faroukfarouk wrote:
Peaceful greetings to all
Tks to Charles and Goat on your replys.Very interesting indeed.
Goat tks for joining the conversation and debate.Your input is most welcome as it will add value to the subject.
Charles
Firstly.
On the Post 25: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:02 am Your statement reads as ff.
“From all you have posted here (with which I have no argument)�
On the Post 28: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:57 pm Your statement reads as ff.
Quote:
It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do.
You edited out the rest of that quote. It actually reads, “From all you have posted here (with which I have no argument), ), it seems very clear indeed that
Jews are not a race. Thanks.�
“That is not entirely accurate, as we will see in a moment�.
On the Fri Sep21 you accepted the definition of a Jew and on Sat Sep22 you backtrack on your word by arguing on what you have already accepted.
Not true. There’s no point in my reposting things that are already on the record; anyone can scroll up and see exactly what I said. I agreed with the material you posted, which was entirely factual; I did NOT agree with the conclusions YOU apparently drew from it, including your supposed “definition of a Jew,� which entailed ignoring much of that very material which contradicts it directly.
Do not try to put words in my mouth or make claims about what I do or do not believe or what I do and do not agree with. I can speak for myself, and I speak very clearly.
It seems you not sure of yourself.Maybe its your suspicion that’s affecting your mind or you have an agenda of evading the truth.Please keep an open mind in answering questions so as not to backtrack and become argumental on what is already accepted as the truth.
Please do not claim to be able to read my mind. Please do not attribute any agenda of ‘evading the truth’ to me, because that constitutes a personal attack and an insult. Please do not speak for me on what is “already accepted as the truth.�
Sorry, but twisting what I say into shapes that are convenient to your argument does not constitute actual, rational, and ethical debate; neither does voicing your OWN suspicions.
Second
Your Quote
“ All these questions have long since been settled among Jews -- and all these are matters which are and may be determined by Jews alone, just as who is or is not a Catholic may only be determined by Catholics, and who is or is not a Muslim may only be determined by Muslims. No one has either the warrant or the authority to make pronouncements about the proper beliefs or practices of a religion that is not his own�.
You are 100% correct but what are you implying?Should i not ask questions about your beliefs?
Did I say that? You are putting words in my mouth again.
Sounds more like you want to evade the question of weather Jews are a Race?Or maybe it’s the sensitivity of the question Are Jews a Race?
Mindreading again. Let me warn YOU: I have very little patience for that sort of thing. I’m not evading any question at all here; as far as I’m concerned, the question of whether “Jews are a Race� is already decided from the material that you yourself have posted. One cannot “convert� and change one’s “race�; therefore Jews cannot be a “race.� Period, full stop.
Much of the rest of your confusion comes from the fact that the term “Jew� can be used in several different ways. Surely you know this. One may be a cultural Jew, or a Jew by heritage or ancestry, but not practice the Jewish religion; or, one may practice the Jewish religion as a convert to Judaism and be a Jew in that way. To be “Jewish� can mean “one who practices Judaism� or it may mean “one who self-identifies as a member of the Jewish community.� It most often means
both. You are trying to limit the use of the word to one of those definitions only and eliminate the other. That just isn’t accurate, and it isn’t objectively true.
I did warn you it’sa a painful road ahead and we have only scratched the surface of the subject.Expect much more pain because the road ahead will get extremely bumpy.
I don’t think it’s going to be “bumpy� or “painful� for ME, because I don’t agree with your reasoning or your interpretation of the material you keep posting, which seems to contradict your “conclusions� anyway. It might get bumpy for YOU...
I note that you’re already characterizing this as an argument with an opponent intent on deception and evasion. That says quite a lot about your attitudes and agenda, and nothing whatever about mine.
Third
Your Quote
“Good example. As soon as you make a statement about "all Jews" you are betraying a certain tendency toward prejudice and stereotype�.
You are correct my apiologies.I retrack those words from “all Jews� to read�most Jews�.
Sorry, but that’s no better. “Most blacks are criminals� is no better than “all blacks are criminals.� A stereotype is a stereotype, and you don’t get to claim it’s legitimate by diluting it only slightly. “A few Jews� I might accept, but one could say quite anything about “a few Jews� and it’s therefore of doubtful importance. Let’s just say that ringing in generalizations to ANY degree here -- that is, any assertion with the assumption that “Jews are different� in their character, or indeed in any way other than in their religion and/or culture -- is not helping your credibility.
Faith
Your Quote
“Agreed. But why do you assume that you get to define "the truth" and Jewish law and tradition do not?�
For the record my name is Farouk.The meaning of my name is “discerning truth from falsehood�.Now if you not happy with that then you just got to get use to living with it.
Your name gives you no authority whatever, of course. One wonders why you think it would matter.
Perhaps you should get used to your claims and pronouncements being ignored as being of no importance. To give an obvious analogy, why would a Muslim accept the opinion of a non-Muslim about the nature of Islam and what “Muslim� means as definitive and correct over the teachings and traditions of his own religion? If I were to begin making pronouncements about Islam and the character and teachings of Muslims, would you bow down to me and accept them?
