Madder root dyes (Alizarin and Purpurin), gum, a hydrous oxide mordant, cotton fibers and significant levels of vanillin (4-hydroxy-3-methoxybenzaldehyde) have been found in the carbon 14 sample area and not anywhere else on the Shroud. The startling conclusion is that what was radiocarbon dated was chemically unlike the rest of the cloth. Thus it was an invalid sample.
The non-image cloth typically shows weak fluorescence (upper right). When image appears on the cloth, it quenches the fluorescence and gives it a brown color (see "Hands" below). The small, triangular, white area is where the Raes sample was cut in 1973. The radiocarbon sample was cut upward from there about 1 cm to the right of the seam and about 7 cm long. The area where the radiocarbon sample was taken is relatively dark, a fact that is not the result of dirt, image color, or scorching. The cloth is much less fluorescent in that area, brightening into more typical fluorescence to the right. The photograph proves that the radiocarbon area has a different chemical composition than the main part of the cloth. This was obviously not considered before the sample was cut.
Raes and radiocarbon yarn show colored encrustations on their surfaces. Some sections of medulla contain some of the material, showing that it had been able to flow by capillary attraction as a liquid. The encrustation is not removed by nonpolar solvents, but it swells and dissolves in water.
This photomicrograph shows several fibers from the center of the radiocarbon sample in water. The gum is swelling and slowly detaching from the fibers. Many red alizarin/mordant lakes can be seen, and yellow dye is in solution in the gum. Several cotton fibers are visible, a situation unique to the radiocarbon samples.
There was absolutely no encrustation on either the Holland cloth or fibers from the main part of the Shroud.
Al Adler had found large amounts of aluminum in yarn segments from the radiocarbon sample, up to 2%, by energy-dispersive x-ray analysis. I found that the radiocarbon sample was uniquely coated with a plant gum (probably gum Arabic), a hydrous aluminum oxide mordant (the aluminum found by Adler), and Madder root dye (alizarin and purpurin). Nothing similar exists on any other part of the Shroud. The photomicrograph shows several fibers from the center of the radiocarbon sample in water. The gum is swelling and slowly detaching from the fibers. Many red alizarin/mordant lakes can be seen, and yellow dye is in solution in the gum. Several cotton fibers are visible, a situation unique to the Raes and radiocarbon samples.
The radiocarbon sampling area had been dyed to match the old part of the cloth. The sample chosen for dating was totally invalid for determining the true age of the Shroud.
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Most people associate "Vanillin" with the dating process of the shroud. But very few consider how it is used to determine the tempurature of the image making process.
---------------------------- The kinetics of vanillin elimination from lignin that determine a low temperature image-formation processhttp://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-08.htm
Glucose decomposes by a multi-step process. As with all of the other saccharides, the first is a dehydration/condensation reaction. The condensation processes yield carbon-carbon double bonds, which ultimately lead to color formation. Bruce Waymack of Philip Morris measured the kinetics of the first reaction as E = 23.9 kcal/mole and Z = 1.26 X 107 s-1. The low-molecular-weight polysaccharides are much less stable than cellulose.
I measured the kinetics of vanillin elimination from lignin as E = 23.6 kcal/mol and Z = 3.7 X 1011 s-1. It is much less stable than crystalline cellulose.
Results of kinetics studies support a lowÂtemperature image-formation process. The temperature was not high enough to change cellulose within the time available for image formation, and no char was produced.
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These following two discussions on Vanillin and Lignin are the one skeptics over react to as a dating process to determine the Shroud's Date. But we can discuss them openly here without concern of debate ramifications of the discussion. Let's do it!
-------------------------------- Are there any other ways than radiocarbon to date the Shroud of Turin? http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-13.htm
Some compounds like lignin change composition with time. The lignin in the Shroud does not give the normal microchemical test for vanillin, indicating that it is quite old. Measurements of the chemical rate for loss of vanillin estimates an age for the Shroud of more than 1300 years, depending on storage conditions.
