Christian marriage is man and woman/husband and wife.

[99percentatheism]

There is no secular or theological challenge to be made that a "Christian marriage" isn't immutably a man and woman/husband and wife. Therefore, it should be a criminal act under current hate crimes laws, to accuse a Christian of hate, bigotry, or irrational . . ., if they assert the immutability of the structure of marriage as man and woman/husband and wife.

As Jesus proclaimed it in the Gospels and the writings reaffirm and define it so.

Why would anyone, religious or secularist, NOT support and affirm Christians adhering to the consistent and immutable Biblical teaching that a marriage is a man/husband and woman/wife?

[keithprosser3]

The point of this thread is that anyone that is honest about Christian history in and outside of the New Testament . . . should at least acknowledge that rejecting unrepentant people that engage in homosexuality, and Christians that reject the spread and celebration of gay sex in a Christian context . . . are not guilty of bigotry or hate, or any other kind of hate crime . . . but are only in keeping with the sound theology, ethics and honesty in the New Testament.

My point is that your points are already been taken on board. In the UK (at least) legislators have upheld the right of individual Christians or Christian organisations to not recognise same sex marriages. Indeed they have explicitly denied the CofE the power to do same-sex marriage.

Nor is there any thing I can find that suggests objecting to gay marriage is going to be legislated as a hate crime. Refusal to sanction a same sex marriage is explicitly excluded as a grounds for being sued.

I doubt things are any more liberal in the US or Canada.

What more do you want?

[99percentatheism]

The point of this thread is that anyone that is honest about Christian history in and outside of the New Testament . . . should at least acknowledge that rejecting unrepentant people that engage in homosexuality, and Christians that reject the spread and celebration of gay sex in a Christian context . . . are not guilty of bigotry or hate, or any other kind of hate crime . . . but are only in keeping with the sound theology, ethics and honesty in the New Testament.

My point is that your points are already been taken on board. In the UK (at least) legislators have upheld the right of individual Christians or Christian organisations to not recognise same sex marriages. Indeed they have explicitly denied the CofE the power to do same-sex marriage.

Nor is there any thing I can find that suggests objecting to gay marriage is going to be legislated as a hate crime. Refusal to sanction a same sex marriage is explicitly excluded as a grounds for being sued.

I doubt things are any more liberal in the US or Canada.

What more do you want?

Since I have been involved very seriously in this war against the Church by LGBT forces, I doubt highly that LGBT activist organizations are going to sit by idly and allow Christians to continue to preach and teach that gay behavior is immutably sinful and antithetical to Christian truth. It looks very much like LGBT forces are gearing up for a run at silencing The Church.

What we see is that hate crimes laws have tentacles which reach (or overreach actually) into secula life where Christians are made to shut up anywhere they go that isn't the closed doors of their Churches.

The OP, makes it clear that labeling Christians and Pastors in Churches that preach against gay sex should be a hate crime in itself. No differently then demanding that Christians "equate" voodoo with the Gospel.

But history doesn't show us that licentiousness rears its ugly head and goes away quietly into the night. Although I see the prophetic in the rise of celebrating the act of homosexuality by society at large (as in bad/evil), it is of course attached to an embracing of the populace of godlessness and the liberal trappings of universalism.

I have a little faith left that, as the French pulled themselves out of the decadence, lasciviousness and madness of a secularized France (of the enlightenment to revolutionary-beheadings en masse . . . ), that maybe the westernized world will see the horrors of embracing a secularism that is no different than any other "anything goes" moral-madness of past socieities and pull itself out of the spiritual abyss that is coming to light now. But things do look different now. There seems a madness that has taken over the world now that may not be able to be stopped.

The experiment of redefining the family into whatever two sexual lovers decide it is and isn't, may indeed be the undoing of modern society. But, like I have heard it said many times, if all the bad stuff in the Bible is true (which it looks to be), then all of the good stuff is real too. We Christians that reject what we have come to learn is the nonsense of godlessness and the unhealthiness of decadence and licentiousness (and especially of trying to redefine it as a civil rights demand), even when wrapped in so-called Christian garb, may be seen by some hardcore secularists as a kind of immorality-antibody to contend against the sickness (physical, mental and spiritual) that appears to be seriously affecting western society.