Fifth
Quote
“It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do�.
You ought to to read this in its proper contex.Simply means those that are born from a Jewish mother and leave the religion of Judaism are still regarded as Jews.Hence you get atheist Jews,Christian Jews,Islamic Jews etc.
And of course
that much is true; but once again, you are ignoring the case of the convert, in which the religion is the whole point. That is not trivial; a very high proportion of Jews are converts and that has always been true. Therefore, it is simply and objectively wrong to say that “being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do.�
Ignoring points as if they had never been made isn’t debating, either. Let’s not pretend that it is.
Sixth
“"Jew" is a noun which refers to a person. "Judaism" is a noun which refers to a religion. But it's way beyond obvious that very many Jews practice Judaism. Pretending that the "persons called Jews" and "the religion called Judaism" are mutually exclusive or unrelated terms is ludicrous -- and quite obviously is intended to support some agenda or other�.
The word Jew refers to a person hence a noun.100% correct.
The word Judaism is a noun derived from the word Juda(name of a place also noun).Hence the word Juda-ism (Judaism).Its an ism. Name given to a belief( religion).
The word Jewish is an adjective and is derived from the word Jew.In grammar an adjective is a describing word and the main syntactic role of which is to qualify a noun or noun phrase hence giving more information about the object.
Rather confidently spoken from one who admits that he is unfamiliar with the English language.
Here are three (3) definitions of the word “Jew� from respected dictionaries. Notice that all three make reference to RELIGION.
From
Dictionary.com:
Jew   [joo]
noun
1. one of a scattered group of people that traces its descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from postexilic adherents of Judaism; Israelite.
2. a person whose religion is Judaism.
a subject of the ancient kingdom of Judah.
From
Merriam-Webster:
Jew noun \ˈjü\
Definition of JEW
1a : a member of the tribe of Judah
1b : israelite
2: a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century b.c. to the first century a.d.
3: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
4: one whose religion is Judaism
From
The Free Dictionary:
Jew  (j)
n.
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.
I don’t think it could be much clearer.
Note its childish to play around with words to suit your agenda of evading the subject matter of weather Jews are a Race?
Oh, I quite agree; but it’s been rather clear here for some time that YOU are doing precisely that, and no one else.
Jew or Jewish can never be a religion.Don’t even think about it.
Objectively false, and I have proven it so in several different ways now.
And I’ll think about whatever I like, thanks.
So if anyone says Jewish religion it is totally incorrect because there are atheist Jews,there are Islamic Jews,there are Christian Jews,etc.The bottom line is once you become a Jew you will remain a Jew for life irrespective of your religious beliefs thereafter.Although the majority of Jews belong to the religion of Judaism that does not make the word Jewish a religion.
Again; the word “Jew� may be used in at least two different ways. One of them is “follower of the Jewish religion, which is called Judaism.� One may be a Jew by ancestry and practice another religion; or, one may be a Jew by practicing the Jewish religion and by conversion, and not be Jewish by ancestry. Those are just the facts, and they are quite clear. That the concept is not the same as in other religions is irrelevant. Judaism is unique in many ways, and that is one of them.
Seven
Taken note that the subject,are Jews a Race, does not cause you any pain.
Certainly not, because we aren’t a “race.� Never were. Never will be.
You can’t change your “race.� Another point you keep ignoring.
Note you cannot speak for others that read my postings so stop harping on my asking others for forgiveness.Once again its my religious upbringing right to ask those for forgiveness whom it causes pain because religion is a very sensitive subject.
Okay. My only problem is that you keep ASSUMING that others are going to “feel pain,� and there is no evidence whatever of that. People rarely feel “pain� at reading wrongheaded or erroneous ideas. Amusement, perhaps.
Back to the main subject.
More questions.
1.Are same sex marriage allowed in Judaism?
Depends on the branch of the Jewish religion that we’re talking about. Orthodox, no; Reform, yes, in some congregations; Conservative, same.
You might bear in mind that there is no central authority in the Jewish religion. There is no Jewish Pope, no Council of Elders, nothing. Hasn’t been any such authority since the fourth century CE. Every congregation is independent; even the “branches� are matters of voluntary association, and their boards and committees serve only in an advisory capacity.
2.Can two homosexuals become Jews?
Yes. So can one homosexual, or three. Two Lutherans can become Jews, or they can become a Catholic and a Jew, or a Methodist and a Buddhist. Odd question.
3.What does the Torah say regarding interfaith marriage?
Depends on which passage one reads. In some places it’s forbidden; in others, it’s encouraged, e.g. in the book of Ruth. Ruth was a Gentile -- in fact, a Moabite, ancestral enemies of the Jews -- and was a convert as a result of intermarriage, and she was one of the ancestors of the paradigmatic Jewish King, David.
For the ignorant please explain Torah.
