New user with a question

[Enculasse Deskeubs]

Hi, everyone.

I was "politely" asked to take this question to a religious debate forum, which, I guess, this is.

I see all of this discussion about so many complex topics, and I would love to jump in on it, but first I have to get an answer to my very simple question. Why do people believe that God exists?

I'm not an atheist, I've just never seen any evidence to show that a god or gods exist, so I'm wondering why other people believe it.

[Zzyzx]

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Wow that’s a lot of questions from a short post.

I tend to ask a lot of questions of those who profess to have knowledge and understanding of the topic of discussion.

First of all can we get rid of the irrelevant stuff like what science, astrology, religion, and politics used to think?

Don’t Biblicists / Fundamentalists / Literalists think the bible is literally true, just as people long ago thought? Is the bible “the word of god� – in its earliest forms?

By the way I’m with you on the planets round the earth thing but doubt more than a hand full of people ever thought the world was flat

There are more that an “handful� of people NOW who think the Earth is flat.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

History of the Middle and Dark Ages is replete with accounts of the “Flat Earth� and mariners were cautioned about sailing “to the edge�. Maps from only a few hundred years ago depicted the Earth as flat. Bible stories seem to assume a flat Earth -- for instance, a high mountain from which all kingdoms of the world can be seen (which is impossible on a sphere).

What makes you think that only a “handful� of people thought the Earth was flat in past times?

Also with regard to your saying and I quote ....“The trite saying, “The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree� seems to apply. A few of us fell or bounced FAR from the tree and chose our own path that differed from our upbringing and from social / family pressure or expectations.�... You have no grounds for that assumption

Notice that I made NO assumption, but quoted an old saying I identified as trite. There was no suggestion that it applied to any individual – but was a general statement.

and anyway I am very proud of my tree and only hope that I can do it justice.

Those who wish to personalize a general statement are welcome to do so, but are not welcome to credit others with making assumptions about them.

From what you say below, you DID “fall far from the tree� (raised as a “free thinker� and now evidently religious). Free thinking and religion are usually, though not always, incompatible.

I do feel sorry for anybody that feels otherwise, not you personally but it must be difficult for those from a granny smith that want to be a golden delicious. ?

Many aspire to be what they are not – and some succeed in making changes.

That “sympathy� is misplaced. Many who come from poor quality “trees� develop into very desirable “trees� themselves.

In fact my parents brought me up to be a free thinker from the start and in my day that was hard. I was the only one in my class at school that had a letter sent in saying that I was to be excused assembly on the grounds that I had no religion and should not be asked to pray. At that time I thought as you probably do that all religion was rubbish and only any good as an excuse for war.

I have never taken or expressed the position that “all religion is rubbish� (though I do note that religious differences HAVE led to conflict and war). In my opinion, religion has its place – personal and private and/or in church – but that it should not be inflicted where it is not welcome or invited.

[McCulloch]

This is what I'm fascinated with...why do people, who can otherwise think and reason, stop thinking and just decide to believe something? Is it because other people believe it?

If you are sane, you cannot decide to believe or not to believe anything. Try this: attempt to choose to believe that someone you know can play the violin like Stéphane Grappelli; the cello like Steven Isserlis; guitar like Jeff Beck or piano like Stephen Hough. Did it work? Did you really believe that?

Why not? It is because our beliefs are not a matter of choice. We believe what we believe for reasons. Sometimes the reasons are difficult to determine, but we don't simply just choose to believe.

[Baz]

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Wow that’s a lot of questions from a short post.

I tend to ask a lot of questions of those who profess to have knowledge and understanding of the topic of discussion.

First of all can we get rid of the irrelevant stuff like what science, astrology, religion, and politics used to think?

Don’t Biblicists / Fundamentalists / Literalists think the bible is literally true, just as people long ago thought? Is the bible “the word of god� – in its earliest forms?

By the way I’m with you on the planets round the earth thing but doubt more than a hand full of people ever thought the world was flat

There are more that an “handful� of people NOW who think the Earth is flat.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

History of the Middle and Dark Ages is replete with accounts of the “Flat Earth� and mariners were cautioned about sailing “to the edge�. Maps from only a few hundred years ago depicted the Earth as flat. Bible stories seem to assume a flat Earth -- for instance, a high mountain from which all kingdoms of the world can be seen (which is impossible on a sphere).

