THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

[KCKID]

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.� I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality. I mean, if Christians REALLY desire to condemn ‘sin’ as they perceive it they could give homosexuals a break and instead have a field day targeting the many other human behaviors going on within society that God appears to hate. But …they don’t . . .well certainly not with the same zeal they do toward homosexuality.

So, what is going on here? Does the Bible really condemn sexual relations between consenting adults of the same gender? Or, does the Bible not address the matter of homosexuality at all …or, at least, not as we today recognize homosexuality? Would the Bible authors have even been aware of one’s innate sexuality as well as the complexities surrounding sexuality in general? Or, in simple terms, would they, as with many males of today, have regarded some males as 'effeminate' (or ‘sissies’) based on both ignorance and their own perceived cultural image of the ‘alpha male’? Or, if these authors were considered to be writing by divine authority, might we then say that God is the instigator of such ignorance and has allowed this ignorance to persist from generation to generation?

My main question in this thread is: of the ‘thimble-full’ of scriptures that are commonly used by Christians to condemn homosexuality (sexual attraction/desire directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex), how many of these texts might be considered to be far too ambiguous (open to several possible meanings or interpretations) to have caused such a furor within Christendom in general and specifically resulted in the division of a number of present-day Christian denominations? Can these few scriptures be analyzed so accurately that they can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to condemn homosexuality as we refer to the term today? I say no …they cannot. I’ve given my reasons in the past and will do so again if challenged.

Please discuss the below scriptures, as best you can, exegetically, i.e.
observation: what do the passages say?
interpretation: what do the passages mean?
correlation: how do the passages relate to the topic of homosexuality as we define it today?
application: how should these passages affect your/my life?

Note: I've purposely used the NIV for the following texts.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire . . .etc. (NIV)

Should there be other related Bible texts to the topic feel free to present them based on the above criteria for analysis. I purposely omitted the Sodom and Gomorrah saga since it's been done to death and quite clearly has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. However, likewise feel free to present that strange tale for discussion should you find it to be relevant.

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

KCKID

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.�

It is an abomination, not just a sin. It is behavior that exists outside of the worldview and life described for people that follow the God of Abraham. There is no compatibility with same gender sex acts and what is supposed to be acceptable sexuality for a man and woman/husband and wife. Choosing to engage in homosexuality is a choice that has consequences.

I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality.

Too bad. If you do not want to consider the religious choices of others than you are daringly close to persecution of the faithful. There is no such thing as positive homosexuality anywhere in the Bible.

And in any event, if this is a personal issue for you, which you just define that it is . . . invent your own religion or find solace in organizations that celebrate and encourage people to engage in homosexuality and allow others the right to reject your new religious demands.

'Fraid not on this thread, 99percent.

Is this the same thing as saying "Nuh-uh?" Because what I wrote is indeed very sensible in light of your historic margins and propaganda techniques employed as such.

I referred to specific criteria in my OP that entailed exegetical analysis of the scriptures presented that are typically used by Christians to condemn homosexuality. As usual, you choose to skirt around the criteria specified and would, it seems, prefer to turn the thread into a typical 'them and us' rant. I was hoping to avoid this.

There's criteria to be followed - which you haven't - and so the above by you is not worth reading. How about you try again? We've heard a lot from you over the months with regard to your blanket condemnation of homosexuality as per, YOU say, the Bible.

So then you DO read my posts. Which are honest and sensible rebuttals to liberal and gay theology.

Of course I read your posts. In this thread I'm not so much interested in what YOU deem to be honest and sensible rebuttals to liberal and gay authority ...UNLESS you can show support of such through an exegetical analysis of the Bible texts that I presented.

This is your big chance to give an analysis of the actual scriptures I presented with which to affirm your 'Christian' stance on this issue.

Some of which you learned from me. The entire Bible "affirms" my Christian stance on the issue and YOU have to appeal to a 20th and 21st gay pride movement to "affirm" yours. WHO is the "WE" of YOUR understanding of same gender sex acts "as YOU understand it today?" Of course gay pride activists and liberal theologians.

