THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

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THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

Post #1

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Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.� I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality. I mean, if Christians REALLY desire to condemn ‘sin’ as they perceive it they could give homosexuals a break and instead have a field day targeting the many other human behaviors going on within society that God appears to hate. But …they don’t . . .well certainly not with the same zeal they do toward homosexuality.

So, what is going on here? Does the Bible really condemn sexual relations between consenting adults of the same gender? Or, does the Bible not address the matter of homosexuality at all …or, at least, not as we today recognize homosexuality? Would the Bible authors have even been aware of one’s innate sexuality as well as the complexities surrounding sexuality in general? Or, in simple terms, would they, as with many males of today, have regarded some males as 'effeminate' (or ‘sissies’) based on both ignorance and their own perceived cultural image of the ‘alpha male’? Or, if these authors were considered to be writing by divine authority, might we then say that God is the instigator of such ignorance and has allowed this ignorance to persist from generation to generation?

My main question in this thread is: of the ‘thimble-full’ of scriptures that are commonly used by Christians to condemn homosexuality (sexual attraction/desire directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex), how many of these texts might be considered to be far too ambiguous (open to several possible meanings or interpretations) to have caused such a furor within Christendom in general and specifically resulted in the division of a number of present-day Christian denominations? Can these few scriptures be analyzed so accurately that they can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to condemn homosexuality as we refer to the term today? I say no …they cannot. I’ve given my reasons in the past and will do so again if challenged.

Please discuss the below scriptures, as best you can, exegetically, i.e.
observation: what do the passages say?
interpretation: what do the passages mean?
correlation: how do the passages relate to the topic of homosexuality as we define it today?
application: how should these passages affect your/my life?

Note: I've purposely used the NIV for the following texts.


Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire . . .etc. (NIV)


Should there be other related Bible texts to the topic feel free to present them based on the above criteria for analysis. I purposely omitted the Sodom and Gomorrah saga since it's been done to death and quite clearly has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. However, likewise feel free to present that strange tale for discussion should you find it to be relevant.

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Re: THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

Post #41

Post by 99percentatheism »

Danmark
99percentatheism wrote:
Danmark
Finally !!!!!!!

One of you come out about pederasty. No ambiguity and no evasion.
'Finally' what? Does demonstrating poor punctuation by adding six superfluous exclamation marks constitute an effective argument? No it does not. You made the absurd and demonstrably inaccurate claim that homosexuality is something that has only recently appeared in human society.
Reread what I always write. "Gay" as well as "pride" the rainbow flag, homophobia, hate crime, LGBT et al, are all neologisms. And effective propaganda tactics as well. But if you want to continue that pederasty is also "gay pride" then you won't see me disagreeing with you.
You were completely wrong.
Obviously not.
Whether you call it 'gay pride' or 'homosexuality,' this very human phenomenon is one that has existed in society since our earliest records of our history.
And as can be seen by the date, has been opposed throughout human history as well.
Rather than admit you were wrong, you lapse back into your favorite motif: outrage about normal human behavior that has been an accepted part of society for as long as we have been documenting that history.
And as can be seen by the date, has been opposed throughout human history as well. Gay pride has only been a recent rebirth of the homosexual influence of society in just the last few decades. But like I said, if you want to highlight the desire for pederasty to be revisited as well, I'm sure the "pro family" Christian Church will immediately find a massive amount of support from millions and millions and millions of parents worldwide.

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Re: THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

Post #42

Post by Haven »

[color=green]99percentatheism[/color] wrote: And Paul was executed for good reasons then?
Of course not. Violence against someone for their religious views is reprehensible.
[color=olive]99%[/color] wrote: Then you are advocating for the wholesale outlawing of Christianity? Yes or no answer only please.
Of course not. The vast majority of Christians aren't virulently bigoted against the LGBTQ community, and so I'd see no reason to outlaw the Christian faith.