The ignorant can look it up for themselves, or you can give your own interpretation. You aren’t my professor, and I don’t feel any obligation to jump through your hoops.
4.What does the Talmud say regarding interfaith marriage?
The same situation applies. It depends on where you read. In its 50+ volumes in English, one can find many, many opinions; not surprising, since it is essentially a record of a few centuries of debate and argument.
For the ignorant please explain Talmud..
I’ll decline again. I’m not your graduate assistant.
I’d be very interested to see YOUR explanation of the Talmud.
5.What does the Deuteronomic law say regarding interfaith marriage?
Depends where you read, again. If your point is that there is no one definitive doctrine, you would be correct.
For the ignorant please explain Deuteronomic law .
No.
6.Can Palestinian become Jews?
Yes. They may not continue practicing Islam, just as Christians may not continue practicing the Christian religion; but they sure can convert, and many have.
7.Historically was converts to Judaism allowed?
Yes, throughout Jewish history. During the Roman period, the number of Jews in the world doubled in a very short time; most of this growth was due to conversions.
.8.Historically was intermarriage to Judaism allowed?
Again, it depended on the period and the community. Many of Solomon’s wives were Gentiles. Conversion was often considered a prerequisite, but not always.
9.What are the Torah and Talmud views regarding converts into Judaism?
(Sigh) Yet again, it depends on what passage you read. The Torah is generally encouraging of conversion, and is unequivocal about non-Jews being treated with fairness and compassion; “Do not oppress the stranger, for you were strangers in Egypt� is repeated many times. In the Talmud, though there are a few places where converts are disparaged, for the most part they are praised and encouraged. In fact, in Midrash Tanhuma B Lech Lecha 6, it is said that “Converts are dearer to God than the Jews who stood at Mt. Sinai. Why? Because had those Jews not beheld the thunder and lightning, the mountains quaking and the sounds of the horn, they would not have accepted the Torah. But the convert, who saw none of these things, came and voluntarily embraced the Torah and the Jewish people. Could anyone be more beloved to God?�
10.Who was the first Man and Women to be called a Jew?
By tradition, that would be Abraham and Sarah, even though it is an anachronism (since they lived before the kingdom of Judah, or even the son of Jacob by that name, existed).
11.Can converts into Judaism marry priests?
If answer is no please explain fully why not.
I’d LOVE to see what sources you’re looking at.
First, there are no longer any “priests� in Judaism and have not been since the fall of the Second Temple in 70 CE. There are “Cohens� or
Kohanim, who are traditionally said to be descended from Aaron and are therefore of the priestly tribe; but they no longer hold any authority in the Jewish religion, and in fact take no role at all other than in a few old traditions, such as giving a certain blessing on some holidays.
Converts may certainly marry Cohens; it happens all the time. In the tradition, that Cohen would lose his status as a Cohen, but since that hardly matters anyway, it’s not much of a concern. It may be among the Orthodox.
12.Can the children of converts marry priests?
If answer is no please explain fully why not.
Again, certainly. The child of a convert is considered fully Jewish in every case.
A convert may not become High Priest. That is about the only restriction on converts in the Jewish religion; but since there hasn't been a High Priest, or a Temple in which he could officiate, for two thousand years, that is of doubtful importance.
More questions will follow after the above have been answered.
I’d like to hear some of YOUR answers first. The only one you’ve given so far -- that Jews constitute a “race� -- has been shown to be objectively and verifiably wrong. How about it? Let’s see what your “truth� is on these questions --
and from what sources you’ve gotten it.
Finally lets compile what we have already discussed.
1.A Jew is a person.An individual identity.Not a religion.
Wrong, as has been proven.
2.In order to become a Jew,one has to accept the Judaism religion fully.
Doesn't that directly contradict your claim that "being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do"?
In any case, "accepting the Jewish religion" does not mean, as in the case of most if not all other religions, accepting a set of doctrines or dogmas; in the case of Judaism, it is about commitment to a
community, not a belief. One may convert even in branches, like Reconstructionist or Humanistic Judaism, where belief in God is optional or nonexistent.
3.Once a Jew ,you remain a Jew for life.
That is correct, as far as Jewish law is concerned; but one may cease practicing the Jewish religion. 
 One more time: There is more than one meaning for the word "Jew." "One of the Jewish race" is not one of them.
4.Jews that reverts to another religion are still regarded as Jews.
In a cultural or ancestral sense, but not in the sense of practicing the Jewish religion.
5.Juda-ism(Judaism) is the name of a religion.
Correct; the one practiced by Jews.
Sorry if you’re having a hard time with this concept; you’re not the first, and you won’t be the last. That’s of little concern to Jews. We get to answer these questions for ourselves, and the opinions of others are of no importance (just as the opinions of non-Muslims about the nature of Islam are of no importance to Muslims).
Once again my apologies if the subject causes any one pain.
And once again, I have no idea why it would. You might want to look up the word "condescending" sometime.
God bless you all and have a wonderful day.
And the same to you.
