Does Christ speak and how?

[tam]

May you have peace!

A question that continues to be posed to me is with regard to my bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. How does He speak? What does that mean? How can we test that?

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...


Christ said that His sheep would hear His voice.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.…" John 10:14-16



Written testimony about/from others who heard His voice, confirming the truth of what He said:

The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Acts 8:29

**
In Damascus, there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Yes Lord," he answered.

The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight." (Acts 9:10,11... and it continues)

**
There is Peter's vision telling him that he should eat foods that he considered unclean, and then after his vision:

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit (Christ) said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." (Acts 10: 9-20)

**
There are of course multiple examples from Paul. The entire book of Revelation is from Christ to John. There is a warning against hardening our hearts if we hear His voice.

As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Hebrews 3:15

Then of course there are the examples of Abraham, who heard, Noah, who heard, the prophets, who heard, Joseph, who heard, Daniel, who heard, etc, etc. Their faith is based upon the evidence of what they heard.



My own personal testimony


I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His. But someone else bore witness to a living speaking Christ, and it bothered me, lol. I had just ended a two year bible study with a certain denomination, and I did not want to get misled by man ever gain. But here was this person claiming that Christ spoke. If I believed this person, that they were from God, then what was wrong with me that I allowed myself to get misled yet again. On the other hand, what was wrong with me if this person did hear Christ, and I rejected them?

But soon into my dilemma (and my asking how I might know, even though I thought I was just asking myself) I heard:

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.


I still did not know this was Christ speaking to me. I just thought, "Oh, of course... that is what I will do."

So that is what I did. Along the way, I saw all these verses and examples and testimony that Christ does indeed speak, that God spoke also, though now speaks through Christ. In dreams, in visions, in direct words, in reminders, in opening eyes and ears to a truth that one might read, see, or hear. Once I realized that Christ is supposed to speak, I asked for ears to hear as well. Even though I did hear Him; I just did not know I heard Him. I needed to learn His voice and recognize Him.

**

I was asked how does He speak

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.



(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true. Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)


**

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.



If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with (in) them."


(Please note that He says that they will obey HIS teaching. Not man's teaching. Not religion or religious leaders, not Paul, not the law, or anyone or anything else over Him. If we love HIM... we will obey HIM. If we love someone or something else more, then we will listen to and obey that one/thing. Including if we love our religion more than Him, although we might not realize it at the time. Including if we think the bible is the Word of God, especially when even that book states that Christ is the Word of God; and Christ himself said, "You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.")



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, to get a sense of these things, and to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the bride SAY to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life."


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Clownboat]

I was born again, spirit filled, drunk in the Holy Ghost, missionary and street evangelizing Christian.
Semantics cannot change this fact.

I too find this a little disturbing and must believe you have something wrong...
Would You characterize yourself as one of the people of the parable of the seeds: Matt 13:20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. who fell away due to troubles or worries or wealth?

There is much debate of course about whether these seeds were indeed spirit filled. While I do not share a common filling with the Pentecostal manner I'm curious - are you also willing to share what this filling felt like and how it was expressed as different from being an ordinary believer?

I'm also aware, as should you that most people have religious beliefs based off of geography. Do you honestly think you would be a Christian if you were born and lived in Iran? ... the actual geography argument that what religion you belong to generally stems from your geographic location on this planet.

The idea that GOD puts HIS elect people into Jewish (OT) and Western (NT) cultures geographically would also be an answer to the geographical problem against the suggestion that people only believe a certain way because of the culture they are born into. IF in fact we chose our 'religion' before earthly life, I see no problem with HIM putting all those with a Hindu bent together and all those with an animist bent together etc.

Of course it is harder for those who believe our creation is our conception and that the sinful elect (those who will become believers) are randomly scattered on earth...

I read the first line of your post.
Like I said to Tam, you MUST believe that I was insincere, you don't really have a choice. It is not comfortable being confronted by people that have been set free of the beliefs you still hold (pre-existence not included obviously).

You have motive for me to be insincere. You are emotional about your beliefs, I don't have beliefs to be emotional about. In other words, I don't have a dog in this fight, so why would my claims of being a sincere Christian ever be doubted, besides by uncomfortable Christians of course? They have no choice after all.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 41 by Clownboat]

In other words, I don't have a dog in this fight, so why would my claims of being a sincere Christian ever be doubted, besides by uncomfortable Christians of course? They have no choice after all.

As a former Catholic Christian, current skeptic unbeliever, I just want to say that when you say you were a Christian who had a strong belief in the teachings, I believe you.
If it turns out you actually weren't such, then I will shrug my shoulders, say "my mistake" and move on.