I must admit that I'd never previously seen or heard the book of Jude offered up as an anti-gay text. So, yes ...I DID get that from you. As for my supposedly appealing to a so-called 20th and 21st century gay pride movement as being the driving force behind my support of equality for homosexual folk, that's a totally unjustified claim. I offered up those very scriptures you so often flaunt here on this forum so that 'we' could determine once and for all (through exegetical analysis) whether they do, in fact, condemn our present understanding of homosexuality. You had and still have the opportunity to do just that. And, if you CAN prove that these texts DO INDEED tally with your take on this issue then wouldn't that serve your purpose?

I did and I already have over and over again. But I notice this weird response tactic of demanding: "Where's your evidence?" And when I supply it. "Where's your proof?"And when I supply that. "Where's your evidence?" Ad infinitum. It's bizaare but I suppose it's all you've got.

And of course you are using an new invention of propaganda and demanding that I answer your new theology by your new rules of that theology.

There is not one piece of scripture anywhere in the Bible that affirms or celebrates or even allows for homosexuality. That should end the issue but the unsettling nature of gay activism keeps up the badgering.

When you take into consideration the description of what Onan did "in the Bible" it is clear that "the Bible" knows what biology and anatomy is and what is sexual behavior and what isn't.

If you're referring to 'wasted seed' as in Onan ...aren't heterosexuals guilty of the same 'sin' whenever they perform 'non-procreative' sex? If not, can you explain why not ...? Recreational sex sounds very much like 'wasted seed' (according to scripture) to me.

My point is about the graphic and accurate nature of the sexuality in the Bible. With such an honest treatment of the subject, you would think that a future gay rights movement to demand acceptance of gay sex would be well defined as such. But what you find is a nothing supporting the homosexualization of the Christian Church. And as in the case of Jude and elsewhere, there is many, many reasons to reject gay pride on nothing but honest grounds. You are literally inventing a new theology and claiming that it is orthodoxy.

Personally, I don't believe that they pertain to homosexuality as we refer to it nowadays at all. But, by all means, prove me wrong.

Prove what wrong? Your "personal opinions????

Gee, you love to highlight your utter disdain for something by stuttering with your "?" marks, don't you?

My disdain is justified by all of the voices in the New Testament.

But, no, I presented the scriptures in order that we (whoever) could analyze them exegetically so that we could, hopefully, eliminate our personal opinions ...even though ambiguous texts probably require an element of speculation. We can probably blame the Bible authors for this situation.

You have simply reinserted the same gay tactics that have been plied and tried before. There is no ambiguity about the support for gay pride in the Bible. It simply doesn't exist. Gay activism is other-worldly. It exists in some non Biblical realm.

I have never veered from your rights to define your morality

My morality? What do YOU know about my moralty?[color]

Plenty. You assert your morality in your opinion pieces. This thread is a perfect example of that. Instead of challenging so-called anti-gay scriptures, why can't you produce overwhelming supportive pronouncements for gay behavior from the Bible?

Simple answer: You can't.

My take on this particular matter has nothing to do with morality but rather Bible exegesis.

The pro family position of Bible believing Christians is labeled homphobia, hate, bigotry, etc., etc.. That is 100% morality.

Man, I have never before used the term 'exegesis' to the extent that I have in this thread.

Using a new propaganda tactic takes practice.

To those who like myself had no idea what the word meant until a few years ago, it simply means 'a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especiallly a religious text.'

Which I engage in ceaselessly but that is called all sorts of gay propaganda nastiness.

AND your new theology any way you enjoy to do it. YOU are entitled to your opinion from now and forever. But you are not entitled to redefine "the faith delivered only once to the saints" and force others to follow your new inventions. Well, I guess you CAN force people to do it, but "in my opinion" that would be persecution of The Church.

Perhaps fancy words, perhaps not ...in any event I'm still waiting for you to give a 'critical explanation or interpretation' of those scriptures that I presented.

Which I did back a few pages ago. Point for point. And of course, there is not one supportive text for gay pride or homosexual behavior (both modern terms) anywhere in the Bible.

"I" don't believe that they interpret what you and "mainstream Christianity" claims that they interpret.

So, ALL OF US are wrong because it makes you mad? Why shouldn't we open the flood gates to gay pride activists and reap a harvest of mountains of cash?

I'll tell you why later

Don't bother. I know your positions and tactics on this subject perfectly.

. . . but, for now, I'm placing the onus on YOU to define those scriptures in a manner that proves that you and "the Church" are correct in using them to condemn homosexuality per se.