What makes you think that only a “handful� of people thought the Earth was flat in past times?

Also with regard to your saying and I quote ....“The trite saying, “The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree� seems to apply. A few of us fell or bounced FAR from the tree and chose our own path that differed from our upbringing and from social / family pressure or expectations.�... You have no grounds for that assumption

Notice that I made NO assumption, but quoted an old saying I identified as trite. There was no suggestion that it applied to any individual – but was a general statement.

and anyway I am very proud of my tree and only hope that I can do it justice.

Those who wish to personalize a general statement are welcome to do so, but are not welcome to credit others with making assumptions about them.

From what you say below, you DID “fall far from the tree� (raised as a “free thinker� and now evidently religious). Free thinking and religion are usually, though not always, incompatible.

I do feel sorry for anybody that feels otherwise, not you personally but it must be difficult for those from a granny smith that want to be a golden delicious. ?

Many aspire to be what they are not – and some succeed in making changes.

That “sympathy� is misplaced. Many who come from poor quality “trees� develop into very desirable “trees� themselves.

In fact my parents brought me up to be a free thinker from the start and in my day that was hard. I was the only one in my class at school that had a letter sent in saying that I was to be excused assembly on the grounds that I had no religion and should not be asked to pray. At that time I thought as you probably do that all religion was rubbish and only any good as an excuse for war.

I have never taken or expressed the position that “all religion is rubbish� (though I do note that religious differences HAVE led to conflict and war). In my opinion, religion has its place – personal and private and/or in church – but that it should not be inflicted where it is not welcome or invited.

Zzyzx
Sorry mate but you’ve done it again! (Seven quotes with comments and questions) I don’t think I can keep up. I have all ready said that I am simple minded and would have trouble keeping up, I am happy with the idea of debating stuff but in my mind it only really works if I focus on individual ideas until satisfied with their conclusion.
To explain; if I was deciding if I liked a building I would view it alone and compare parts of its structure and concentrate on one thing at a time. Yes it would have to be put into the context of the town it was in at some point but I would be totally lost if I tried to look at the town to decide about the building.
Also I am new to this site and even have trouble using quotes properly, so cannot really do multiple responses very well. Hope you understand ( I am not being intentionally difficult)

So I am going to pick just one of your points (and not be tempted to try to do more like last time)
You said “I tend to ask a lot of questions of those who profess to have knowledge and understanding of the topic of discussion.�
All I can say to this is I’m sorry but I think you have the wrong person.
The question I was responding to was; "why do people believe that God exists?"

My response was to say that I don’t think anybody could explain what others believe ( i.e. I don’t know)and went on to say a very little about what I believed i.e. that I am a theist and that I believe it to be a reasonable point of view. I did not profess to have knowledge or understanding of why other people believe that God exists.

I was hoping that this site would help with that.

[Baz]

I've just never seen any evidence to show that a god or gods exist, so I'm wondering why other people believe it.

Going back to your original post I don’t think belief is all about evidence, to use your words, I have never seen any evidence to show that aliens (the on other planet sort) super strings or black holes exist but I believe that they do.

[Zzyzx]

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Going back to your original post I don’t think belief is all about evidence,

I agree. Belief is WITHOUT evidence (or more specifically, without proof -- by definition).

to use your words, I have never seen any evidence to show that aliens (the on other planet sort) super strings or black holes exist but I believe that they do.

To believe is very different from to know. "Know" is defined as: "to apprehend immediately with the mind or with the senses : perceive directly : have direct unambiguous cognition of".

I have no objection when a Theist (or anyone else) states what they BELIEVE -- provided that they clearly identify their statements or claims as beliefs rather than facts. However, I have strong objection when anyone presents their belief as though it was fact or truth.

[dianaiad]

This is what I'm fascinated with...why do people, who can otherwise think and reason, stop thinking and just decide to believe something? Is it because other people believe it?

If you are sane, you cannot decide to believe or not to believe anything. Try this: attempt to choose to believe that someone you know can play the violin like Stéphane Grappelli; the cello like Steven Isserlis; guitar like Jeff Beck or piano like Stephen Hough. Did it work? Did you really believe that?