[ttruscott]

I was born again, spirit filled, drunk in the Holy Ghost, missionary and street evangelizing Christian.
Semantics cannot change this fact.

I too find this a little disturbing and must believe you have something wrong...

I read the first line of your post.
Like I said to Tam, you MUST believe that I was insincere, you don't really have a choice.

So glad to see you agree with me - agreement is the first step of understanding, no? But thinking something must be wrong IS NOT THE SAME AS scepticism...my questions were and attempt to find the wrongness but I never entertained the idea you were lying about your experience but it does impact my own if yours was 'true'.

So why not answer my questions then rather than writing me off as a hysteric or at least only emotionally motivated??

[Clownboat]

I was born again, spirit filled, drunk in the Holy Ghost, missionary and street evangelizing Christian.
Semantics cannot change this fact.

I too find this a little disturbing and must believe you have something wrong...

I read the first line of your post.
Like I said to Tam, you MUST believe that I was insincere, you don't really have a choice.

So glad to see you agree with me - agreement is the first step of understanding, no? But thinking something must be wrong IS NOT THE SAME AS scepticism...my questions were and attempt to find the wrongness but I never entertained the idea you were lying about your experience but it does impact my own if yours was 'true'.

So why not answer my questions then rather than writing me off as a hysteric or at least only emotionally motivated??

The truth is ttruscott, I normally don't read your posts...

Would You characterize yourself as one of the people of the parable of the seeds:

Most certainly not. I did not fall away due to worries, troubles or wealth.
It started when I read the Bible from cover to cover. I started asking myself questions that I never even considered when I got my teachings from the church and school.

When I studied evolution, I even changed my religious beliefs to incorporated "that is how god did it" so I could keep my beliefs. I was happy with this, but the questions just did not stop there.

are you also willing to share what this filling felt like and how it was expressed as different from being an ordinary believer?

It is very self rewarding to feel loved by a god, and to sincerely believe that he sent his son to be tortured and then killed on your behalf. That is until you stop to think about it. Then, killing in order to be forgiven for sins that are much less then murder gets a little nonsensical.

To answer your question... I don't know what it felt/feels like to be an ordinary believer. You see, I served the one true god, had a relationship with Christ and everyone else had it wrong. In other words, it felt special to truly convince yourself that something so great loves us. I felt special knowing that the Catholics for example, got it close, but we had it spot on and mansions in heaven were waiting for us. I truly would have lost my head (literally), before I would have renounced my beliefs.

The idea that GOD puts HIS elect people into Jewish (OT) and Western (NT) cultures geographically would also be an answer to the geographical problem against the suggestion that people only believe a certain way because of the culture they are born into. IF in fact we chose our 'religion' before earthly life, I see no problem with HIM putting all those with a Hindu bent together and all those with an animist bent together etc.

Of course it is harder for those who believe our creation is our conception and that the sinful elect (those who will become believers) are randomly scattered on earth...

These kind of statements is what causes me to pass by your posts.
For me, I rejected the flood as global once I understood plate tectonics. I embraced it as local.
I rejected special creation once I learned what evolution really is. I embraced it as that is how god created humans.

There was a period of time where I did all sorts of mental gymnastics in order to make my beliefs work with my new understanding. No offense, but your pre-existence just reminds me too much of that time in my life. I just don't find the idea credible in any way, so it just doesn't interest me.

Let me know if I missed anything.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 41 by Clownboat]

In other words, I don't have a dog in this fight, so why would my claims of being a sincere Christian ever be doubted, besides by uncomfortable Christians of course? They have no choice after all.

As a former Catholic Christian, current skeptic unbeliever, I just want to say that when you say you were a Christian who had a strong belief in the teachings, I believe you.
If it turns out you actually weren't such, then I will shrug my shoulders, say "my mistake" and move on.

Thank you for that.
I assure you that my words are true. Your shoulders will not need to shrug.

That makes at least 4 of us on these boards alone.
Once Convinced
McCulloch
Riku
Clownboat

I'm sure I missed some others.

It is an uncomfortable thought to consider as a believer, that sincere believers that share your faith, can lose said faith.

The defense mechanism is to assume they were not sincere or that they were doing it wrong. If you can do this, you can continue on like a good little sheep.

[ttruscott]

There was a period of time where I did all sorts of mental gymnastics in order to make my beliefs work with my new understanding. No offense, but your pre-existence just reminds me too much of that time in my life. I just don't find the idea credible in any way, so it just doesn't interest me.

Let me know if I missed anything.

Thanks for answering...

These last two paragraphs tell of your relationship to my thoughts but it does divert the attention away from my supposition that GOD putting people on earth in conclaves is just as logical a stance for a believer as your supposition our religion is formed by our culture / geography is to a materialistic pov whether their election was pre-chosen or chosen by GOD at earthly creation...in other words, pre-existence is immaterial to my suggestion which you dropped.