[keithprosser3]

Are you talking in purely theological terms? If you want to prevent Christian churches - or even individual Christians - from thinking homosexuality is not a 'sin' that is one thing. But you may be requiring that it goes further than that and that homosexuality should also be disallowed in secular society.

What theology says about homosexuality is as relevant to reality as is what it says about the number of angels that can dance on the point of a needle. As I said for Christians the theology of homosexuality is a matter for their individual conscience.

But when you are talking about applying a religious principle in the secular sphere then you are flirting with theocracy and the separation of church and state.

[Goat]

The point of this thread is that anyone that is honest about Christian history in and outside of the New Testament . . . should at least acknowledge that rejecting unrepentant people that engage in homosexuality, and Christians that reject the spread and celebration of gay sex in a Christian context . . . are not guilty of bigotry or hate, or any other kind of hate crime . . . but are only in keeping with the sound theology, ethics and honesty in the New Testament.

My point is that your points are already been taken on board. In the UK (at least) legislators have upheld the right of individual Christians or Christian organisations to not recognise same sex marriages. Indeed they have explicitly denied the CofE the power to do same-sex marriage.

Nor is there any thing I can find that suggests objecting to gay marriage is going to be legislated as a hate crime. Refusal to sanction a same sex marriage is explicitly excluded as a grounds for being sued.

I doubt things are any more liberal in the US or Canada.

What more do you want?

Since I have been involved very seriously in this war against the Church by LGBT forces, I doubt highly that LGBT activist organizations are going to sit by idly and allow Christians to continue to preach and teach that gay behavior is immutably sinful and antithetical to Christian truth. It looks very much like LGBT forces are gearing up for a run at silencing The Church.

I personally don't see any 'war' against the Church by 'LGBT forces'. That is just plain paranoia . What it sounds to me like ' Oh, they want to be treated like humans, so they are picking on me'.

I think there is something wrong with people insisting that THEIR rights are being trampled on if they can't suppress the rights of others.

[KCKID]

The point of this thread is that anyone that is honest about Christian history in and outside of the New Testament . . . should at least acknowledge that rejecting unrepentant people that engage in homosexuality, and Christians that reject the spread and celebration of gay sex in a Christian context . . . are not guilty of bigotry or hate, or any other kind of hate crime . . . but are only in keeping with the sound theology, ethics and honesty in the New Testament.

My point is that your points are already been taken on board. In the UK (at least) legislators have upheld the right of individual Christians or Christian organisations to not recognise same sex marriages. Indeed they have explicitly denied the CofE the power to do same-sex marriage.

Nor is there any thing I can find that suggests objecting to gay marriage is going to be legislated as a hate crime. Refusal to sanction a same sex marriage is explicitly excluded as a grounds for being sued.

I doubt things are any more liberal in the US or Canada.

What more do you want?

Since I have been involved very seriously in this war against the Church by LGBT forces, I doubt highly that LGBT activist organizations are going to sit by idly and allow Christians to continue to preach and teach that gay behavior is immutably sinful and antithetical to Christian truth. It looks very much like LGBT forces are gearing up for a run at silencing The Church.

I personally don't see any 'war' against the Church by 'LGBT forces'. That is just plain paranoia . What it sounds to me like ' Oh, they want to be treated like humans, so they are picking on me'.

I think there is something wrong with people insisting that THEIR rights are being trampled on if they can't suppress the rights of others.

It's what you say above that makes me shake my head in disbelief that otherwise (probably) intelligent people are creating something that for all intents and purposes DOES NOT exist other than as a fantasy of the mind.

As I mentioned in a previous post, there is SO MUCH ignorance surrounding the topic of homosexuality and, coupled with the paranoia that you (and I in the past) mention, we have a rather annoying, even dangerous, situation. 99percent and others appear to assume that homosexuality (one's INVOLUNTARY sexual attraction to another of the same gender) is inherently evil with absolutely no solid basis for this. Therefore, in the accuser's deluded mind, homosexuals, by VIRTUE of their homosexuality, are blatant sinners (baddies) that need to be crushed by 'the goodies' ...99percentatheism, et al.