Lignin is a structural polymer that is found in all plants, including flax. Linen is bleached in an effort to remove as much lignin as possible, but some lignin always remains in linen. Lignin slowly ages with the loss of vanillin (4-hydroxy-2-methoxybenzaldehyde). A very sensitive microchemical test exists for the detection of traces of vanillin. It is easy to detect vanillin in modern lignin, it is harder to find in Medieval linen, and no test can be obtained from the few Shroud fibers that are still available for study. The lignin in samples from the Dead Sea scrolls (ca. AD 70) does not give the vanillin test. This observation would suggest that the linen of the Shroud is very old, casting doubt on the accuracy of the 1988 date. Observations on the lignin could be confirmed with samples from the "restoration"; however, such samples are jealously guarded in Turin.
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Let's have some productive sharing my friends.
Knowledge is worth the effort. Wisdom is worth the experience. Resolution of the tensions of competing ideas leads to learning and growth. - joer 5/3/2009
The more you discover you are Loved By God. The more you want to do God''s Will
In the past , Much has been written about The Shroud Of Turin . It is called The Shroud Of Turin '' , Because Turin is the name of a city in Italy , Where this Burial Cloth is kept . There are many Discrepancies , As to The Authenticity of this Burial Cloth ; Some say that it is True .... Others say that it is False . Yet , How many of you know about this Christian Relic ? Not Many Of You Do !!! Sinologists , Scientists , Anthropologist and the likes are all Fumbling around , And Guessings in their Laboratories trying to Concoct reasons why people should Believe and Worship The Shroud , Why ? So that they would have some other way to make you spend your money . Now by the mere mention of this word '' Shroud '' , You should pose questions in your minds as to it's Authenticity . The question that you should be asking concerning this definition is .... Why Did They Use The Name Shroud ? Why Couldn't It Have Been Called Something Else Beside Shroud , Especially If It Claimed Such A '' Holy Christian '' Relic ? I'll Tell You Why !!
Because whenever The Luciferians is trying to deceive you ; He puts in a little Truth , Within his lie ; Here In Lies The Truth ! Just by the fact that '' Shroud '' Means to protect or to Conceal 'The Luciferians are telling you that he is trying to protect something about whether it is His Lies or Concealing something anout The Truth . The Truth to the matter is ; The Shroud Is Nothing But A Hoax ! Not only am I saying this , But so are your Scientists Ler take a look as the following articles . Shroud Of Turin Mystery Solved History's Most Electrifying Image Was Made 600 Years Ago ... By Ragan Dunn . The Face Of Christ ? The Worlds Famous Shroud Of Turin Is At The Center Of Controversy In Europe . French Historian Paul Cabart Disputes The Belief That The Image Is 2,000 Years Old . It's Only 600 Years Old , He Claim .
The worse thing about The Shroud is the fact , That There Are 42 Of Them . It might have sounded more Believable If There Were Only One . Or Maybe Two Of Them , But 42 ? How Is It That They Know Which On Is The Authentic One . Does The Shroud Have Any Spiritual Signifcance ? No !!! Why do people who call themselves learnt , And strict adherents of the Scriptures consider The Shroud So Holy And Sanctified ? The Shroud Is A Piece Of Vloth , With An Image , Which means that these learnt Scholars are ignoring the laws , And commandments of The Scriptures . The Scriptures specifically states not To Worship Or Bow Down To Graven Images ( Idols ) Exodus 20 ; 4 - 5 .
Exodus 20 ; 4 - 5 ( Modern Hebrew Script )
You Will Not Make For Yourself And < Fehsel > 'Idol' At All , Any < Temoonaw > 'Likeness 'In The < Shawmahyim > 'Skies < Mahal > Above 'Or That Is In The Planet Earth From Beneath Or In The < Mahyim > Waters From Under The Planet Earth . You Will Not < Shawkhaw > Prostrate Yourself To Them , Nor < Awbad > Serve ' Them ; For I A Yahuwa Eloheek Am A < Qannaw > Jealous ' El The One < Fawqad > Visiting The < Awwone > Iniquity ' Of The < Awb > Father Upon The < Bane > Children Up To The < Shillays > Third And < Ribbayah > Fourth Generation Of Them That < Sawnay > Hate ' Me ! < Right Translation In Aramic ( Hebrew )
( Mistranslation For King James 1611 A.D. )
Thou Shalt Not Make Unto Thee Any Graven Image , Or Any Likeness Of Anything That Is In The Heaven Above , Or That Is In The Earth Beneath , Or That Is In The Water Under The Earth
; Thous Shalt Not Bow Down Thyself To Them , Or Serve Them ; For I , The Sustainer They Creator Am A Jealous Creator . Visiting The Iniquity Of The Father Upon The Children Unto The Third And Fourth Generation Of Them That Hate Me ' .
