person claims that no such substances were involved.

Can you be certain that the “prophets� did not ingest mind-altering substances prior to having “visions�?

Of course not, again, how can you be certain about anything?

We cannot be certain about much beyond some personal experience, the certainty of change, and the inevitability of death. I am certain that I am sitting at a computer typing, that I will not continue doing so indefinitely, and that one day I shall die.

However, there are many things that I have learned about the real world I inhabit that I am reasonably certain (not absolutely certain) are correct. For instance, I am reasonably certain that an apple will fall toward the center of the Earth if I release it in the atmosphere and it is not acted upon by forces that might alter its trajectory or velocity.

I am also reasonably certain that the sun will become visible from my location in approximately eight hours unless obscured by atmospheric conditions.

I am very UN-certain that invisible supernatural beings exist or that they influence human affairs.

Though it seems unlikely that Hesiod, for example, was high from substances when he wrote Theogony.

What makes you think so?

However, many cultures have specifically used mind-altering substances as a means of communicating with the Divine. After all, is it not just one of the many ways of reaching an altered state of consciousness, alongside dance.. chanting.. meditation, etc? To enter an altered state makes it easier to communicate with God.

Why do you claim that any of the above represent “communication with god�? Can you demonstrate that the statement is true?

Can you state with certainty which of the thousands of gods available was involved in any "god experience"?

No way! I find identifying the proper God quite the challenge. That's part of what makes it fun.

How does one go about identifying “the proper god�? What criteria are used to guide thinking and decisions?

How could anyone be certain that such an experience was not the work of "Satan" or one of the other gods?

We can't, so it's a good idea not to assume. Asking questions again and again is the way to Truth.

What questions could you ask that a cleaver but evil supernatural being (a “Satan� or equivalent if such things existed) could not handle readily in a convincing way? Wouldn’t such a being be capable of fooling you?

The worshipers of each god tend to think that their favorite is very real – and all others are false or imaginary.

Yeah. This is not really a problem for me though because I believe in the existence of all the Gods.

I have not had the pleasure previously of meeting anyone who believed in the existence of all the gods. It must keep one busy.

What all “gods� have in common is that their existence cannot be demonstrated. I would think that some of the thousands could be shown to be real (if they are anything more than products of human imagination) –

The only God people try to "prove" is the Judaeo-Christian one. I don't see anyone looking for evidence of, say, Thanatos... do you?

I make no claim about anyone attempting to show evidence regarding any gods. I merely note that evidence is lacking.

but none has been shown to be any more real than any other.

I don't know about you, but the myths of Pan seem far more realistic to me than say, the myths of JHVH.

What “seems far more realistic� is VERY different from “shown to be any more real than any other�.

A good fiction may “seem to be realistic�. That is not a valid test of truth.

Are you saying that you can tell others about your experiences and convince them to believe that what you experienced was real? If so, that is NOT transferring the experience to others – it is simply telling them a story that they choose to believe.

Obviously. I would be weary of those trying to pass off stories of paranormal experiences. I wasn't talking about story-time. The only people I can make up a bunch of stories to and convince them they're real is people of lower intelligence.

I disagree. Some highly intelligent people may be easily convinced. People who can be easily convinced are known as gullible. Some people of “modest intelligence� may be very difficult to convince or dupe. Some people of “relatively low intelligence� may be all but impossible to sway from their a priori ideas.

I have demonstrated magic with my atheist lovers and friends. That is how I am able to further believe in the validity of my own experiences.

Can you explain further the “magic� which you have demonstrated?

[beankitty]

Agreed. Therefore, we should not speak as though we are certain about things that we cannot know – such as invisible super beings. If (since) the “god experiences� can be created in our mind by stress, sensory deprivation, chemical substances, electrical impulses, and possibly other influences, we CANNOT claim to know that any such experiences are “real� and not our own mental processes.

By that logic, we can't claim any experiences are "real."