It is a fact that our positions are a settled matter. And were settled at the close of the canon of scripture. What you are attempting to do is to invent your own religion, with your own rules and demand that we play by those rules. That is simple bizarre but altogether what is to be expected of liberal theology. Once the foundation can become unimportant and subject to whatever pop culture fad comes along, there is no longer a faith delivered only once, but a faith that is held hostage to mob rule.

After all, it's you and they that are doing the condemning WITH those scriptures.

I did not write the Biblical texts. Nor do I play a scribe on TV. I just present them how they were written. It is actually up to YOU to produce pro-gay scriptures. But all you can do is demand that scripture does not say what it says because of some reason that I cannot fathom why you feel you have the right to possess. You make it clear that you do not need nor desire Biblical pronouncements and have denigrated the Bible at times. I find it fascinating that people like you seem to need some kind of voice of approval from The Christian Church to make gay pride somehow legitimate. It's utterly fascinating.

[99percentatheism]

Danmark

So you admit that I am right about the numbers. I hope you don't think that I really believe that things won't get worse for The Church do you? The "falling away" of the believers is a matter of reality.

You may be confusing tolerance for acceptance. I myself "support" gay marriage because it is the law of the land. But I do not accept or will ever affirm it. Nor will I ever. No different than abortion and adultery, buying porn and supporting legalizing drugs. And you need to notice also that divorce and adultery among "Christians" mirrors the secular population. So the pronouncement that a modern Christian population has become no different than the non and anti Christian population is far more a reflection of a problem in The Church and a realization of what prophecy has always been about....

Since you are obviously contradicting yourself, I do not know what you are saying. You claim to support gay marriage while at the same time you say you will never accept it. These appear to be opposite positions.

You obviously have never read the New Testament. "Redde Caesari quae sunt Caesaris"

Here let me help:

Submission to Authority
13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor[c] as supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. 16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants[d] of God. 17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. 19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

- 1 Peter 2

So, while "I" will accept the secular law about gay pride and homosexuality, I will live as a Christian should and reject it at the same time. Peter rejected Nero and the lascivious licentious Romans and lived as a Christian should. And we Christians today need to follow that path with the gay pride movement and the secular power it wields. It doesn't take words for people to know what Christian truth is. The Romans and Greeks and others that converted to Christianity didn't do so because there was a huge "right wing political body." They did so because Christian life is reality and a worldly life is a waste of time. I find it utterly fascinating that the gay pride movement has moved its activism into The Church for some form of validation to it. Jude of course makes it clear to expect that to happen, but it is still interesting to watch happen right before our eyes.

And no, I do not agree you are 'right about the numbers.'

As I and the millions and millions of my brothers and sisters in Christ have the right to reject your numbers. Mob rule does not a Church issue settle.

The point is not whether more Christians accept gay Christians or not.

A "gay Christian?" Do you mean a Christian that engages in same gender sexual behavior? Gay is a construct of 20th and 21st century gay pride propaganda. Repentance and forgiveness is still there for any sinner. That has never changed for any pop culture fads.

The issue is that a substantial number of Christians accept gay Christians, and that the trend among Christians is that an increasing number of Christians accept gays into their fellowship.

Or be harassed and sued? Have their tax exempt status threatened and revoked? It's pretty scary what the gay activists are doing to people that will not submit to gay authority. You do notice that a substantial number of Christians accept all sorts of sinners into their congregations without "affirming" their sins, sinning and sinfulness? How many drug and porn addicts, are sitting in pews every Sunday? How many adulterers and promiscuous "Christians" are in accepted into fellowship.

And how many people are "being saved" in gay Churches? All I notice is that liberalism and progressive worldviews, no different than in non and anti Christian organizations, are now commonplace in places called "Christian Churches." Ever heard of John Spong? Mel White? They parrot a secularized worldview so closely it is impossible to know which is which. If there is no difference between non Christian worldviews and that of worldviews in gay, liberal and progressive Churches, that does not bode well for the Gospel to be preached the same way Jesus is quoted as preaching it. There ARE limits to what is and what isn't truth in a Christian life. And as it has been pointed out so often, Jesus never said a word about homosexuality. And He did talk about the future too.

[Joab]

Why do you think homosexuality is a choice?

Because I am a human being and not a lower animal.

This is not an answer

Oh really? Al you woman parts somehow redesigned themselves? Or are we talking about your what is in your mind? If you enter this conversation with me, I get to ask rational questions to your choice behaviors.