Why Do You Worship The Shroud ? Why Do You Worship Those Statues And Pictures Of Jesus As '' God '' ? You May Say That The Shroud Is Not A Graven Image . However , They Way You Make The Shroud Or Any Other Picture A Graven Image Is By Saying That Jesus ( Whose Image You Christian Say Is On The Shroud ) Is '' God '' Had You Said That The Image On The Shroud Was Only Am Image Of Yashua ( Jesus ) And Not The '' Heavenly Father '' , There Would Be No Problem , The Sin Comes In When You Give The Creator An Image ; He Is Not Yashua ( Jesus ) . The Shroud Of Turin Is Not The Image Of Yashu's ( Jesus ) , Whom You Believe Was '' God '' Manifested In The Flesh .
The Shroud Of Turin Is nothing but a big Farce To Deceive You Shroudists Claim The Blood And Burial Spices On Judas' ( Who They Though Was Yashu'a ) Body , Interacted And Caused An Image Of The Shroud ; However , The Image on The Shroud Of Turin would not have been as precise as they made it seem . Just by the mere fact that The Shroud was wrapped around the body , Would tell you a complete . Undistorted Head - To - Toe Image would be impossible to obtain . The Bible speaks about Burial Clothes , But they never mentioned The Burial Clother as being marked , Or printed on . Since everything else about Yashu'a ( Jesus ) is documented ; wouldn't you think , That this type of information should have been recorded ?
What Is The Meaning Of The Word '' Shroud ? According To The ''American Heritage Dictionary '' The Word '' Shroud '' Is Defined As ; Shroud -- 1 . ( Noun ) A Cloth Used To Wrap A Body For Burial ; Winging Sheet . 2 . Something That Conceals , Protects , Or Screens In The Manner Of A Garment . Shroud -- 1 . ( Verb ) To Wrap ( Corpse ) In Burial Clothing . 2 . To Envelope , Screen ; Hide .
Exactly What Is The Shroud Of Turin ? Christians claim that The Shroud Of Turin is the identical Shroud that the body of Yashu'a was laid in after his supposed Crucifixion ; It measures approximately 14 Feet , and 3 Inches Long , By 3 Feet And 1 Inch Wide . This Cloth is made of a mixture of Cotton , And Linen Woven In A Herringbone Pattern Which is according to Textile Experts , It is identical in Material , And it Weaves into many Fabrics from the near East of The First and Third Century . This piece of Linen is Ivory in color , Almost Yellow , And it has Burn Marks , Which run down it's Sides , As a result of a Fire . Which occurred in the year 1532 A.D. Water Marks which resemble rough cut diamonds , Are still visible of The Shroud from when the fire was extinguished . Visible are the marks from Triangular Linen Patches which were applied to the Worst Burns by Nuns from Sainte Claire - En - Ville . Other Marks appearing on The Shroud are Two Faint Images Of A Body .
Shroudists states that this Cloth had been Laid Length Wise On The Body - Beginning At The Heels , And Proceeding Up The Back , To The Base Of The Skull , Over The Head And Down To The Toes , The Picture Portrayed On The Shroud Is Of A Man With An Owl - Shaped Face ; Eyes Opened , And A Long Nose . The Mouth Is Only A Smudge Beneath The Nostrils . The Hair Appeared To Be Long , And Stringy , Hanging To The Shoulders . The Only Other Visible Point On The Body Are The Hands , Which Apparently Were Folder Over The Loins . Also On The Shroud Are The Dull Red Stains Of Blood ( Or At Least What Some Think Is Bloods ) . The Supposed Gash On The Victim's Side Resulted In The Most Bleeding . The Blood Had Gathered Around The Hole , The Side Of The Body , And The Small Of The Back . Dully Wrapped , The Body Was Temporarily Placed ( According To Christians ) In A Narrow Tomb , The Property Of Joseph Of Arimathea .