Why not? It is because our beliefs are not a matter of choice. We believe what we believe for reasons. Sometimes the reasons are difficult to determine, but we don't simply just choose to believe.

Oh, my...you have said something in two paragraphs that it has taken me 60 years to realize fully; everybody believes what they do for a reason. When others look at what they seem to see as illogical or incredible beliefs, and say 'there is no reason to believe this or that," what they are really saying is this: "the reason you believe what you do is a reason I don't accept."

This doesn't mean that the reason is invalid on it's face--it simply means that one person accepts a certain bit of evidence--and another does not.

I've never met anybody who decided to believe in gliddlefoofs because...he simply decided to believe in gliddlefoofs.

So...how DOES one come to believe in God? I think that most of us do so, first, because someone we trust tells us that He exists; we consider what we believe to be 'eyewitness' testimony. Mom wouldn't lie!

Later, as we begin to interact with our culture, our religion and the beliefs we are taught, we come to have a conviction of our own--and we come to that belief through evidence that is personal, subjective--and real enough for us to have faith in. It doesn't really matter, in the long run, if others believe the evidence we use to confirm God's existance, as long as we do.

[Zzyzx]

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Sorry mate but you’ve done it again! (Seven quotes with comments and questions) I don’t think I can keep up.

Keeping up is not important. Reply to whatever you wish in any of the posts in these threads.

It usually makes little difference to me if someone does not respond (though I will occasionally call someone's attention to having not addressed a point I raised or question I asked).

The reason, Baz, for this lack of concern is that the person I am debating with is NOT the focus of my attention. The ideas presented, their validity and their verifiability are of primary importance.

Rather than focusing on the individual debater, READERS are those to whom I wish to present ideas for consideration. In my opinion, many who read without posting (and a few who do post) are sincerely looking for information and for answers to their personal questions about religion or "spiritually" (or absence thereof) -- and may not have ever encountered reasoned opposition to the religious propaganda that permeates our societies.

Most who post in a debate forum (myself included) are well established or firm in their convictions. We will learn from others if our mind is open at all, but that does not seem to be the primary objective of debate. I have learned a great deal from those I regard as "Thinking Theists" -- including that there are religious people who do not claim to KNOW TRUTH about "god" or "what god wants" or about an "afterlife". That has been refreshing and reassuring -- and I thank them.

Only very occasionally do I take any personal interest in an opposing debater (though I do generally take note of positions and style of debate).


Z

[Baz]

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Keeping up is not important. Reply to whatever you wish in any of the posts in these threads.

It usually makes little difference to me if someone does not respond (though I will occasionally call someone's attention to having not addressed a point I raised or question I asked).

The reason, Baz, for this lack of concern is that the person I am debating with is NOT the focus of my attention. The ideas presented, their validity and their verifiability are of primary importance.

Rather than focusing on the individual debater, READERS are those to whom I wish to present ideas for consideration. In my opinion, many who read without posting (and a few who do post) are sincerely looking for information and for answers to their personal questions about religion or "spiritually" (or absence thereof) -- and may not have ever encountered reasoned opposition to the religious propaganda that permeates our societies.

Most who post in a debate forum (myself included) are well established or firm in their convictions. We will learn from others if our mind is open at all, but that does not seem to be the primary objective of debate. I have learned a great deal from those I regard as "Thinking Theists" -- including that there are religious people who do not claim to KNOW TRUTH about "god" or "what god wants" or about an "afterlife". That has been refreshing and reassuring -- and I thank them.

Only very occasionally do I take any personal interest in an opposing debater (though I do generally take note of positions and style of debate).


Z

As you know I am new to this site and debating. I thought I had made it reasonably clear that I have no answers to anything. I am happy to put my point of view usually only when asked or in an attempt to add another perspective to a thread. I can assure you that nothing I say about anything is intended to be construed as fact, only what I believe to be true. From reading your signature I doubt that you will ever be satisfied with anything I have to say, as I am certain that I can prove nothing. I feel that we have very different views on debating and Christianity. From my point of view I could learn something from you an all the others on this site so I will stay with my reading, share my thoughts and ask questions where I want to draw out opinions. I understand that I will not be able reply to any questions to your satisfaction so from a debating point of view you will always win hands down so please do not ask me any more questions with this aim.

