Debating Christianity and Religion

And if so, what does that prove about humankind?

If there is gayness in animals, some believe that seems to determine that for humans it should be fine also. But this is a non-sequitur.

This assumes that humans are simply another animal and that there are no other factors involved -- such as a rational/discerning will, and a higher purpose to existence over and beyond instinctual behaviors.

I don't think for a moment that animals "sin" when they display homosexual or other polyamorous sexual behavior. But this is far from saying that this should apply to the human, as a "writ large" generality that Nature as a whole is omni-tolerant.

Rather, I think of polyamorous animal sex as "Nature's Infinite Concession" to creatures of a lower order. In other words, just as you would tolerate the immaturity of a child, because it is lacking in so many departments, so too we should tolerate and even admire the subrational and finitized behaviors of lesser living entities. They are what they are. But humans on the other hand, can decide who they are.

There's the element of free will again. Hope it sticks.

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:20 am But humans on the other hand, can decide who they are.

When did you choose your sexual orientation?


Tcg

Tcg wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:14 am

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:20 am But humans on the other hand, can decide who they are.

When did you choose your sexual orientation?


Tcg

Human existence is always a rich interplay of Freedom and Necessity, not only one or the other. Some things I will grant are for the most part innate -- such as sexual orientation. However, there is still some degree of freedom we all have regarding what to do with our 'givens.' If we wish, we do not have to gratify our desires, we can take a different road, even if it is the more rugged road. I don't wish to condemn anyone for being gay, but I want to insist that the principle of freedom is always there - and one is very well capable of choosing a different lifestyle if he or she or (insert pronoun) wishes.

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:22 pm

Tcg wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:14 am

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:20 am But humans on the other hand, can decide who they are.

When did you choose your sexual orientation?


Tcg

Human existence is always a rich interplay of Freedom and Necessity, not only one or the other. Some things I will grant are for the most part innate -- such as sexual orientation. However, there is still some degree of freedom we all have regarding what to do with our 'givens.' If we wish, we do not have to gratify our desires, we can take a different road, even if it is the more rugged road. I don't wish to condemn anyone for being gay, but I want to insist that the principle of freedom is always there - and one is very well capable of choosing a different lifestyle if he or she or (insert pronoun) wishes.

You didn't answer my question. Why is that?


Tcg

Tcg wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:59 pm

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:22 pm

Tcg wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:14 am

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:20 am But humans on the other hand, can decide who they are.

When did you choose your sexual orientation?


Tcg

Human existence is always a rich interplay of Freedom and Necessity, not only one or the other. Some things I will grant are for the most part innate -- such as sexual orientation. However, there is still some degree of freedom we all have regarding what to do with our 'givens.' If we wish, we do not have to gratify our desires, we can take a different road, even if it is the more rugged road. I don't wish to condemn anyone for being gay, but I want to insist that the principle of freedom is always there - and one is very well capable of choosing a different lifestyle if he or she or (insert pronoun) wishes.

You didn't answer my question. Why is that?


Tcg

I did not choose my sexual orientation. At least, not in this incarnation.

I did answer your question by admitting sexual orientation is innate; didn't I?

At any rate, one's identity as self transcends sexual proclivity.

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:16 pm
I did not choose my sexual orientation.

Yes. Which proves that your homophobic rant wrapped in spiritual blarney is false. We already knew it was ugly. Ugly and false is a bad combination.


Tcg

Tcg wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 11:52 am

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:16 pm
I did not choose my sexual orientation.

Yes. Which proves that your homophobic rant wrapped in spiritual blarney is false. We already knew it was ugly. Ugly and false is a bad combination.


Tcg

I can assure you that there was no intentional malice/homophobia on my part.

Looking back on my original post though, it perhaps is the case that I was a little too brusque. I did not mean to say that one could "simply change" on the spot, as if this were not a complex issue. I believe it is. All I mean to get across is that we are not ultimately bound by fixed identities based upon the body's givens all of the time, and that Nature is not "omnitolerant." Nature is not gay, nor is she straight. In one sense she is neither and includes both. But this is not to say that Nature herself has any attitude to give regarding the qualities that emanate out of her. Nature, in the general sense, is not ultimately a person with likes and dislikes, with preferences or opinions. Nature as I define it is simply the state of affairs that holds at any given time, according to all sorts of circumstances.

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 12:39 pm

Tcg wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2024 11:52 am

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:16 pm
I did not choose my sexual orientation.

Yes. Which proves that your homophobic rant wrapped in spiritual blarney is false. We already knew it was ugly. Ugly and false is a bad combination.


Tcg

I can assure you that there was no intentional malice/homophobia on my part.

Looking back on my original post though, it perhaps is the case that I was a little too brusque. I did not mean to say that one could "simply change" on the spot, as if this were not a complex issue. I believe it is. All I mean to get across is that we are not ultimately bound by fixed identities based upon the body's givens all of the time, and that Nature is not "omnitolerant." Nature is not gay, nor is she straight. In one sense she is neither and includes both. But this is not to say that Nature herself has any attitude to give regarding the qualities that emanate out of her. Nature, in the general sense, is not ultimately a person with likes and dislikes, with preferences or opinions. Nature as I define it is simply the state of affairs that holds at any given time, according to all sorts of circumstances.

The depth of homophobia this reasoning leads to is on display for all to see and hopefully learn to reject the falsehoods presented to support it!


Tcg

[Replying to Dimmesdale in post #7]

The vast majority of living things have reproduced sexually for well over a billion years. The process is binary and requires an egg producer (female) and a sperm producer (male). To facilitate the two coming together sexual attraction and gratification had to also evolve. In some cases that attraction is not directed to the sex that is required for reproduction. That's it. To start waffling about nature being gay or straight is just playing into the rampant nonsense that is gender ideology today and not worth the time of day.

Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:22 pm Human existence is always a rich interplay of Freedom and Necessity, not only one or the other. Some things I will grant are for the most part innate -- such as sexual orientation. However, there is still some degree of freedom we all have regarding what to do with our 'givens.' If we wish, we do not have to gratify our desires, we can take a different road, even if it is the more rugged road. I don't wish to condemn anyone for being gay, but I want to insist that the principle of freedom is always there - and one is very well capable of choosing a different lifestyle if he or she or (insert pronoun) wishes.

Your words do not ring true.
I would be unable to enter a gay bar for example and watch a man dance and then choose to get aroused. I don't have this freedom that you insist is always there which shows that your words are not accurate.

Could you walk into a gay bar and choose to be aroused by a man?