Should people "shack-up" before marriage?

[Nickman]

I personally think that when two adults shack-up prior to marriage, they have a better chance of staying married and avoid divorce. This I have concluded from my own logic and experience. If we get to know a person prior to marriage on that level we are able to make a better decision about whether or not we can be married to that person. If we don't shack-up we won't be able to see how that person truly is in that setting. Christians tend to be against shacking-up which I feel has led to the statistics showing that they are more susceptible to divorce than atheists who do tend to shack-up.

What do you say? Should we shack up? Is it beneficial? If not why not?

P.S. Just because "god said so" is not a good answer. Please provide why it is harmful or wrong and the potential problem it could cause.

[Nickman]

The Carfax model ought not work as my goal is for my daughter to grow up and be responsible. Regardless of whom she marries, she can be content and she can do so without any prior sexual experience. My first choice would be to choose a husband for my daughter so as to make the mesh of the two families more intentional. My first daughter married a boy whose parents are left-over pot-heads and we routinely are bombarded with references to the dad's glory days.

Please bear in mind that I cannot abdicate my responsibility to lead my family and could not be expected to do anything less for my daughters.

What is the reason for no sex before marriage and no shacking-up? What does this teach them?

Why would you choose a husband for your daughter? She's the one who has to sleep with him and live with him. Isn't this her responsibility? Can she not be trusted to choose a good mate by shacking-up in order to make a better decision?

How can a person who doesn't shack-up have a proper understanding of who they are marrying? In what way is "not shacking-up" more beneficial? What would be the problems of shacking-up? Or is shacking-up just a belief you hold without any real reason to think it is "wrong" or problematic?

I’m quite certain that the similarities between purchasing a car and taking a marriage partner are dissimilar. My wife and I did not live together prior to our marriage and therefore I know that it is not relevant. My daughter may have ideas lurking in the back of her mind as I’ve heard that argument about testing things out before marriage commitment. It is my assumption that she respects my opinion and is in need of my support and as such she has not objected to honoring my wishes. The young man who visits our house is Eric and he has taken a genuine interest in our family. I would like Eric to marry my daughter and I intend to tell him this whenever I meet him next year.

You haven't answered my questions.

How can a person who doesn't shack-up have a proper understanding of who they are marrying? In what way is "not shacking-up" more beneficial? What would be the problems of shacking-up? Or is shacking-up just a belief you hold without any real reason to think it is "wrong" or problematic?

To add, the car model is relevant to the discussion. Just because you were able to find someone you were compatible with doesn't detract from the fact that you went into it without a full knowledge. Just like buying a car, even if you don't look at the carfax doesn't mean the car can't be reliable and last. The reasonable thing to do though is not risk it and get all the information just like shacking-up

I have been married for quite a while and I have yet to have a proper understanding of my wife. She remains a mystery to me and I would like to continue interaction with her that I know her better.

I would rather not my children use the genitals of another for the sake of "compatibility" as it relates to preference or whatever. I have yet to understand how prior knowledge of physical sex and sex performance can prove to make for a better marriage. To that end I could ask "Are you physically able to produce children?" If she states "yes" then I would take her as a wife. As I took a wife, it never occurred to me to ask if she were mutilated or deformed in some way and yet now we have children and grandchildren.

My topic isn't about sex before marriage, although I think it is best. The topic and the questions I am asking you are pertaining to shacking-up. So here I ask you one last time. Please answer these according to shacking-up, not about sex before marriage.

How can a person who doesn't shack-up have a proper understanding of who they are marrying? In what way is "not shacking-up" more beneficial? What would be the problems of shacking-up? Or is shacking-up just a belief you hold without any real reason to think it is "wrong" or problematic?

As I stated earlier, the car analogy is very relevant. It matters not if two people marry without shacking up and never divorce. There are cases where you will find a suitable mate without shacking-up. Just like buying a car without checking with a mechanic or the Carfax, you can in fact get a good car. The question, though, is if it is a good idea to buy a car without a thorough examination? The same goes for marriage, is it good to jump into marriage without a thorough examination? In this case "shacking-up" to see if you are compatible? If you wouldn't purchase a car without getting all the facts and testing its reliability, then why would you get married to someone you barely know anything about. Living with someone is analogous to seeing a mechanic or reading the Carfax, and reveals more than you would have known about the person had you not lived together.

What is the best approach? Shack-up to verify compatibility, or leave it to chance?

I personally would want my children to test everything before making a decision, especially one so serious as marriage. You cannot make a good assessment about a person and your compatibility in a life long commitment if you don't even know their personal daily habits and how you both comingle together under the same roof.