I was hoping that this thread would develop into people explaining why they believe god exists, how long and in what way.....
But that’s not debating proper is it it’s just chat I suppose?

[Zzyzx]

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As you know I am new to this site and debating.

I take that into consideration in my uncharacteristically gentle responses.

I thought I had made it reasonably clear that I have no answers to anything.

You have made that clear.

Have I made it clear that I do not expect you to have answers? I often ask questions that I am reasonably certain the person cannot or will not answer – or that their answer will be weak and unsupported. The lack of an answer or a weak answer is apparent and significant to discerning readers.

I am happy to put my point of view usually only when asked or in an attempt to add another perspective to a thread.

Most of us probably think that we add another perspective to a thread by expressing our thoughts or our position. That can be said to be a major objective in debate – and is welcome.

However, when we add our perspective others may disagree – and challenge or question what we have written. We cannot expect that what we express is somehow exempt from disagreement or that it will meet with unanimous approval (particularly in debate).

I can assure you that nothing I say about anything is intended to be construed as fact, only what I believe to be true.

Understood. I do much the same, as indicated by a line in my signature. Occasionally, I do state something as fact – and am then willing to substantiate.

From reading your signature I doubt that you will ever be satisfied with anything I have to say, as I am certain that I can prove nothing.

I admire your forthrightness. Thank you.

I feel that we have very different views on debating and Christianity.

I agree. As long as we disagree civilly, we are doing as the Forum is intended.

From my point of view I could learn something from you an all the others on this site so I will stay with my reading, share my thoughts and ask questions where I want to draw out opinions.

That seems quite reasonable.

I understand that I will not be able reply to any questions to your satisfaction

My satisfaction is immaterial. In debate, ideas are “thrown against one another� and READERS evaluate the merits of what is written.

so from a debating point of view you will always win hands down so please do not ask me any more questions with this aim.

“Winning� is NEVER my aim. As I state over and over, my objective is to encourage people to think and to make decisions based upon reasoning from evidence, observation and experience. I realize this pits me against those who disdain acquisition of knowledge that contradicts certain beliefs – but so be it.

I was hoping that this thread would develop into people explaining why they believe god exists, how long and in what way.....
But that’s not debating proper is it it’s just chat I suppose?

Yes, that is more likely discussion rather than debate. I do not see how anyone can debate personal beliefs. If someone says “I believe XYZ� can anyone challenge that (by saying “Oh no you don’t�)?

However, If someone says “XY&Z are true� that is no longer a statement of personal belief, but a CLAIM of truth and accuracy – which CAN reasonably be challenged.

[Baz]

Either you are you are being exceedingly gentile with me at the moment ( ) or I am getting a bit more used to your style. (Lots or separate quote boxes) it is obviously a very good way of breaking down what somebody has said. If I can work out how to do it properly, I will probably try something similar from time to time.
What I did find overpowering was when every box appeared to be to be a question requiring widening my statements. Usually when I am in an argument I like to focus closer and closer on one aspect, until I have exhausted all apparent options, then I am in a position to decide if I believe that point to be sound or not.
This is probably not debating proper but personally I think I will find it difficult to concede on a wide point, such as there is no god, or that this or that religion is bad, because I have come to believe over time that nothing is black or white and everything is subjective. (I would argue that this extends into known proven science but that’s for some other time)
I appreciate you taking the time to try and help with my debating style
I will take on board as much as I am able (I could be a lost cause!) Buy the way I posted hear rather than a private post in case anybody else has similar problems.

......
Anyway back to the argument, (if it’s not for a separate thread)

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I do not see how anyone can debate personal beliefs. If someone says “I believe XYZ� can anyone challenge that (by saying “Oh no you don’t�)?

However, If someone says “XY&Z are true� that is no longer a statement of personal belief, but a CLAIM of truth and accuracy – which CAN reasonably be challenged.

Can I ask how you know anything to be true. Was it not true that the atom was the smallest possible particle; the speed of light was constant etc?
Is it not true to say that something can only be believed to be true?