What should be outlawed is discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Believe gays are evil? Disgusting, but legal. Discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation or gender identity? Lose your business. It's that simple.
[color=indigo]99%[/color] wrote: Put blame where it belongs. Those suicides can be when the person enters the gay life every bit as much as trying to blame them on Christians.
There is no such thing as "entering the gay life." You either are gay or you aren't. Period.

Also, study after study has shown that the suicides result from the bigotry and abuse heaped upon gay kids by homophobic bullies and unaccepting families, not by "entering into the gay life."
[color=blue]99%[/color] wrote: You are defining Islam and Muslims.
Radical Christians have also carried out bombings, kidnappings, and subjugation of women. The problem is radicalism, not Christianity or Islam.
[color=darkred]99%[/color] wrote:The early Christians were called the "enemy of the human race" and Justice Scalia just pointed out that the same charge was resurrected by the Supreme Court decision about the gay women in New York. How fascinating. The justification of persecution of Christians being a civil rights issue of our time. And it seems one that people take pride in.

Of course.
The fact that you no longer have carte blanche to persecute others does not mean you are being persecuted.
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Re: THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

Post #43

Post by Danmark »

99percentatheism wrote:
There are more millions of Christians that oppose the homosexualization of The Church than there are gay pride activists trying to preach this different Gospel. It is not "my" opinion, it is simply what is in the New Testament and what isn't. There is not one shred of support in the New Testament for gay pride. That is just a fact.
If it is 'just a fact' then you should be able to easily prove it.

'53% of Australian Christians support same-sex marriage.'
http://www.australianmarriageequality.o ... -equality/

'Christian Right activists who give money, pressure politicians and organize against gay rights may think they’re accomplishing a couple of goals, like rolling back gay rights and asserting their religion’s primacy in American culture. Unfortunately for them (but fortunately for the rest of us), one of the things they’re doing in the long run is alienating their young people — not a good long-term strategy. Short-term victories like passing more bans on gay marriage, sometimes repeatedly in single states, might feel good for homophobic Christians, but in the long run, it’s their religion that will pay the ultimate price; available evidence shows that anti-gay activism is souring young people on Christianity.'
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/17/christi ... backfires/

Altho' the majority Christian segments of society in the U. S. continue to be opposed to gays and gay rights, the trend among Christians as well as the population in general, is acceptance of gay Christianity.
https://bhcc.digication.com/homosexuals ... ristianity

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Post #44

Post by 99percentatheism »

Princess Luna On The Moon wrote: [Replying to post 1 by 99percentatheism]
Persecution comes with the territory.

I've become used to it.

And obviously so has the community here. No one will report it if I don't.

And now I fully and completely regret apologizing. Arguing with you over homosexuality and religion is becoming most troublesome. It's getting us nowhere.
You don't think that forcing Christians to submit to gay authority is NOT persecution? The Romans did much the same thing at the very beginning of the Church era. And many Christians joined the Roman secularism and became like the pop culture of that day and age rather than to face persecution and loss of income and social status.

What is most troublesome is that homosexuals have what they want via secular laws all the way to the Supreme Court. But now the goal is to infiltrate Churches that will never ever accept and "affirm" homosexual behavior and force them by secular laws and bullying and labeling tactics to celebrate what is clearly identified as sin in the historic Church. Even the abortion rights movement didn't do that. I don't like to apologize to anyone here because yes, it is a waste of time. What isn't a waste of time is for gay pride activists to stop trying to force Christians to celebrate gay behavior. The rainbow flag will never fly over my denomination and millions of other Churches as well. We'd bulldoze down the buildings before submitting to gay rule. Please notice that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses built their own religious enclaves and left orthodox Christians alone. Homosexuals can build and create their own religious organizations and build their own places to do their church business with not one obstacle in their way for doing it. I think it would be fascinating to see how many of their secular supporters would attend their gay churches.