Yes, it may help to have others share the experience – but shared experience is not any firm indication of truth. You and I can be similarly deceived by what we experience or misinterpret what we experience.

Yeah, but it is truth for me. Is that not what is important here? All humans have different personal truths. There is no real truth.

Yes, and maybe I am “Satan� – or maybe you are – or maybe devils and gods are figments of imagination.

Sure. Philosophy is fun, I enjoy it as well. Maybe devils and gods aren't figments of imagination? I do not believe in devils/Satan but you never know!

An important consideration is that hallucinogens cannot be ruled out in ANY reported “visions� – even if a person claims that no such substances were involved.

Right, but that is only one alternative.

We cannot be certain about much beyond some personal experience, the certainty of change, and the inevitability of death. I am certain that I am sitting at a computer typing, that I will not continue doing so indefinitely, and that one day I shall die.

However, there are many things that I have learned about the real world I inhabit that I am reasonably certain (not absolutely certain) are correct. For instance, I am reasonably certain that an apple will fall toward the center of the Earth if I release it in the atmosphere and it is not acted upon by forces that might alter its trajectory or velocity.

I am also reasonably certain that the sun will become visible from my location in approximately eight hours unless obscured by atmospheric conditions.

I am very UN-certain that invisible supernatural beings exist or that they influence human affairs.

I follow Science as well. I just choose to take it further. If Science were able to explain everything, we may as well call it God. It doesn't make much sense to me anymore that there is only that which can be measured through use of our immediate senses. For such a complex Universe, that is far too limiting...

Though it seems unlikely that Hesiod, for example, was high from substances when he wrote Theogony.

What makes you think so?

I haven't noticed drug-use mentioned at all in that era. Have you? I would like to know, either way.

Why do you claim that any of the above represent “communication with god�? Can you demonstrate that the statement is true?

Because that is how various cultures/religions have justified, explained, or labeled said practices. It's not a personal thing, just an anthropological explanation.

How does one go about identifying “the proper god�? What criteria are used to guide thinking and decisions?

That would vary from person to person. You have to remember that this is not an equation, not a measurement of sorts - no steps, no guide, maybe not even a destination.

What questions could you ask that a cleaver but evil supernatural being (a “Satan� or equivalent if such things existed) could not handle readily in a convincing way? Wouldn’t such a being be capable of fooling you?

Yes. That would be lovely.

I have not had the pleasure previously of meeting anyone who believed in the existence of all the gods. It must keep one busy.

Ha! Indeed it does.

I make no claim about anyone attempting to show evidence regarding any gods. I merely note that evidence is lacking.

Regardless, science and spirituality need to be kept separate. Tons of people out there swear by psychics, and astrology. Astrology especially has its hardcore followers, thousands of books, and day-by-day guides on how to live life based on your astrological forecast. I don't believe in Astrology, or psychics, but it works for TONS of people. Therefore, it is true for them, and that's all that matters. That is evidence enough. It is part of their reality, not ours. We all have separate realities.

What “seems far more realistic� is VERY different from “shown to be any more real than any other�.

A good fiction may “seem to be realistic�. That is not a valid test of truth.

Validity and truth are relative to an individual, unless we are talking about things like gravity, which is universal truth.

I disagree. Some highly intelligent people may be easily convinced. People who can be easily convinced are known as gullible. Some people of “modest intelligence� may be very difficult to convince or dupe. Some people of “relatively low intelligence� may be all but impossible to sway from their a priori ideas.

Sorry, wrong choice of words.

Can you explain further the “magic� which you have demonstrated?

I may as well write a book if I were to do that, so no, I can't on here. There are many magic books out there, though.

[Goat]

Agreed. Therefore, we should not speak as though we are certain about things that we cannot know – such as invisible super beings. If (since) the “god experiences� can be created in our mind by stress, sensory deprivation, chemical substances, electrical impulses, and possibly other influences, we CANNOT claim to know that any such experiences are “real� and not our own mental processes.

By that logic, we can't claim any experiences are "real."