[Moses Yoder]

I personally think that when two adults shack-up prior to marriage, they have a better chance of staying married and avoid divorce. This I have concluded from my own logic and experience. If we get to know a person prior to marriage on that level we are able to make a better decision about whether or not we can be married to that person. If we don't shack-up we won't be able to see how that person truly is in that setting. Christians tend to be against shacking-up which I feel has led to the statistics showing that they are more susceptible to divorce than atheists who do tend to shack-up.

What do you say? Should we shack up? Is it beneficial? If not why not?

P.S. Just because "god said so" is not a good answer. Please provide why it is harmful or wrong and the potential problem it could cause.

My daughter is 22 years old. She wouldn't do this (shack-up) out respect for herself and for us.

How would cohabitation indicate a lack of respect for herself or you? I can see how it might indicate lack of respect for your values.

Yes, exactly that.

Lack of respect for values? How is shacking-up a lack of respect for values?

In order to get a full understanding of whether or not we are compatible with another human being in a union of marriage, we need to "shack-up" and experience that person in that type of setting. Would you jump right into an investment without finding out the details? Would you buy a car without a test drive or a look at the Carfax? No. The same logic can be applied to pre-marriage. I think we would see a decrease in divorce worldwide if we followed this simple logic of getting to know your partner by "shacking-up". The statistics show that the religious who hold the idea of not "shacking-up" divorce more often that atheists who do "shack-up". The whole idea of not shacking-up and no sex before marriage comes from primitive cultures long before us who valued a woman's virginity as an asset they can sell. A father couldn't trade off his daughter if she was not a virgin and therefore he wouldn't receive a payment for her. This is historical fact that daughters were traded to men in marriage for compensation. The bible even endorses this behavior by allowing men to sell their daughters at the age of 12 years and 1 day. If they were not virgins then they were worthless. What we have now is a watered down version of that same mentality. All of this no sex before marriage applied to women only not men. Women were property and had no rights back then.

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society and shacking-up shouldn't be shunned by the religious (it is only you guys who oppose it). Instead, people who want to shack-up should be seen as intelligent and rational. Those that don't shack-up should be looked at as irrational and naive, getting themselves into a situation without examining the risks and problems.

Would you think a person is acting irrational and naive if they just listen to a car salesman and buy a car without a test drive or a thorough examination? Why wouldn't you apply this same logic to something even more serious and important than buying a car? Oh yeah, its that whole irrational religion thing, I get it. Just do as your told, don't ask questions.

Please note I was going to report your post for proselytizing, which is against the rules here, but that is not an option in the report so I let it go. Basically you are telling me I need to change my viewpoint so it matches yours, regardless of how I feel about it and regardless of the evidence I find. That is proselytizing, something you accuse Christians of doing. I posted a link from the New York Times which spoke of the detriment of cohabitation. Now you post figures (with no link to the actual study to reinforce your evidence I might add) saying atheists divorce less than Christians. Somehow you have jumped to the conclusion it is because they all cohabitate before marriage. Please provide evidence for your claim that cohabitation results in a lower divorce rate.

I find your comparison of buying a car to marrying a woman amusing. Did the car salesman allow you to keep the car a few years before purchasing? A few months maybe? Did you change oil in the car, buy new tires for it, and do a flush and fill?Change the transmission fluid? My brother-in-law is a certified mechanic. When I am looking to buy an older used car, I take him with me and he checks out the car for me. I drive the car for 10 or 15 minutes to see how I like it. Then I make the decision to buy or not. Perhaps I should hire a psychologist the next time I am looking for a wife, and a sex therapist. The psychologist could check otu her head for me and report back, the sex therapist could have sex with her and report back. Then I could make the decision to marry or not. Less divorce!

I dated my wife for nearly 2 years before marrying her. I met her on July 31, 1988. A month later on August 18 was my birthday and she gave me a counted cross stitch piece she had made that probably took her a hundred hours to make. I said I couldn't accept it but she insisted. Later on she said her friend Karen told her she was crazy for giving it away but my Meg said she knew she would get it back. It hangs in our house now. What are the qualifications for a compatible spouse, and how do you measure them? With a tire pressure gauge? Maybe the little weight on top of the pressure cooker?

[Moses Yoder]

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society

Please provide evidence for this claim that we live in a more sophisticated and ideal society or retract the claim. I will accept scientific studies that are published on the web. I will not accept someone's opinion.

[Nickman]

Please note I was going to report your post for proselytizing, which is against the rules here, but that is not an option in the report so I let it go.