Could you please show me where the rational parts of these questions are?

What are you demanding? Are you demanding that I, as a Christian, must live by your morality and your definition of what hate is? This whole labeling of Christian life as a homophobic hate crime is persecution.

And only seems to exist in your head.

Once again with feeling, you didn't choose to be hetero,you didn't choose to be hetero, you didn't choose to be hetero.

Aren't you a little annoyed that your god didn't give you the choice you claim he gave others. Your god obviously doesn't treat people fairly.

[KCKID]

99percent, I'm going to have to offer up each of the scriptures I presented in my OP one by one so that we can concentrate on the exegetical merits of each. I trust that you'll cooperate and not diverge into areas of red herrings, subterfuge and emotional outbursts. In fact, why WOULD you become so emotional and, at times, almost hysterical, about one's merely disagreeing with yours and mainstream Christianity's particular take on the print from a book? In fact, why HAS this topic become such a personal one to you? Because you love and respect God and the Bible characters SO much? No. I don't believe that. Not unless you're so fearful of an eternal fiery hell that you feel the need to defend the Bible and its human authors at all costs in order to stay in God's favor.

So, why DO you take this so personally ...?

Anyway, let's start at the very beginning . . .Leviticus 20:13. "If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Yikes! What do we make of this? Does this text speak of consensual intimacy between two males? Does it reference two males who love each other and wish to commit themselves to one another in 'marriage'?
Does the text speak of consensual intimacy between two females? Does it reference two females who love each other and wish to commit themselves to one another in marriage? This text says NOTHING about females at all! JUST males. Why? Hmmm ...this alone should give us a few clues as to what this text does and does not speak of.

Rather than to take the time typing out what can be seen and heard in less time than it takes to type and read, I present the below video which covers Leviticus 20:13 quite well. Presenting such visuals is quite commonplace in university or college forum debating settings. And, why not? It's only 8:27 minutes in length so it's hardly a distraction. And, it addresses the topic. The main reason why I have no hestation in presenting this video is because it was pretty well endorsed as being 'spot on' by a fellow member of this forum, who also happens to be a Jewish scholar, when I presented it in another thread several weeks ago. This pretty well means that you won't be able to justify the usual catch-cry "this video is not accurate but merely gay propaganda."

Enjoy!

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

You make the accusation that this is personal to me while you engage in ad hominem directed from your personal quest for gay pride to take authority in the Church and over "me?"

All you and your gay pride proponents need do is to build your own denominations and watch the numbers of congregants grow and grow. What is known as bearing fruit. But all that is happening is that secularism is being plied as theology. Where are all of the mass conversions "of the lost" to gay preaching? What we have happening is schism wherever it takes up authority. That's watering a tree only to have it split into pieces from the effort. That some churches are embracing secular morality and secular political correctness is hardly the fruit Jesus preaches. In fact, it is quite the opposite.

But for some reason, you need to force your demands on "me and the mainstream Church." If anything is a personal matter in all of this gay pride theology you are espousing it in your demands to take up authority in The Church and force Christians to submit to your theology. And proof of that claim is your attempt to justify this action by implementing scripture to prove that your demands have justification. When all that is needed is to provide clear statements in scripture that describe same gender sexuality as being approved of. But, it is also a fact, that there is no such scriptures ever to be found.

99percent, I'm going to have to offer up each of the scriptures I presented in my OP one by one so that we can concentrate on the exegetical merits of each. I trust that you'll cooperate and not diverge into areas of red herrings, subterfuge and emotional outbursts. In fact, why WOULD you become so emotional and, at times, almost hysterical, about one's merely disagreeing with yours and mainstream Christianity's particular take on the print from a book? In fact, why HAS this topic become such a personal one to you? Because you love and respect God and the Bible characters SO much? No. I don't believe that. Not unless you're so fearful of an eternal fiery hell that you feel the need to defend the Bible and its human authors at all costs in order to stay in God's favor.

So, why DO you take this so personally ...?

This is an ad hom. I would care that this issue not exist at all. But I am forced to contend for the faith . . . by your personal attack on "mainstream Christianity."

Anyway, let's start at the very beginning . . .Leviticus 20:13. "If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Genesis is the beginning. Literally, the beginning.