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Post #45

Post by Haven »

[color=brown]99percentatheism[/color] wrote: You don't think that forcing Christians to submit to gay authority is NOT persecution?
You keep using this nonsense phrase ("gay authority"), but you've never defined it. What do you mean by "gay authority" and why do you think "Christians" (by which I can only assume you're referring to radical fundamentalists) are being forced to submit to it?
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Post #46

Post by Princess Luna On The Moon »

[Replying to post 2 by 99percentatheism]
You don't think that forcing Christians to submit to gay authority is NOT persecution? The Romans did much the same thing at the very beginning of the Church era. And many Christians joined the Roman secularism and became like the pop culture of that day and age rather than to face persecution and loss of income and social status.

What is most troublesome is that homosexuals have what they want via secular laws all the way to the Supreme Court. But now the goal is to infiltrate Churches that will never ever accept and "affirm" homosexual behavior and force them by secular laws and bullying and labeling tactics to celebrate what is clearly identified as sin in the historic Church. Even the abortion rights movement didn't do that. I don't like to apologize to anyone here because yes, it is a waste of time. What isn't a waste of time is for gay pride activists to stop trying to force Christians to celebrate gay behavior. The rainbow flag will never fly over my denomination and millions of other Churches as well. We'd bulldoze down the buildings before submitting to gay rule. Please notice that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses built their own religious enclaves and left orthodox Christians alone. Homosexuals can build and create their own religious organizations and build their own places to do their church business with not one obstacle in their way for doing it. I think it would be fascinating to see how many of their secular supporters would attend their gay churches.

Seriously, what is this 'gay authority?' Also, 'secular law' isn't forcing Christians to really do anything. The church should have no political say. The US is not a Christian nation and never was. Religion should hold no effect on the passing of laws. And I don't want a bloody church. I'd like the freedom to get married to anyone I choose within my state without having to travel across the country to a more progressive state that already realizes how useless a ban on gay marriage is. You ramble on and on about gay authorities and infiltrating historic churches. What are you trying to get at? What is a gay authority??
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Re: THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

Post #47

Post by 99percentatheism »

Danmark
99percentatheism wrote:
There are more millions of Christians that oppose the homosexualization of The Church than there are gay pride activists trying to preach this different Gospel. It is not "my" opinion, it is simply what is in the New Testament and what isn't. There is not one shred of support in the New Testament for gay pride. That is just a fact.
If it is 'just a fact' then you should be able to easily prove it.
How many Christians are there on the African continent?
'53% of Australian Christians support same-sex marriage.'
http://www.australianmarriageequality.o ... -equality/
Australia? Progressive fruit bearing its consequences.
'Christian Right activists who give money, pressure politicians and organize against gay rights may think they’re accomplishing a couple of goals, like rolling back gay rights and asserting their religion’s primacy in American culture. Unfortunately for them (but fortunately for the rest of us), one of the things they’re doing in the long run is alienating their young people — not a good long-term strategy.
Since I number in the Prop 8 support groups, the message that we are sending to our youth will be realized when chaos becomes depravity. It's not like this hasn't happened before. France has Christians once again on its soil. One would have thought that the enlightenment and the slaughters of the French revolution, just a pile of decades ago would have wiped away The Church permanently.
Short-term victories like passing more bans on gay marriage, sometimes repeatedly in single states, might feel good for homophobic Christians, but in the long run, it’s their religion that will pay the ultimate price; available evidence shows that anti-gay activism is souring young people on Christianity.'
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/17/christi ... backfires/
Homophobic Christians? You mean like Paul, Peter, John, James, Jude and the rest of the witnesses in the New Testament?
Altho' the majority Christian segments of society in the U. S. continue to be opposed to gays and gay rights, the trend among Christians as well as the population in general, is acceptance of gay Christianity.

https://bhcc.digication.com/homosexuals ... ristianity
So you admit that I am right about the numbers. I hope you don't think that I really believe that things won't get worse for The Church do you? The "falling away" of the believers is a matter of reality.