Yet, when we have multiple people experiencing the same event the same way independently (not influenced by each others opinion and stories), we can determine that there was a commonality in their experience. The more people
that experience the same things at the same time, the more likely that is 'reality'. This also increases if there are mechanical ways to detect the phenomenon, that is independent of the brain.

[Zzyzx]

.

Agreed. Therefore, we should not speak as though we are certain about things that we cannot know – such as invisible super beings. If (since) the “god experiences� can be created in our mind by stress, sensory deprivation, chemical substances, electrical impulses, and possibly other influences, we CANNOT claim to know that any such experiences are “real� and not our own mental processes.

By that logic, we can't claim any experiences are "real."

You are free to decide that; however, I do not do so. I am satisfied that I am sitting at a computer, that I see a forest through the window, and that I just ate breakfast.

On the other hand, I do not regard dreams as real events. Between the reality of sitting at the computer and the dream state might be a continuum of experiences of varying degrees of being “real�.

I make no attempt to convince others that they should consider my personal experiences to be “real�.

Yes, it may help to have others share the experience – but shared experience is not any firm indication of truth. You and I can be similarly deceived by what we experience or misinterpret what we experience.

Yeah, but it is truth for me. Is that not what is important here? All humans have different personal truths. There is no real truth.

All humans share some “truth�. Every human is born, breathes while alive, and dies – and there may be more shared truth and experience.

Yes, and maybe I am “Satan� – or maybe you are – or maybe devils and gods are figments of imagination.

Sure. Philosophy is fun, I enjoy it as well. Maybe devils and gods aren't figments of imagination? I do not believe in devils/Satan but you never know!

Yes, and maybe leprechauns and Santa Claus are real too – just as gods and spirits may be real.

An important consideration is that hallucinogens cannot be ruled out in ANY reported “visions� – even if a person claims that no such substances were involved.

Right, but that is only one alternative.

Exactly. That is one alternative of many – none of which has been shown to be true. Therefore, we should not conclude that we know what occurred thousands of years ago.

We cannot be certain about much beyond some personal experience, the certainty of change, and the inevitability of death. I am certain that I am sitting at a computer typing, that I will not continue doing so indefinitely, and that one day I shall die.
However, there are many things that I have learned about the real world I inhabit that I am reasonably certain (not absolutely certain) are correct. For instance, I am reasonably certain that an apple will fall toward the center of the Earth if I release it in the atmosphere and it is not acted upon by forces that might alter its trajectory or velocity.

I am also reasonably certain that the sun will become visible from my location in approximately eight hours unless obscured by atmospheric conditions.

I am very UN-certain that invisible supernatural beings exist or that they influence human affairs.

I follow Science as well.

I do not “follow� science. I formally studied Earth science and taught that field at college / university level.

What I spoke of above is personal experience and observation – nothing particularly scientific. One need not study science or be aware of science in order to expect “sunrise� or falling objects.

I just choose to take it further.

The “further� is nothing more than speculation – unless you have evidence upon which to base conclusions.

If Science were able to explain everything, we may as well call it God.

Perhaps by some definitions of “god� that would be true. However, it is moot since “explain everything� is infinite.

What definition of “god� do you use in this discussion?

It doesn't make much sense to me anymore that there is only that which can be measured through use of our immediate senses. For such a complex Universe, that is far too limiting.

What means of discovering and learning about anything beyond what “can be measured through use of our immediate senses�?

Can you demonstrate that any such learning is anything more than imagination?

Though it seems unlikely that Hesiod, for example, was high from substances when he wrote Theogony.

What makes you think so?

I haven't noticed drug-use mentioned at all in that era. Have you? I would like to know, either way.

I have no information regarding whether drugs were used in that era. If you would like to know about drug use in any era it is your responsibility to do the necessary research and learn about the subject if possible.

Does lack of mention of drugs indicate to you that drugs were not used? Can you make such a decision without any further information?