Shroudists say that this representation of Yashu'a was his way of leaving A '' Visual Record Of What Happened To Him In The Bloody Hours Of His Death.'' The Shroud Of Turin was introduced in The Mid - 14th Century , In a Town Of Lirey , France . This Shroud was first discovered by a famous French Knight , By the name of Geoffrey l De Charney . It is not quite clear how he gained possession of The Shroud . It has been said that he won it as a '' Spoil Of Battle '' ( In The Crusade Of 1346 A.D. ) ; And his granddaughter holds to this claim , But his son claims that it was given to him as a gift . So it stands vague as to where he first obtained The Shroud . However , A few years after Geoffrey l De Charney founded The Monastery Of Lirey ( 1353 A.D. ) , He presented it with The Shroud .
In the year ( 1452 A.D. ) , Margaret De Charney , The granddaughter of Geoffrey De Charney ,
She was at the time the only Survivor Of The Family , And Consequently . The last Legitimate Owner Of The Shroud , And she took The Relic to The Court of Chambery , Where she presented it to Ann of Lusignan , Wife of Louis , Duke of Savoy . From then on , It has belonged to The House Of Savoy . Duke Louis of Savoy , Built A Special Church At The Champelle Where The Shroud Had Been Glorifed By The Catholic Church . In 1532 A.D. A fire broke out in The Sacristy Of Saint Chapel , At Chambery , And Before The Christians were able to retrieve The Shroud m Drops of Molten Siver from its Casket dropped on The Cloth , And Scorched The Corners of the folds . Large stains were left , As a result of the extinguishing of the fire . There is no earlier record of The Shroud Of Turin that has been documented , Prior to the 14th Century . However , It has been said on the year 1204 A.D. The Knight Of The Templars Organization Took Over Constantinople . Among Those Relics That Were Found ,There Was What Was Called A Burial Cloth Which Supposedly Bore , A Complete Head - To - Toe Image Of Jesus . If we were to believe that The Shroud was in Constantinople in 1204 A.D. And then taken during the seize ; What happened between then , And The 14th Century ?
The Mandolin Cloth ~ Also found among The Relics in Constantinople was a Mandylion Cloth which is said to contain only a dacial image of Yashua ( Jesus ) . Christians claim that The Mandylion Cloth first appeared in the possession of Muslims rulers from whom it had been taken by force in the year 944 A.D. However , No other information had ever been recorded to prove whether it was True or not . Contrary to belief , The Shroud Of Turin is one Cloth , And The Mandylion is something totally different . However , Ian Wilson Author of ''' The Shroud Book '' , States that they were really one , And the same . He reports that Christians kept The Shroud up until the destruction of Jerusalem , And after that , It was taken to Edessa , Syria which is now medern day Turkey .
When The King of Edessa had abandoned his Religion , The Christians fear persecution , and the possibility of The Shroud Being Destroyed ; So They Hid It In A Niche , In The City Walls , To Store Out Of Sight , It Was Folded In Fours , So That The Face Was Visible . This Is Why Ian Wilson's Theory Insists , That The Shroud Of Turin , And The Mandylion Cloth Are One And The Same , But Many People Did Not Agree , So , Ian Wilson Concluded , It Seems That Only The Founder Of The Shroud Would Be Able To Tell The Difference Between The Two Ian Wilson Also States That During The 14th Century , When The Shroud First Came Into Existence , The People Of Byzantine Manufactured Many Cloths Which Were Like The Mandylion Cloth In Which It Would Be Regarded , As Miraculously Produced . In Fact , The Shroud Of Turin Is So Popular . That As I Have Stated Previously . [ There Are 42 Shrouds Claiming Authenticity ] . The Shroud Is Know By Italians As The Santa Sindae , Or The Holy Shroud . It Is Kept Within Turin's Cathedral Of St . John The Baptist . It Lies Rolled Around A Velvet Staff . And It Is Wrapped In Red Silk , Within A Four Feet Long Wooden Caslet Ornamented In Silver , With Emblems Of The Passion '' , Or '' Sufferings Of Christ '' .