You may be confusing tolerance for acceptance. I myself "support" gay marriage because it is the law of the land. But I do not accept or will ever affirm it. Nor will I ever. No different than abortion and adultery, buying porn and supporting legalizing drugs. And you need to notice also that divorce and adultery among "Christians" mirrors the secular population. So the pronouncement that a modern Christian population has become no different than the non and anti Christian population is far more a reflection of a problem in The Church and a realization of what prophecy has always been about. The separating of the wheat from the chaff is a matter of fact as well. That many in the Church have become homosexualized may be more a matter of survival than a stance for change. And this is all something amazingly new to society. The backlash and repercussions to come will be prophetic. As has been shown in these threads, the rise of homosexuality occurs throughout history only to be driven back again and again. We are all just part of a pendulum affect of history. And the rise of homosexual pride and the celebration of homosexuality comes with the rise of the rejection of Christianity and certainly not a "great religious awakening" of the populace. There is no great rush of the secular population to embrace gay Christianity. It looks decidedly to be heading in the other direction. As secularism spreads homosexualization of society grows.

By the way, How many followers were with Jesus at the foot of the Cross?

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Post #48

Post by 99percentatheism »

Haven wrote:
[color=brown]99percentatheism[/color] wrote: You don't think that forcing Christians to submit to gay authority is NOT persecution?
You keep using this nonsense phrase ("gay authority"), but you've never defined it. What do you mean by "gay authority" and why do you think "Christians" (by which I can only assume you're referring to radical fundamentalists) are being forced to submit to it?
You keep using the nonsense phrases homophobia, homophobic etc., etc.. And that whackadoodle phrase radical fundamentalism to describe pro family, pro marriage Christians. That makes Jesus a Fundy. Which of course he was. But radical in a negative connotation is impossible. Except as persecution.

Gay authority is the secular laws being used by gay activists to persecute Christians into affirming gay behavior. The Benham brothers are the latest victims of this authority. In my opinion, although not quite a Christian organization, the Boy Scouts of America is probably the largest group harrassed by way of gay authority. But Focus On the Family, an amazingly fantastic organization is a great example of a persecuted Christian group via gay authority.
Last edited by 99percentatheism on Sat May 17, 2014 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

Post #49

Post by KCKID »

99percentatheism wrote:
KCKID wrote:
99percentatheism wrote: KCKID
Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.�
It is an abomination, not just a sin. It is behavior that exists outside of the worldview and life described for people that follow the God of Abraham. There is no compatibility with same gender sex acts and what is supposed to be acceptable sexuality for a man and woman/husband and wife. Choosing to engage in homosexuality is a choice that has consequences.
I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality.
Too bad. If you do not want to consider the religious choices of others than you are daringly close to persecution of the faithful. There is no such thing as positive homosexuality anywhere in the Bible.

And in any event, if this is a personal issue for you, which you just define that it is . . . invent your own religion or find solace in organizations that celebrate and encourage people to engage in homosexuality and allow others the right to reject your new religious demands.
'Fraid not on this thread, 99percent.