Furthermore, 'the goodies' cherry pick verses from the Bible (ambiguous at best to most of us) to condemn homosexuality (the 'baddies') that were written by people who would have been just as or more ignorant on not only this subject but on MANY subjects as are 99percent and company. The false security the aforementioned find in the scriptures for themselves and the air of self-righteousness that results from this can only be realized as long as they can find and target 'baddies'. 'Homosexuality and gay marriage is necessary to feed their obsession for combating 'evil' and 'sin'. Moreover, they also play it safe. Homosexuals are still a minority. The act of 'scriptural adultery' is rife within the Church. There are too many cases to deal with. So, homosexuality/gay marriage is an easy target for them. These people can add 'coward-ism' to their bigoted and paranoiac resumes.

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

The point of this thread is that anyone that is honest about Christian history in and outside of the New Testament . . . should at least acknowledge that rejecting unrepentant people that engage in homosexuality, and Christians that reject the spread and celebration of gay sex in a Christian context . . . are not guilty of bigotry or hate, or any other kind of hate crime . . . but are only in keeping with the sound theology, ethics and honesty in the New Testament.

My point is that your points are already been taken on board. In the UK (at least) legislators have upheld the right of individual Christians or Christian organisations to not recognise same sex marriages. Indeed they have explicitly denied the CofE the power to do same-sex marriage.

Nor is there any thing I can find that suggests objecting to gay marriage is going to be legislated as a hate crime. Refusal to sanction a same sex marriage is explicitly excluded as a grounds for being sued.

I doubt things are any more liberal in the US or Canada.

What more do you want?

Since I have been involved very seriously in this war against the Church by LGBT forces, I doubt highly that LGBT activist organizations are going to sit by idly and allow Christians to continue to preach and teach that gay behavior is immutably sinful and antithetical to Christian truth. It looks very much like LGBT forces are gearing up for a run at silencing The Church.

I personally don't see any 'war' against the Church by 'LGBT forces'. That is just plain paranoia . What it sounds to me like ' Oh, they want to be treated like humans, so they are picking on me'.

I think there is something wrong with people insisting that THEIR rights are being trampled on if they can't suppress the rights of others.

It's what you say above that makes me shake my head in disbelief that otherwise (probably) intelligent people are creating something that for all intents and purposes DOES NOT exist other than as a fantasy of the mind.

Who are addressing KID?

The opposition to gay culture being plied in the Church is based squarely on reason. Gay culture and "queer theory" exist in an other-worldy perspective and is incompatible with Christian truth. You seem to think the Church and sound Christian theology be washed away for homosexuals and the gay movementto take prominence over the Church. That is a declared war on Christians and Christian orthodoxy from the outsiders that Jude and Peter warn againt.

You seem to simply ignore every mention of tolerance for LGBT's and their decidely secular power structure and liberal and progressive (universalist) supporters. Why can't you practice what you demand? Christians that oppose the gay agenda, activist homosexuality and militant homosexuals are "the goodies" you mock. And your mocking is of course prophetic and expected.

As I mentioned in a previous post, there is SO MUCH ignorance surrounding the topic of homosexuality and, coupled with the paranoia that you (and I in the past) mention, we have a rather annoying, even dangerous, situation.

Annoying? hardly. dangerous for the Church, absolutely. Your hostility and INTOLERANCE for honest Christians shows that. This "war on the Church" is proven valid with every tap of your keyboard. Your position is "take no prisoners" and nothing else. You demand that every person on earth become homosexualized to the extent that there is no oposition to the gay agenda.

99percent and others appear to assume that homosexuality (one's INVOLUNTARY sexual attraction to another of the same gender) is inherently evil with absolutely no solid basis for this.

The predatory nature of sexual deviants is well documented throughout histroy. And sadly finds its feet IN the Church often.

Therefore, in the accuser's deluded mind, homosexuals, by VIRTUE of their homosexuality, are blatant sinners (baddies) that need to be crushed by 'the goodies' ...99percentatheism, et al.

