[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

[cnorman18]

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

I’d rather work for hope and fail, than work for despair and succeed.

[EduChris]

...I’d rather work for hope and fail, than work for despair and succeed...

I agree that "working for hope" is the better option, but I also see Woland's point. In order to work for hope, we first have to find Muslims who don't resort to the level of argument where, because sex with lobsters isn't criminalized, therefore you can take a lobster as your legal spouse; or where pigs excreted from an elephant are claimed to have eaten up all the poop from the animals on Noah's ark (Prophets in the Qur'an, p. 55 [Ibn Abbas]).

Such Muslims are exeedingly rare, though I did encounter one many years ago, and cnorman says he also met one on this forum a few years ago.

[cnorman18]

...I’d rather work for hope and fail, than work for despair and succeed...

I agree that "working for hope" is the better option, but I also see Woland's point. In order to work for hope, we first have to find Muslims who don't resort to the level of argument where, because sex with lobsters isn't criminalized, therefore you can take a lobster as your legal spouse; or where pigs excreted from an elephant are claimed to have eaten up all the poop from the animals on Noah's ark (Prophets in the Qur'an, p. 55 [Ibn Abbas]).

Such Muslims are exeedingly rare, though I did encounter one many years ago, and cnorman says he also met one on this forum a few years ago.

Oh, please. Are you comfortable with the common Muslim canard that Terry Jones represents the majority of Christians? How about Fred Phelps, Jim Bakker, and Pope Innocent III? The Crusaders and the Inquisition? What you are doing here is PRECISELY analogous.

Moderate Muslims aren't "exeedingly [sic] rare" nor hard to find. I have posted remarks from several on this very thread, and there are millions more worldwide; further, I have had conversations with many more than "one," on this forum and elsewhere, including speakers at synagogues here in Dallas, Texas, whose presentations I have personally attended.

Claiming that this dialogue is difficult or impossible because there's no one on the other side is simply, and egregiously, false. If you're having a hard time finding Muslims to talk to, the reason is simple enough, and proven by your own remarks right here; you don't think there are any, and therefore you're not looking.

[EduChris]

...Are you comfortable with the common Muslim canard that Terry Jones represents the majority of Christians?...What you are doing here is PRECISELY analogous...

My main point (perhaps not expressed clearly enough) was that if Muslims want to make these sorts of absurd arguments (as Murad has done right here on this thread) then the possibility for open, sincere, productive dialog is lost.

[cnorman18]

...Are you comfortable with the common Muslim canard that Terry Jones represents the majority of Christians?...What you are doing here is PRECISELY analogous...

My main point (perhaps not expressed clearly enough) was that if Muslims want to make these sorts of absurd arguments (as Murad has done right here on this thread) then the possibility for open, sincere, productive dialog is lost.

I would agree that the possibility of open, sincere, productive dialogue with those Muslims is lost; but certainly not with ALL Muslims, as you are apparently saying. I don't hold out a lot of hope for moderate Muslims, or anybody for that matter, having an open, sincere and productive dialogue with Fred Phelps, either; and of course it's a bit silly to protest the difficulty of "dialogue" with either Christians or Muslims who have been dead for centuries.

It's hard to believe that anyone who continually brings up nothing other than the extremism, violence and ludicrous doctrines advocated by SOME on the other side, and who consistently ignores and discounts the many moderate, sane, reasonable, and peaceful people among them, is really, sincerely, interested in open and productive dialogue at all.

[EduChris]

...It's hard to believe that anyone who continually brings up nothing other than the extremism, violence and ludicrous doctrines advocated by SOME on the other side, and who consistently ignores and discounts the many moderate, sane, reasonable, and peaceful people among them, is really, sincerely, interested in open and productive dialogue at all.

I agree that holding out hope is the best option. Tell you what: let's agree to give each other a "heads-up" whenever either of us finds a Muslim here on this forum who is willing and capable of sincere, open, and productive dialog. If and when that happens, let's see where such dialog can take us.

[cnorman18]

...It's hard to believe that anyone who continually brings up nothing other than the extremism, violence and ludicrous doctrines advocated by SOME on the other side, and who consistently ignores and discounts the many moderate, sane, reasonable, and peaceful people among them, is really, sincerely, interested in open and productive dialogue at all.

I agree that holding out hope is the best option. Tell you what: let's agree to give each other a "heads-up" whenever either of us finds a Muslim here on this forum who is willing and capable of sincere, open, and productive dialog. If and when that happens, let's see where such dialog can take us.

I've been doing that for three years; I don't need your help, thanks. See if you can manage to do it on your own, too -- and look other places besides this forum.

I wouldn't dispute that there aren't a lot of moderate Muslims on this particular forum; Internet forums attract those who are interested in preaching and proselytization, extremists, and those who come here to denigrate and despise. It's been observed in the past that there have been a LOT more judgmental, hostile, and arrogant fundamentalist/literalist Christians here than the other kind, too. Most of them have either left or been banned, which is OK with me. The same goes for judgmental and arrogant atheists, for the matter of that. The extremist Muslims who spam the forum and preach seventh-century nonsense don't last long here either, as you may have observed.

If you want the forum to attract moderate Muslims ready to dialogue, it might be advisable to show that YOU are willing to dialogue, as opposed to continually complaining about how hard it is. If I were a Muslim, I don't know that I'd want to step into this snakepit either.

[EduChris]

...If you want the forum to attract moderate Muslims ready to dialogue, it might be advisable to show that YOU are willing to dialogue...

Which is exactly what I have tried to do (see my thread, Toward a Better Christian-Muslim Understanding).

It would be interesting for me to know what a sincere, open, and productive dialog with a Muslim would look like. For me, at least initially, it seems that one should try to get a handle on the actual teachings and principles of the respective faiths, while avoiding arguments about whose sacred text is more "authentic" or "pristine" (since no agreement is likely to be possible on these matters) while similarly avoiding derogatory comments about Paul and Mohammad.

What other suggestions might you have in this regard?

[cnorman18]

...If you want the forum to attract moderate Muslims ready to dialogue, it might be advisable to show that YOU are willing to dialogue...

Which is exactly what I have tried to do (see my thread, Toward a Better Christian-Muslim Understanding).

It would be interesting for me to know what a sincere, open, and productive dialog with a Muslim would look like. For me, at least initially, it seems that one should try to get a handle on the actual teachings and principles of the respective faiths, while avoiding arguments about whose sacred text is more "authentic" or "pristine" (since no agreement is likely to be possible on these matters) while similarly avoiding derogatory comments about Paul and Mohammad.

What other suggestions might you have in this regard?

It's not hard. Take a look at the "Religion" section of your local paper, commonly published on Saturday. If you live in or near a town of any size, there's probably a mosque or Islamic study center around; they often hold "open houses" or similar events, and though they are rightly concerned with security these days, they are generally open and welcoming to those who wish to learn more about their religion, even those with no intention of converting. There are also, and frequently, interfaith conferences or discussions open to the public, where clergy and laypeople of various faiths can interact and have dialogue. Those can take place anywhere - churches, synagogues (mine sponsors such events frequently), even schools.