Are you freaking serious? In what way did I proselytize in my post? Please tell me what you think is considered proselytizing in my post.

Basically you are telling me I need to change my viewpoint so it matches yours, regardless of how I feel about it and regardless of the evidence I find. That is proselytizing, something you accuse Christians of doing.

Please show me where I told you to change anything to match mine? You have nothing and seem offended because I showed shacking up to be a reasonable and logical thing to do. Boo hoo

I posted a link from the New York Times which spoke of the detriment of cohabitation. Now you post figures (with no link to the actual study to reinforce your evidence I might add) saying atheists divorce less than Christians. Somehow you have jumped to the conclusion it is because they all cohabitate before marriage. Please provide evidence for your claim that cohabitation results in a lower divorce rate.

I did source my stats from the Barna survey. Anyone can google the word BARNA AND DIVORCE and find it at the top of the results. I also sourced the quote from a prominent atheist. I never said that cohabitation was the primary reason and that all factors have not been considered. All I did was post the results of the survey with the source from which I got the results, i.e. the Barna survey. Just because it doesn't have a hyperlink doesn't mean it is not sourced and that you cannot research the survey. Google the source I provided. There is only one.

I find your comparison of buying a car to marrying a woman amusing. Did the car salesman allow you to keep the car a few years before purchasing? A few months maybe? Did you change oil in the car, buy new tires for it, and do a flush and fill?Change the transmission fluid? My brother-in-law is a certified mechanic. When I am looking to buy an older used car, I take him with me and he checks out the car for me. I drive the car for 10 or 15 minutes to see how I like it. Then I make the decision to buy or not. Perhaps I should hire a psychologist the next time I am looking for a wife, and a sex therapist. The psychologist could check otu her head for me and report back, the sex therapist could have sex with her and report back. Then I could make the decision to marry or not. Less divorce!

You blew the analogy way out of proportion while also proving my point. It's rather ironic.

You said you take your brother-in-law with you to get a good assessment, which is a rational thing to do. The same goes for finding a mate. Before marriage if you don't shack-up it's like not taking your brother-in-law with you to a dealership. If it is rational to get all the facts before buying a car, it is also rational to test and confirm your compatibility with your mate before getting to the point of marriage.

How can you truly know that you will be compatible with your mate if you have never lived under the same roof? It is a whole different ballgame when you actually start living with that person. You truly learn what that person, and who that person truly is. You may get married without shacking-up and realize that this person is not everything you thought they were, by then it is too late.

I dated my wife for nearly 2 years before marrying her. I met her on July 31, 1988. A month later on August 18 was my birthday and she gave me a counted cross stitch piece she had made that probably took her a hundred hours to make. I said I couldn't accept it but she insisted. Later on she said her friend Karen told her she was crazy for giving it away but my Meg said she knew she would get it back. It hangs in our house now. What are the qualifications for a compatible spouse, and how do you measure them? With a tire pressure gauge? Maybe the little weight on top of the pressure cooker?

As I have posted previously, in regards to the car analogy, you may get a really good car even if you don't test it out first and get the Carfax, but this is taking a risk. Same goes for marriage, you may get someone that you are compatible with, without doing your research. In both cases, however, you are taking unnecessary risks and for what and why? A belief? It is more reasonable and logical to do everything you can to ensure that what you are getting into is legit, compatible, reliable, and what you think it is at face value.

So if you wouldn't buy a car without getting the facts, then why would you take a risk or chance on something more serious such as marriage? The simple solution is to actually shack-up and see if you and your mate can live together. Some people may be the "perfect" couple while dating, but once they get married or shack-up this perfect couple is not so perfect anymore, and if you marry its already too late.

[Nickman]

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society

Please provide evidence for this claim that we live in a more sophisticated and ideal society or retract the claim. I will accept scientific studies that are published on the web. I will not accept someone's opinion.

Sophisticated- 1. Having acquired worldly knowledge or refinement; lacking natural simplicity or naiveté. 2. Very complex or complicated:

This definition itself describes the world we live in currently. So, yes, we are more sophisticated as a society than we were in the bronze age.

It is ideal because everyone in our American society has the ability to create their own purpose and goals without someone or thing telling them what they can and can't do pertaining to marriage (the exception is homosexuals due to religious pressure against this minority group).

In bible times a couple could be stoned for shacking up. We don't have to worry about that today. People can and do shack-up which allows them greater insight into their relationships without fear of being stoned or persecuted. The rational thing to do before marriage is to shack-up.

[dianaiad]

From the Barna survey

Variation in divorce rates by religion: Religion % have been divorced Jews 30% Born-again Christians 27% Other Christians 24% Atheists, Agnostics 21%


Ron Barrier, Spokesperson for American Atheists
He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage."