THAT is a statement of delusion. It is behavior and false theology that Christians contend against. Not the thoughts of lasciviousness. But then again, it is Jesus that defines the act of thinking as motive and complicity. LGBT's have no support groups IN the New Testament. Unless of course the behavior is repentance as the choice.

Your theory dooms a person to embracing whatever depravity their minds can conjure up. And I would say that secularism shows that "anything goes" is certainly what your theology and politics demands.

Furthermore, 'the goodies' cherry pick verses from the Bible (ambiguous at best to most of us)

Jesus defines many deaf and blind as people with healthy ears and eyes. The secular world and its ways certainly shows this pronouncement quite impressive.

. . . to condemn homosexuality (the 'baddies') that were written by people who would have been just as or more ignorant on not only this subject but on MANY subjects as are 99percent and company.

Any study of Nero and Roman morality in general that Christians cane out of shows that what we are dealing with in our defending the attacks of LGBT's and their supporters like you has not changed at all. In fact, it is strikingly similar to what the martyrs faced. We must submit to your "gods" so tp speak or suffer financial and spiritual hardships. One only needs to see what fine Christian organizations like the Southern Poverty "Law" Center has labeled as hate groups to see what harm is pointed at the Church.

The false security the aforementioned find in the scriptures for themselves and the air of self-righteousness that results from this can only be realized as long as they can find and target 'baddies'. 'Homosexuality and gay marriage is necessary to feed their obsession for combating 'evil' and 'sin'.

Your delusion is growing from the propaganda of factoid. (1: an invented fact believed to be true because it appears in print)

In real reality The "gay agenda" warned about by Christians for decades, is simply being implemented. California and Massachusetts education system shows this reality. But history is replete with examples of sexual deviance always is the default mode of the world and its ways . . ."

Once again, conservatives dare speak the truth:

Americans who self-identify as "gay" or lesbian comprise roughly one to three percent of the population. Yet the homosexual movement — led by extremist homosexual pressure groups like the so-called Human Rights Campaign (HRC) — represent, per capita, one of America's most powerful and well-funded political lobbies. Consider that HRC and the HRC foundation alone have an annual budget in excess of 50 million.

Through a carefully crafted, decades-old propaganda campaign, homosexual activists have successfully cast homosexuals — many of whom enjoy positions of influence and affluence — as a disadvantaged minority. They have repackaged and sold to the public behaviors which thousands of years of history, every major world religion and uncompromising human biology have long identified as immoral and sexually deviant.

The Goal

As with every major political movement, the homosexual lobby is pushing a specific agenda. It is often called the "gay agenda." At its core is a concerted effort to remove from society all traditional notions of sexual morality and replace them with the post-modern concept of sexual relativism. That is to say, when it comes to sex, there is never right or wrong. All sexual appetites are "equal." If it feels good, do it.

Ultimately, the homosexual lobby's primary objective is to radically redefine our foundational institutions of legitimate marriage and the nuclear family by unraveling God's natural design for human sexuality. In so doing, they hope to elevate their own spiritual and biological counterfeit and establish a sexually androgynous society wherein natural distinctions between male and female are dissolved.

This creates cultural and moral anarchy.

Plan of Attack

Ironically, sexual relativists are anything but relative. They are quite affirmative in principle. But the principles they foist demand comprehensive acceptance of homosexual conduct — by force of law — through federal edicts such as "hate crimes" legislation, the so-called "Employment Non-Discrimination Act" (ENDA) and by imposing government sanctioned "same-sex marriage." All such government mandates grant special protected "minority" status to those who define themselves by aberrant sexual preferences and changeable sexual behaviors. These laws put people with traditional values directly in the crosshairs of official government policy.

Throughout society, homosexual activists demand that homosexual behaviors not only be "tolerated," but celebrated. (That's what the euphemistic slogan "celebrate diversity" supposes). They have masked their true political agenda by hijacking the language of the genuine civil rights movement and through the crafty and disingenuous rhetoric of "tolerance" and "diversity."

