Judge not, that you be not judged

[Zzyzx]

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"Judge not, that you be not judged" ( Matthew 7:1) does NOT require a supernatural judge

A person who is prone to look for the ‘sins’ of others is likely to also look at their own ‘sins’ and judge themselves.

[Wootah]

So let's look at the text line 5.
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Clearly, in context, we are meant to judge.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Are you sure you are not seeing what you want (or expect) to see?

I can absolutely guarantee you that I'm not seeing what I want. Because I really have no specific desired outcome concerning this particular topic. Nor do I have any expectations. I simply accept what's shown to be obvious.

You do have expectations. These are your words from post 2:

This is why when speaking with a Christian theist we need to consider the perspective from which they are viewing all of this. They can't see the practical reality of the actual wisdom because they are already assuming that this refers to how some external God will judge them. So they are locked into that perspective.

You then projected this onto me... but I did not do what you said. I said that my personal experience is the opposite of what Z stated. Bust Nak made the same point as I made, and I do not think you can claim the above to be true of him.

people who are prone to look for others' sins tend to miss their own sins; just as judgmental people tend to judge everyone except themselves. Some even use others' sins to make themselves feel righteous (self-righteous), and to avoid looking in the mirror.

You are making a naive speculated assumption here. You have no idea what goes on in the minds of people who judge others. However psychologists do have an idea. And what the psychologists know that you appear to be ignoring is that people who judge others actually do judge themselves simultaneously without even realizing it. It's all done subconsciously. So people who judge others do judge themselves more harshly on a subconscious level. The fact that they are clueless about this on a conscious level is basically irrelevant.

You seem to think that people who judge others are somehow doing this with a fully conscious understanding of what they are doing. But that is far from the case.

I don't think we are talking about the same kind of 'judging', but perhaps you can post those psychologists views and some studies on the subject so I can see what you are referring to? Please note that Z referred to those people who are prone to look for the sins of others.

(I also did not speak at all about sub-conscious motivations)



Peace again to you!

[Zzyzx]

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So let's look at the text line 5.
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Clearly, in context, we are meant to judge.

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye" seems to indicate that it has not been 'cast out' -- and that judgment is not to be made until the 'beam' is gone.

Perhaps that could be restated as: Don't judge the sins of others until you are free of sin yourself.

Who is free of 'sin' according to the Bible?

[William]

[Replying to post 11]

Wootah: So let's look at the text line 5.

The Script: Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Wootah: Clearly, in context, we are meant to judge.

William: I think that perhaps you conflate meanings out of context.
Presuming one has dealt with one own 'eye-beam' - this make it easier to potentially assist others in removing the 'mote' from their own eye...not by judgment, but through something else entirely.

You see, the help one can give another is based upon personal knowledge of how one first removed judgment from the equation.
Simply put in context - it is the act of judging which makes one a hypocrite. Cease judging and one ceases to be a hypocrite.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 11 by Wootah]

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Clearly we are meant to cast stones?

[Purple Knight]

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"Judge not, that you be not judged" ( Matthew 7:1) does NOT require a supernatural judge

A person who is prone to look for the ‘sins’ of others is likely to also look at their own ‘sins’ and judge themselves.

I really don't like this quote. To some degree I have to judge people to avoid doing what they do.

What Jesus is asking for is for me to turn a blind eye when Bob murders because murder is okay, and still not go murder people myself because murder is not okay.

If I'm being asked to identify that murder is wrong, so that I don't do it, I can't just turn that off when someone else does it. If I did, my analysis of Bob would be something like this:

"What a great guy. Bob sure has a lot of stuff he gets from shooting and robbing people. Bob is super successful. I should strive to imitate Bob."

[Zzyzx]

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I really don't like this quote. To some degree I have to judge people to avoid doing what they do.

I'm with you 100% on that. The quote is for the benefit of those who claim to 'follow the Bible' and be REAL Christians (and get a ticket to heaven -- or whatever their agenda).

It is VERY foolish, naive, impractical advise. We MUST judge people in all kinds of settings -- from business to personal relationships to voting. Why would anyone advise to not judge?

[Divine Insight]

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"Judge not, that you be not judged" ( Matthew 7:1) does NOT require a supernatural judge

A person who is prone to look for the ‘sins’ of others is likely to also look at their own ‘sins’ and judge themselves.

I really don't like this quote. To some degree I have to judge people to avoid doing what they do.

What Jesus is asking for is for me to turn a blind eye when Bob murders because murder is okay, and still not go murder people myself because murder is not okay.

If I'm being asked to identify that murder is wrong, so that I don't do it, I can't just turn that off when someone else does it. If I did, my analysis of Bob would be something like this:

"What a great guy. Bob sure has a lot of stuff he gets from shooting and robbing people. Bob is super successful. I should strive to imitate Bob."

I look at this from an entirely different perspective.

I have no need to judge Bob at all in order to decide how to live my own life.

Also, let's imagine that Bob murdered someone, and openly confessed to it, perhaps even bragging that he wanted to kill the person and enjoyed doing it.

Should I then judge Bob to be an immoral person? No, not at all. As far as I'm concerned he could simply be mentally disturbed, or hopelessly stupid, or whatever. I neither need to judge Bob's morality, nor would it do anyone any good for me to even try.

In fact, unlike many religious people, I'd rather leave that up to any God that might exist. Let God be the judge, if there is a God.

And if there is no God, then what's the point in judging anyone's morality anyway?

Should we incarcerate Bob? Yes, of course! But not for the purpose of punishing Bob. The only reason we need to incarcerate Bob is to prevent him from murdering other people. His incarceration is for the safety of others, not to punish Bob. After all, what is to be gained by punishing Bob? Absolutely nothing.

So no, I don't need to judge anyone moral character. As far as I'm concerned they could be insane, or just seriously stupid. In fact, these latter two cases poses a serious problem for any creator God, right?

Why is a God created insane and seriously stupid people?

If any humans do nasty things, we should first question the efficiency and effectiveness of their creator.

And of course, if there is no creator and we are all just accidents of nature, then this explains everything, right?

Ironically, there are no problems at all until we try to imagine a creator who has created humans. Only then do things get seriously problematic.

[Purple Knight]

Should I then judge Bob to be an immoral person? No, not at all.

Well then I want to do what Bob does. If he does it and is not immoral, and gains by it, then I want to imitate him and make those same gains.

Should we incarcerate Bob? Yes, of course! But not for the purpose of punishing Bob. The only reason we need to incarcerate Bob is to prevent him from murdering other people.

If murdering people isn't wrong I fail to see how you come to the conclusion that the safety of others is right. Let him murder more people. It wasn't wrong when he did it the first time; it won't be wrong the next time.

Why is a God created insane and seriously stupid people?

If Bob gets ahead by murdering and he is not immoral to murder, then he is neither insane nor stupid. He is simply doing what is logical, as should I.

You can't get around making a moral judgment here, though you have to couch it in amoral-sounding words like nasty or insane. You're still judging that he ought not to do those things, and if he does do them, he needs to be stopped.