Dumb. In order to get divorced, you first have to GET MARRIED. These statistics don't count shack up breakups.

Now you have been advising people to do just that; shack up before they marry to see if it will work out. Now tell me; when and if it doesn't work out, and one of you moves out, is that breakup going to appear on the divorce statistics?

Answer, why no, Diana, they don't.

In other words, it's like telling the judge that you have never bought illegal drugs in your life; you just give the money to your friend and HE buys them for you.

Highly inaccurate and deliberately deceptive; and the actual statistics show that people who shack up and then marry are nearly a fourth again as likely to divorce as those who marry and THEN live together.

[Moses Yoder]

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society and shacking-up shouldn't be shunned by the religious (it is only you guys who oppose it). Instead, people who want to shack-up should be seen as intelligent and rational. Those that don't shack-up should be looked at as irrational and naive, getting themselves into a situation without examining the risks and problems.

Here I have put in bold where you tell me I should have the same opinion as you and if not I should be viewed as irrational and naive. What kind of person thinks like that?

[Moses Yoder]

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society

Please provide evidence for this claim that we live in a more sophisticated and ideal society or retract the claim. I will accept scientific studies that are published on the web. I will not accept someone's opinion.

Sophisticated- 1. Having acquired worldly knowledge or refinement; lacking natural simplicity or naiveté. 2. Very complex or complicated:

This definition itself describes the world we live in currently. So, yes, we are more sophisticated as a society than we were in the bronze age.

It is ideal because everyone in our American society has the ability to create their own purpose and goals without someone or thing telling them what they can and can't do pertaining to marriage (the exception is homosexuals due to religious pressure against this minority group).

In bible times a couple could be stoned for shacking up. We don't have to worry about that today. People can and do shack-up which allows them greater insight into their relationships without fear of being stoned or persecuted. The rational thing to do before marriage is to shack-up.

Below is a list of the seven wonders of the ancient world.

Pyramids of Egypt
Colossus of Rhodes
Hanging Gardens of Babylon
Mauseoleum at Halicanassus
Pharos Lighthouse of Alexandria
Statue of Zeus at Olympia
Temple of Artemis at Ephesus

What is being built today that compares to these? I take note of your opinion and have now provided evidence to the contrary.

[dianaiad]

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society

Please provide evidence for this claim that we live in a more sophisticated and ideal society or retract the claim. I will accept scientific studies that are published on the web. I will not accept someone's opinion.

Sophisticated- 1. Having acquired worldly knowledge or refinement; lacking natural simplicity or naiveté. 2. Very complex or complicated:

This definition itself describes the world we live in currently. So, yes, we are more sophisticated as a society than we were in the bronze age.

It is ideal because everyone in our American society has the ability to create their own purpose and goals without someone or thing telling them what they can and can't do pertaining to marriage (the exception is homosexuals due to religious pressure against this minority group).

In bible times a couple could be stoned for shacking up. We don't have to worry about that today. People can and do shack-up which allows them greater insight into their relationships without fear of being stoned or persecuted. The rational thing to do before marriage is to shack-up.

You keep arguing that. However, it has long been known, proven in every single study done, amof, that people who cohabitate before marriage a: are less likely to marry the person they are shacking up with (at least 40% of shackups end in a breakup) and those who do shack up before marriage are more likely to divorce within the first seven years than those who marry first.

Evidently that isn't true for one specific group; those who get engaged, move in together and THEN marry are no more likely to divorce than those who don't live together before the wedding.

What does that mean in terms of your numbers? Let's see; 40% of shackups break up, considerably over.. Neil Bennet, in Psychology today, reports that 80% of women who shack up are going to break up with, or divorce, their first 'housemate.' Of course, unless we have a WHOLE bunch of serial 'shackup' guys who go from virgin to virgin, that means that the numbers for men are equally problematic.

Basically, then, your argument regarding the advisability of living together before marriage is based on...what...wishful thinking? Ideology...what you would LIKE things to be?

Here's the deal: there is no study, anywhere in the USA or the UK, that indicates how living together before marriage is GOOD for marriage, or makes eventual marriage stronger, or lowers the divorce rate. The most you can say is that if you get engaged (are committed to marry one another) and then move in together before the wedding, your chances of staying married are the same as those who marry first.



Ironic.

[Goat]

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society

Please provide evidence for this claim that we live in a more sophisticated and ideal society or retract the claim. I will accept scientific studies that are published on the web. I will not accept someone's opinion.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... -ever.html