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

- Genesis 1

For your Hebrew Scholar as well to do with it the only thing he can. There is no such thing as a positive treatment of same gender sexuality anywhere in the Tanakh. And certainly NOT the Torah. What you refer to as "homosexuality" in the 21st century.

Yikes! Wait a second. One more thing for Jewish/Hebrew scholarship:

Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.�

That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

- Genesis 2

Yikes! What do we make of this? Does this text speak of consensual intimacy between two males?

There is no such thing in the entire Bible. Even your "Jewish Scholar" has to admit that. And you do mean sexual behavior as you couch it in "consensual intimacy" correct? That the consequences "are on their heads" is a direct condemnation of your "consensual" aspect. Like I say, I didn't write the Bible. I just represent it honestly. No propaganda need apply. Nor be applied.

Just produce "pro gay" scriptures and you are done here KCKID. You and your Jewish Scholar too. Now, by the way, why aren't you espousing that LGBT's embrace Judaism in one of its many expressions if indeed there is such support for homosexuality "in the Bible?" Because there isn't any.

Does it reference two males who love each other and wish to commit themselves to one another in 'marriage'?

It is referencing homosexuality as we know it today. And graphically so. Unless you are trying to make of it two guys just talking through the night together. But then again, "lying with each other as a man lay with a woman????" looks to be a problem there as well.

Also, there is no such thing as same gender marriage in Israel, nor in The Church as referenced over and over again in the New Testament portion of the Christian Bible.

Does the text speak of consensual intimacy between two females? Does it reference two females who love each other and wish to commit themselves to one another in marriage? This text says NOTHING about females at all! JUST males. Why? Hmmm ...this alone should give us a few clues as to what this text does and does not speak of.

There is no such thing as same gender marriage for women anywhere in all of Israel. Not even a daughter in law to a mother in law.

Rather than to take the time typing out what can be seen and heard in less time than it takes to type and read, I present the below video which covers Leviticus 20:13 quite well. Presenting such visuals is quite commonplace in university or college forum debating settings. And, why not? It's only 8:27 minutes in length so it's hardly a distraction. And, it addresses the topic. The main reason why I have no hestation in presenting this video is because it was pretty well endorsed as being 'spot on' by a fellow member of this forum, who also happens to be a Jewish scholar, when I presented it in another thread several weeks ago. This pretty well means that you won't be able to justify the usual catch-cry "this video is not accurate but merely gay propaganda."

The propaganda of indoctrination methods is an age old tool. Just say it isn't propaganda before the film starts.

Just produce clear and unambiguous statements from scripture that defines same gender sex acts and marriage between two people of the same gender as being supported. In Genesis through the entire Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) there is no such thing as same gender marriage, nor any scripture that supports gay pride in the 21st century or the 2500 BC. The Israelites (for the Jewish/Hebrew scholars out there) were admonished NOT to take up the detestable practices of the peoples they would interact with.

Jesus, Paul and Peter, Jude and John, et al, knew the day would come when false teachers would be commonplace.

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

- 2 Timothy 4

They knew we would be insulted, denigrated and persecuted too:

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Inventing a new theology is never going to change that fact. Forcing believers to celebrate gay pride in their Churches is persecution. All the kings horses and all the kings men, in all the youtube videos on the internet cannot alter truth for a lie. And no amount of attacks on 99percentatheism is ever going to change the facts either.

There is no such thing as "same sex marriage," in the Bible . . . nor is there any declaration of support for homosexuality "as we know it today" in Christian theology (the New Testament), nor in all of Israel (Torah, Writings and Prophets: The Tanakh) from Moses to the last prophet mentioned in the "Old Testament."

That is not homophobia, nor is it hate speech. It is simply truth.

[dianaiad]

Why do you think homosexuality is a choice?

Because I am a human being and not a lower animal.

This is not an answer

Oh really? Al you woman parts somehow redesigned themselves? Or are we talking about your what is in your mind? If you enter this conversation with me, I get to ask rational questions to your choice behaviors.

Could you please show me where the rational parts of these questions are?

What are you demanding? Are you demanding that I, as a Christian, must live by your morality and your definition of what hate is? This whole labeling of Christian life as a homophobic hate crime is persecution.

And only seems to exist in your head.

Once again with feeling, you didn't choose to be hetero,you didn't choose to be hetero, you didn't choose to be hetero.