The casket is kept within an Iron Chest , Weapped in Asbestors which come from ; Middle English asbestus , from Latin asbestos , mineral or gem , from Greek , mineral or gem , and means '' fibrous mineral forms of impure magnesium silicate , used for fireproofing , electrical insulation , building materials , brake linings , and chemical filters . And it is Sealed by three locks , Each requiring a separate Key . The Iron Chest is within a Wooden Box with a Painted Cover . The Cover is all that is visible and behind the Two Iron Grilles in The Upper '' Sepulcher '' Section Of The Alter , The Shroud Is Stored , Since 1694 A.D. The Shroud has been kept in A Special Shrine , That was Built for an Overview of the high altar in The Cathedral Of Turin ; Italy's North West Region of Piedmont . The Shroud Of Turin is kept in a Silver Chest it is wound on A Roller , And backed by '' Red Silk '' . There is no mystery behind The Shroud Of Turin , Just Lies ! This is a perfect example of how far Christians will go , To Keep their incomplete donctrine ( Christianity ) Alive . Give it Back ! In Time , It will fail because . It lacks a strong foundation , And it lacks Morals . So like a house built on water , It is destined to perish .
There is no mystery behind The Shroud Of Turin , Just Lies ! This is a perfect example of how far Christians will go , To Keep their incomplete donctrine ( Christianity ) Alive . Give it Back ! In Time , It will fail because . It lacks a strong foundation , And it lacks Morals . So like a house built on water , It is destined to perish .
Hi Kadmon. Good to hear from you. I noticed your post seemed to contain much more opinion and very little if any cited scientific evidence to support it.
It seems that you are skeptic of anything to do with the shroud or chistians in general. While I respect your opinion, I`m curious if you have any obective scientific evidence you would be interested in discussing in a much less general manner. Something of a single issue of scientific evidence perhaps that you believe provides a specific conclusive point of issue.
For example in conclusion to a vast discussion of the scientific and other evidences and opinions about the shroudHERE
Is the Shroud of Turin valid evidence of Jesus or divinity? I came to the following conclusion:
I think one of the strongest scientifically supported points made in the debate about the Shroud is that it should be c-14 tested again with a scientifically PROPER selection of samples from at least 3 different areas of the Shroud.
I cannot think of any other conclusion in this debate that is more profoundly demonstrated than that. In spite of all the claims of lies, shams, fraud, manipulation etc. of both sides. That one thing would end this controversy of debate ONCE AND FOR ALL! Again that would be that c-14 test on a proper sample selection as has been abundantly described and documented on this thread. IMHO.
Than of course only the issue of HOW THE IMAGE was made would remain to be conclusively proven. IMHO
Would you agree, at least as far as the date of the shroud is concerned, the scientific test performed as Has been suggested by many scientists with the sample selection as specified, would provide once and for all a definitive answer for believers and skeptics alike.
Thanks Kadmon for your interest.
Good Will to you friend.
The more you discover you are Loved By God. The more you want to do God''s Will
joer wrote:
Would you agree, at least as far as the date of the shroud is concerned, the scientific test performed as Has been suggested by many scientists with the sample selection as specified, would provide once and for all a definitive answer for believers and skeptics alike.
Thanks Kadmon for your interest.
Good Will to you friend.
I say that as far as the date of the shroud is concerned, the dating performed has not been shown to be faulty.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
joer wrote:
Would you agree, at least as far as the date of the shroud is concerned, the scientific test performed as Has been suggested by many scientists with the sample selection as specified, would provide once and for all a definitive answer for believers and skeptics alike.
Thanks Kadmon for your interest.
Good Will to you friend.
I say that as far as the date of the shroud is concerned, the dating performed has not been shown to be faulty.
But the sample selection process has been proven to be falty therefore disallowing for a conclusve answer to be drawn for the dating process. Unfortunately
The more you discover you are Loved By God. The more you want to do God''s Will
joer wrote:
Would you agree, at least as far as the date of the shroud is concerned, the scientific test performed as Has been suggested by many scientists with the sample selection as specified, would provide once and for all a definitive answer for believers and skeptics alike.
Thanks Kadmon for your interest.
Good Will to you friend.
I say that as far as the date of the shroud is concerned, the dating performed has not been shown to be faulty.
But the sample selection process has been proven to be falty therefore disallowing for a conclusve answer to be drawn for the dating process. Unfortunately
Uh. No.. That claim has been made, but that has not shown to be the case at all.
It falls into a pattern.. the Shroud believers make a claim, the claim is shown to be false, but that information is ignored, and the claim is repeated. They also have tons of papers they put out, the majority of them are unpublished by scientific journals. .. and the ones that do get published are ripped to shreds. That is ignored by the believers though.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
IMHO