My position would be that we have no way of knowing whether Hesiod was high while writing or not. In the absence of information I would NOT take a negative position or a positive position. “I don’t know� works fine in those instances. Claiming to know is dishonest.

Why do you claim that any of the above represent “communication with god�? Can you demonstrate that the statement is true?

Because that is how various cultures/religions have justified, explained, or labeled said practices. It's not a personal thing, just an anthropological explanation.

I can accept that many individuals, organizations and societies BELIEVE that they communicate with gods. However, I do not accept that such things actually occur – for lack of evidence.

How does one go about identifying “the proper god�? What criteria are used to guide thinking and decisions?

That would vary from person to person. You have to remember that this is not an equation, not a measurement of sorts - no steps, no guide, maybe not even a destination.

By your criteria there is no such thing as a “proper god� – but simply a concept that each individual forms in their mind. Correct?

What questions could you ask that a cleaver but evil supernatural being (a “Satan� or equivalent if such things existed) could not handle readily in a convincing way? Wouldn’t such a being be capable of fooling you?

Yes. That would be lovely.

You ducked the question. What questions could you ask that a cleaver but evil supernatural being (a “Satan� or equivalent if such things existed) could not handle readily in a convincing way?

I do not think that you can devise any set of questions that would serve to identify an imposter “evil spirit�.

I have not had the pleasure previously of meeting anyone who believed in the existence of all the gods. It must keep one busy.

Ha! Indeed it does:

Are you being silly or do you actually believe that all of the thousands of “gods� actually exist? If the latter, kindly expand on that subject. If the former that is not ethical debate.

I make no claim about anyone attempting to show evidence regarding any gods. I merely note that evidence is lacking.

Regardless, science and spirituality need to be kept separate.

I am 100% in favor of that. Science should stay in the real world and spirituality should stay in individual private world (or in church for those who are dissatisfied keeping spirituality personal and private).

Tons of people out there swear by psychics, and astrology. Astrology especially has its hardcore followers, thousands of books, and day-by-day guides on how to live life based on your astrological forecast.

Yes, those “beliefs� have quite a following. I have not encountered anyone who worked in scientific fields who believed that psychics and astrology were valid.

I don't believe in Astrology, or psychics, but it works for TONS of people.

HOW, exactly, does astrology (or psychics) “WORK� for anyone? What does that mean?

Therefore, it is true for them, and that's all that matters.

What does “true for them� mean?

That is evidence enough.

That may be “evidence enough� if the matter is private and personal; however, if it is presented to others as truth more than a claim is required to be credible.

Of course, for those who have no intent to be credible that is unimportant. In Internet debate all we have is our credibility – and the respect that earns from others.

It is part of their reality, not ours. We all have separate realities.

We all share some realities in the real world we inhabit. There ARE factors about the Earth and its environments that we all exist within.

People may differ in what they REGARD as reality; however, that is a matter of perception and interpretation of the real world – including mental processes.

What “seems far more realistic� is VERY different from “shown to be any more real than any other�.

A good fiction may “seem to be realistic�. That is not a valid test of truth.

Validity and truth are relative to an individual, unless we are talking about things like gravity, which is universal truth.

Can a human have an “individual truth� that includes an ability to breathe water instead of air – or to fly unassisted – or to live without eating or drinking – or to move a mountain?

Again, we are residents of the real world which presents certain realities with which we must deal to survive.

Can you explain further the “magic� which you have demonstrated?

I may as well write a book if I were to do that, so no, I can't on here. There are many magic books out there, though.

If you are unwilling to substantiate claims of performing “magic� it is unethical to attempt to make such claims in debate.

I am aware that there are many books concerning what is known as “magic� (which I define as “the art of producing illusions�). One of the early books that related magic tricks is known by some as “the bible� (available in 100+ different versions).

A common feature of magical tricks is that they cannot be demonstrated under conditions that preclude illusion and fraud. Claims of magic are fairly common. Demonstrations are not.

I do not doubt that you think that you can perform magic.