99percentatheism wrote:Is this the same thing as saying "Nuh-uh?" Because what I wrote is indeed very sensible in light of your historic margins and propaganda techniques employed as such.
I referred to specific criteria in my OP that entailed exegetical analysis of the scriptures presented that are typically used by Christians to condemn homosexuality. As usual, you choose to skirt around the criteria specified and would, it seems, prefer to turn the thread into a typical 'them and us' rant. I was hoping to avoid this.
There's criteria to be followed - which you haven't - and so the above by you is not worth reading. How about you try again? We've heard a lot from you over the months with regard to your blanket condemnation of homosexuality as per, YOU say, the Bible.
99percentatheism wrote:So then you DO read my posts. Which are honest and sensible rebuttals to liberal and gay theology.
Of course I read your posts. In this thread I'm not so much interested in what YOU deem to be honest and sensible rebuttals to liberal and gay authority ...UNLESS you can show support of such through an exegetical analysis of the Bible texts that I presented.
This is your big chance to give an analysis of the actual scriptures I presented with which to affirm your 'Christian' stance on this issue.
99percentatheism wrote:Some of which you learned from me. The entire Bible "affirms" my Christian stance on the issue and YOU have to appeal to a 20th and 21st gay pride movement to "affirm" yours. WHO is the "WE" of YOUR understanding of same gender sex acts "as YOU understand it today?" Of course gay pride activists and liberal theologians.
I must admit that I'd never previously seen or heard the book of Jude offered up as an anti-gay text. So, yes ...I DID get that from you. As for my supposedly appealing to a so-called 20th and 21st century gay pride movement as being the driving force behind my support of equality for homosexual folk, that's a totally unjustified claim. I offered up those very scriptures you so often flaunt here on this forum so that 'we' could determine once and for all (through exegetical analysis) whether they do, in fact, condemn our present understanding of homosexuality. You had and still have the opportunity to do just that. And, if you CAN prove that these texts DO INDEED tally with your take on this issue then wouldn't that serve your purpose?
99percentatheism wrote:When you take into consideration the description of what Onan did "in the Bible" it is clear that "the Bible" knows what biology and anatomy is and what is sexual behavior and what isn't.
If you're referring to 'wasted seed' as in Onan ...aren't heterosexuals guilty of the same 'sin' whenever they perform 'non-procreative' sex? If not, can you explain why not ...? Recreational sex sounds very much like 'wasted seed' (according to scripture) to me.
Personally, I don't believe that they pertain to homosexuality as we refer to it nowadays at all. But, by all means, prove me wrong.
99percentatheism wrote:Prove what wrong? Your "personal opinions????
Gee, you love to highlight your utter disdain for something by stuttering with your "?" marks, don't you? But, no, I presented the scriptures in order that we (whoever) could analyze them exegetically so that we could, hopefully, eliminate our personal opinions ...even though ambiguous texts probably require an element of speculation. We can probably blame the Bible authors for this situation.
99percentatheism wrote:I have never veered from your rights to define your morality
My morality? What do YOU know about my moralty? My take on this particular matter has nothing to do with morality but rather Bible exegesis. Man, I have never before used the term 'exegesis' to the extent that I have in this thread. To those who like myself had no idea what the word meant until a few years ago, it simply means 'a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especiallly a religious text.'
99percentatheism wrote:AND your new theology any way you enjoy to do it. YOU are entitled to your opinion from now and forever. But you are not entitled to redefine "the faith delivered only once to the saints" and force others to follow your new inventions. Well, I guess you CAN force people to do it, but "in my opinion" that would be persecution of The Church.
Perhaps fancy words, perhaps not ...in any event I'm still waiting for you to give a 'critical explanation or interpretation' of those scriptures that I presented. "I" don't believe that they interpret what you and "mainstream Christianity" claim that they interpret. I'll tell you why later but, for now, I'm placing the onus on YOU to define those scriptures to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that you and "the Church" are legit in using them to condemn homosexuality per se*. After all, it IS you and they that are doing the condemning WITH those particular scriptures.

*refering to one's innate sexual attraction toward the same gender as opposed to pagan worship practices associated with idolatry.
Last edited by KCKID on Sun May 18, 2014 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

Post #50

Post by Danmark »

99percentatheism wrote: So you admit that I am right about the numbers. I hope you don't think that I really believe that things won't get worse for The Church do you? The "falling away" of the believers is a matter of reality.

You may be confusing tolerance for acceptance. I myself "support" gay marriage because it is the law of the land. But I do not accept or will ever affirm it. Nor will I ever. No different than abortion and adultery, buying porn and supporting legalizing drugs. And you need to notice also that divorce and adultery among "Christians" mirrors the secular population. So the pronouncement that a modern Christian population has become no different than the non and anti Christian population is far more a reflection of a problem in The Church and a realization of what prophecy has always been about....
Since you are obviously contradicting yourself, I do not know what you are saying. You claim to support gay marriage while at the same time you say you will never accept it. These appear to be opposite positions.

And no, I do not agree you are 'right about the numbers.' The point is not whether more Christians accept gay Christians or not. The issue is that a substantial number of Christians accept gay Christians, and that the trend among Christians is that an increasing number of Christians accept gays into their fellowship.

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