Aren't you a little annoyed that your god didn't give you the choice you claim he gave others. Your god obviously doesn't treat people fairly.

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[Heretic Gal]

Is it necessary for something to have existed in the past for it to be a good thing? Or to be approved of and permitted?

Most of the arguments about slavery leading up to the Civil War were religiously based, with both sides trying to prove that the Bible supported their views. But suppose it didn't? Suppose that nowhere in history could a civilization be found that had freed its slaves? Would that mean we could not do away with slavery?

No! What really happened is that the slaves THEMSELVES began to talk about their experiences and what slavery.meant to them. And more and more people listened to them, and began to base their views on how slavery actually affected the very real people living in it.

Similarly, why does it matter whether or not ancient civilizations and boos approved or disapproved of gay marriage? Why can't we develop arguments based on how real people actually live today? Whether or not the Bible or the Koran or the Book of the Church of What's Happenin' Now! approve or disapprove, can't we think for ourselves? Can't we listen to the gay people themselves, the ones who are.alive now and want to marry, and base our arguments on their very real experiences?

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 55 by 99percentatheism]

The above post, 99percent, is so far off track that I find it impossible to respond to it. This is clearly a common tactic that you use in order to avoid specific questions asked of you. The 'man lying with man being an abomination' part of Leviticus 20:13 (and 18:22) is the most infamous text from the Bible with regard to its alleged condemnation of homosexuality. It is also one of the most misunderstood and misinterpreted scriptures in the Bible. I offered up a short video (just 8.27 minutes in length) at this site that explains Leviticus 20:13 to the Christian what a Jew would probably already know. These texts of Leviticus - in fact every text in the Bible that references homosexual activity - has a direct reference to idolatry and shrine temple sex. Moreover, I believe that you and 'mainstream Christianity' already know this but you/they prefer to turn a convenient blind eye to the truth! It must be rather intimidating running an arrogant hate campaign based on fiction (intentional or unintentional) and then having someone come along exposing the fiction with actual facts.

It would appear, 99percent, that you have no intention of engaging in a level-headed discussion about the so-called 'clobber texts' of the Bible. And, I trust that the readers of this thread will take note of your reluctance to do so and take from it what they will. Meanwhile you will continue to demean and to dehumanize gay people with your hateful and deceptive message. I have more than a feeling that this topic has become such an obsession with you that you wouldn't want anything - even the truth! - to get in the way of this anti-gay crusade.

Shame on you.

[99percentatheism]

Heretic Gal

Is it necessary for something to have existed in the past for it to be a good thing? Or to be approved of and permitted?

Most of the arguments about slavery leading up to the Civil War were religiously based, with both sides trying to prove that the Bible supported their views. But suppose it didn't? Suppose that nowhere in history could a civilization be found that had freed its slaves? Would that mean we could not do away with slavery?

Are you really trying to equate being a slave to someone that desires to engage in same gender sex acts?

No! What really happened is that the slaves THEMSELVES began to talk about their experiences and what slavery.meant to them. And more and more people listened to them, and began to base their views on how slavery actually affected the very real people living in it.

Do you have any proof of that assertion?

Similarly, why does it matter whether or not ancient civilizations and boos approved or disapproved of gay marriage?

History forgotten is doomed to an encore.

Why can't we develop arguments based on how real people actually live today?

We Christians do. When someone repents of their sins and sinning we believe they are not caring what others think. They are simply welcomed into the faith as brothers ans sisters.

Whether or not the Bible or the Koran or the Book of the Church of What's Happenin' Now! approve or disapprove, can't we think for ourselves?

Can't people think for themselves without the LGBT community demanding to speak for all?

Can't we listen to the gay people themselves, the ones who are.alive now and want to marry, and base our arguments on their very real experiences?

Who is stopping you from inventing any new religion or social engineering organizations and programs based on how people "feel" about what they do?

Listening to people demanding to justify sin and sinning is simply not something Christians should be yoked with.

[otseng]

It would appear, 99percent, that you have no intention of engaging in a level-headed discussion about the so-called 'clobber texts' of the Bible.

Meanwhile you will continue to demean and to dehumanize gay people with your hateful and deceptive message. I have more than a feeling that this topic has become such an obsession with you that you wouldn't want anything - even the truth! - to get in the way of this anti-gay crusade.

Shame on you.[/color]

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