What is the point?

[cnorman18]

In response to a PM from a friend:

I'm losing interest in the forum, X, and for a number of reasons. First, and probably foremost, I'm not about defending "theism" in general. I'm a Jew, and I speak for Judaism--and not for Christianity, especially the fundamentalist sort.

I'm a polite kind of guy, and it's difficult to continue to avoid observing openly that most of the Christians here are schnooks. I'm incredibly, extremely, horribly tired of being lumped in with them, and even more tired of having to educate every damn atheist and non-theist that comes down the pike from the ground up on why Judaism is different, and to what extent--and, even more, of having to overcome the huge hump, for them, of the bare fact of belief in a God when that aspect of my religion is almost peripheral.

As you know, I don't play the prove-there's-a-God game, but that seems to be the only game anybody wants to play here. I'd like to get past that question, but the atheists won't let me and the Christians, frankly, aren't generally worth my time since that question of bare belief is about all we agree on. I'm agnostic on the question of an afterlife, for instance, and to most of them, there's no other point to religion.

I'm not saying you're doing this or ever have, X, but one of the aspects of the forum that I'm really beginning to despise is the unexamined assumption on the part of virtually all atheists--present company excepted--that atheism is the inevitable and unavoidable conclusion of any mature and intelligent mind. It's rather like the assumption in the political world that anyone who is not a flaming leftwinger is a benighted moron. It's tiresome, it's an enormous pain in the butt to overcome (because it's a prejudice and not a reasoned conclusion), and it's BORING. Trying to find an atheist on this forum who is even willing to consider the possibility that belief in God is not, at some level, evidence of mental impairment or immaturity is even harder than finding an intelligent and articulate theist. How do you debate somebody who takes it as an inarguable given that you are an idiot? How do you discuss something as complex and nuanced as Jewish ethics, history and theology with someone who dismisses that whole universe of thought as a childish and insignificant belief in "invisible super beings" or equivalent to a belief in leprechauns and unicorns?

I have had some very frustrating debate experiences on the board, and few if any rewarding ones. Just when I think we're making some progress, I find myself, once again, put in the same box as the fundies merely because I believe in God, and I have to start from scratch with yet another poster. A few dozen exchanges (and hours of writing) later, I find that layers of wrong (and in any other context, bigoted) assumptions are still firmly in place.

You think fundamentalists are hard to reason with? Try convincing a militant atheist that there is or ever has been any value or truth to religion at all. Not all the bigots and haters are on the theist side here, but try convincing anyone on the other side of that.

I realize the presence of so many fundamentalists makes my job even harder, but from my point of view, it just makes my job pointless. I'd like to make the case that there's such a thing as intelligent and rational religious belief; but the atheists think that plainly impossible, and the fundies are hard at work proving them right. Why bother?

It's been so long since I've seen a thread where I couldn't predict the conversation ten exchanges into the future, I don't remember what it's like. Also: My last five or six cogent, on-point and intelligent contributions to various threads have been utterly ignored by all parties, as if they were never posted. Again, what's the point?

I would LOVE to talk about Judaism and all the things that make it unique and admirable. What are my chances of being able to do that if, every single time, I have to deal with "but how do you know there's a God in the first place?" and the discussion never, ever, moves off that question? I'd rather catch up on my sleep.

Maybe I'll post this as a new thread. Watch what happens if I do:

"But how do you know/can you prove/establish as fact/show evidence that there is a God in the first place?"

Zzzzz...

[Cathar1950]

.

I've been asking for months now for someone to tell me how an ordinary person could prove the existence of God here on this forum.

It can’t be done on the forum or in life. Gods are not provable or disprovable.

Precisely my point.

How would they or anyone prove the existence of God outside this forum?
I personally don't think it can be proven. I think this is even a more difficult task for the believer especially one that has an image or model of God that is outside time and space. If you define the universe as everything then any God or gods would by definition be part of the Universe.
I tend to think God is experienced even if we call God or gods a human construct.
Not only is it personally experienced but it is shared and transmitted and expressed through out languages and cultures. But it is going to be different for each. Like Christianity it is more appropriate to think of Christianities and Judaism as Judaisms. Christians will call other Christians all kind of things if they disagree, anything from Satan to Heretic. Granted Jews were doing it before Christians but both could easily be seem as uncivil where pagans are often more accepting of others. Much of Judaisms have matured where despite their differences the are able to accept each others as kinsmen for even the adopted. Christians that were persecuted were a minority and there never was that much of an assault on the typical believer, they most took out the leaders. Some couldn't wait to die and refused help or opportunities to save their lives almost begging to be killed for Christ. There were report of riots over sacrificed meat sold in markets and probably seemed as thoughtless and distasteful as demonstrations against homosexuals at funerals. Sure Nero had his fun but it could have been any group as the content of the religion was largely irrelevant. They did a much better job of beating each other up. I tend to see faith as faithfulness which is shared by some Quakers, Mennonites and others. I don't think proof is as useful as living the religion. Most cults get their new members from their friends and family which seems to have been a pattern practiced by early Christians where many experiments in practice, living and faithfulness occurred. I am getting tired and my pills are kicking in so I am wonder what my point was and figure it is time for bed.

[Nick_A]

Norm

And while we're at it, you have a lot of nerve asking if I'm willing to "not judge" Christianity. I never have; my critical remarks here were, and have always been, directed at individual Christians and never at tne faith itself. You, on the other hand, seem to feel qualified to make pronouncements about "Christendom" and "degraded Judaism." speaking of hypocrisy, you might want to pull that log out of your own eye before looking for a nonexistent speck in mine.

There is nothing noble about being ignorant of relative religious quality. To deny the levels of quality in Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. only prevents one from appreciating them rightly.

Your concern seems to be with secular Judaism, its outer expression which is OK for you. I prefer to appreciate the inner journey of Judaism which I doubt those like Abraham Foxman have a clue about.

For example: Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz is quoted in this book as saying:

http://www.amazon.com/ Inner-Journey-Tradition-PARABOLA-Anthology /dp /1596750154 /ref=pd_bbs_sr_2 ?ie=UTF8 &s=books &qid=1197604229 &sr=1-2

"......There are many Jewish ways of becoming a "vessel." Another called it becoming a violin that can be played upon. I have to do all the tuning of the violin and only then will it be fit to play. What can one get from an imperfectly prepared instrument? Some people say that the whole of what Judaism is about is a way of preparing body and soul for having this ability."

This is ancient understanding and it is the same with Plato and with esoteric Christianity. IMO it would only be complete ignorance if I associated the quality of the Rabbi's spiritual depth with those like Foxman. Frankly I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn for those that do.

[alexiarose]

I am very sorry you feel this way cnorman. I admit to not having all the answers, or even some at this point. I am on very shaky grounds right now but I would like to believe that our Gods are one and the same. Ok, so like, before you bite my head like completely off my shoulders here, let me say that my belief is one of respect, not of some meanness. I hope you find some sort of happiness.

[cnorman18]

I am very sorry you feel this way cnorman. I admit to not having all the answers, or even some at this point. I am on very shaky grounds right now but I would like to believe that our Gods are one and the same. Ok, so like, before you bite my head like completely off my shoulders here, let me say that my belief is one of respect, not of some meanness. I hope you find some sort of happiness.

Hey, Lexie, don't make too much of this. I'm just ticked at some practices on the forum, not at life in general.

Anyone who believes in one good God believes in the same God I do. His name doesn't matter. He has many.

As far as finding happiness--well, I think I have. I thought you knew about that....?