Anyone who believes the Biblical directive that human sexuality is a gift from God, to be shared between man and wife within the bonds of marriage, is branded "homophobic," "hateful" or "discriminatory." They are to be silenced by all means possible.

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/mbarber/080213

February 13, 2008

Unmasking the "gay" agenda

By J. Matt Barber

Moreover, they also play it safe. Homosexuals are still a minority.

One very, very, very powerful minority. Notice the propaganda. As was highlighted by the article referenced from 2008 above.

And what ever happened to democracy I wonder?

The act of 'scriptural adultery' is rife within the Church. There are too many cases to deal with.

If two wrongs do not make a right, then "too many cases to deal with," but not to the gay agenda right?

So, homosexuality/gay marriage is an easy target for them. These people can add 'coward-ism' to their bigoted and paranoiac resumes.

Propaganda to warp the populace into believing absurdity and depravity is actually patriotism and preaching and living a moral life is hate speech. German propaganda raises its ugly head now pointed at The Church. How did Christians know that this would happen I wonder? (No, not really, I don't wonder and do know.)

Christian martyrs throughout the Roman empire that rejected living a lascivious life met a similar charge I'm sure. They were made to worship the gods of Rome or face sanctions and loss. Hmm, how familiar that sounds?

Interesting to see the Gospel as hate speech and now, once again, sexual wantoness as a social justice issue that all must approve of. When will orgies be mandatory via legislation I wonder? Of course when all STD's find a medical prevention I'll bet.

KID, you couldn't prove the veracity of Biblical prophecy any more firmly than if you really believed it yourself. Though your vitriol towards me is to be expected your views are kind of Balaam like, in that you mean cursing, but God's truth will win out. I'm not really all that worried what happens to you people. You show beyond doubt that you choose your path willingly. I am though, commited to the Church, as you well know, just as Jude (and Jesus) advised. You on the other hand, demand a different Gospel I cannot agree with. But notice how I allow you your right to pursue your physical (and spiritual) life as you so choose.

[99percentatheism]

Are you talking in purely theological terms? If you want to prevent Christian churches - or even individual Christians - from thinking homosexuality is not a 'sin' that is one thing. But you may be requiring that it goes further than that and that homosexuality should also be disallowed in secular society.

What theology says about homosexuality is as relevant to reality as is what it says about the number of angels that can dance on the point of a needle. As I said for Christians the theology of homosexuality is a matter for their individual conscience.

But when you are talking about applying a religious principle in the secular sphere then you are flirting with theocracy and the separation of church and state.

Two things please?

1) Please show where "seperation of Church and State" finds any law in the Constitution.

2) Please place the word YES as your response to the OP.

[keithprosser3]

1 - I would suppose the the first amendment in the case of the US. The UK doesn't have a written constistution.

2 - I have repeatedly said I believe your argument is theologically sound.

Whether it is morally, legally or constitutionally sound is another matter entirely.

[KCKID]

"'Right theology' (being 'theologically sound') has become a false idol. When it's used as a pacifier to make one feel right rather than redeemed, it breeds arrogance and is bait for an offensive controlling personality. 'Right theology' has no redemptive power at all, that redemptive power only comes through a relationship with Jesus."

Donald Miller
Author of Searching for God Knows What

[Danmark]

Two things please?

1) Please show where "seperation [sic] of Church and State" finds any law in the Constitution.

Sorry 99, but this is so poorly written I'm not certain of your meaning. Are you saying "separation of church and state" is not a Constitutional principle?
If so this tired old canard needs to be retired. The U.S. Constitution clearly prohibits "the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion."
Even ignoring Jefferson's letter where he interprets this as placing 'a wall of separation' between church and State, the simple words of the Constitution prohibit any law that establishes a State religion. This creates a wall of separation whether those exact words are in the Constitution or not.

We the people are protected against the efforts of either the State or Federal government promoting ('establishing') a State religion. Get used to it. We do not have to put up with some church's definition of marriage or their insistence on cramming their relics and icons down our throats by putting them in public buildings.

If you really want a government where this is allowed you'll have to move to Vatican City or an Islamic extremist State.