I was under the impression that you were saying that your geographical model was the only logical answer so I spoke up, and was not trying to sell pre-existence as the answer.

[tam]

Okay then. What you have said, which I have heard also from atheists, is something that I find quite odd.

What I find odd is this incessant need for so many religious folk to create 'us vs them'.
Christians vs Atheists.
Christians vs Muslims.
Christians vs Gays.
You have your religious beliefs and that is fine, but we are all humans sharing this planet. Can't we be on the same team?

Dear Clownboat, if you are addressing me, please tell me when I have made this about Christians versus anyone? If you are not addressing me, then what is the point of this comment in response to my own?

Anyone may come to Christ... and even of those who do not come to Christ, among them are the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) who enter into the Kingdom due to the law (of love) being upon their heart, made manifest if what they DO.

All humans are not on the same team because not all humans are interesting in treating others with love. But there are those from every walk of life (every belief or non-belief system, every sexual orientation, etc) who have love upon their hearts, and who act according to that law.

Such ones also enter into the Kingdom. Such is my faith as I have learned from my Lord.

Sure. But you were using your experience on expertise on YOU, to imply that "I" did not do 'due diligence'.

Tam, I don't know you nor do I know if you did your due diligence or not. I do however have over 2 decades of being a Christian where I witnessed no such due diligence. My friends all shared the belief that their parents had. ALL of them if I were to ask who wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, ALL would say Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. (It has now become a small hobby to ask this and these types of questions. It sheds a lot of light on how they and I for a time just believed what we were told without first doing our due diligence).
Consider evolution, do you ever hear non religious people asking how a monkey gave birth to a man? Now ask a religious person that has not done their due diligence...
The examples of people not doing their due diligence were just to great for the 2 decades that I was a believer.

For all I know Tam, you have studied evolution and other religious options, but you are not included in my 2 decade sample size. Please stop trying to insert yourself.

I am not trying to insert myself. YOU inserted ME when you said to me:

I would want to learn first. You on the other hand seem OK with just picking concepts to decide to believe in without first doing your due diligence (is the thing real?).


And if you wish to instead state now that you meant a general 'you', then would it not actually be you who is showing an 'us' versus 'them' mentality?

You now, and my previous self preferred different words, like 'relationship'. This in no way is an attempt to place you in a category.

Sure, but again, you were using your experience and knowledge to make a statement about me.

Tam, claiming not to be religious but to be in a relationship is something I use to say as well. This is something we have in common. Something I have some very personal experience with (not wanting to be part of a religion).
Have you changed magically and now want to be part of a religion or something. If not, your complaints are miss aimed I believe. This would not be a category, it would be something we had/have in common.

[/quote][/quote]

My complaint was directed to your words of 'not doing due diligence'. I had to go back and find the original exchange.

As for what we have in common, this phrase, "I have a relationship, not religion" is not one that I have used. I have stated that I have faith, not religion.

It is hard to know whether we have (had) that in common without knowing much about your past as a former believer. Were you part of any sect or denomination?

Because all of those are part of religion. One cannot say that they have a relationship, and not religion, if one is part of religion. (organized religion, for the sake of clarity between us)

It is not semantics.

But lets start with me asking you some questions.

Do you believe there is holy spirit, for a person to be filled with?

Yes I did. I can still speak in tongues mind you.
I'm now open to there being a holy spirit, but I will do my due diligence before just placing my faith in what people say about it or a Christ.

You realize that when the gift of tongues was given at Pentecost, the tongues were actual languages that other people spoke? Is that the gift that you have?

Regardless, since tongues is a gift of the Spirit, how can you claim to have that gift and only be 'open' to there being a Holy Spirit? That makes no sense at all, Clownboat. Truly, none.

Things like this give me cause to question your claim.

You see, you would have a point if people of all cultures had a similar idea of what a god is. The fact that they don't, does not increase the odds of there being a god behind all the differing gods, it does the opposite and also points to there being a motive behind them being invented.

I see it differently. I see it as all of them starting out in one place with one God... and throughout time and history, etc, different god concepts developed and emerged, based upon what people wanted to be true. Some would have exploited that and so created religions.

All these thousands of god concepts created by man about differing gods that cannot all exist (due to the claims made about them), and that for some reason points you to a singular god? I must ask, have you done your due diligence with old religions? How did the Mayans for example get from the Garden of Eden side of the world to South America and why did their gods vary so much from your god? Again, if what you said was true (they all stemmed from one original god), then we would see similarities with religious beliefs. What do we have in reality though.... gods vomiting up the earth and such.

There are similar beliefs, such as with their 'god' Quetzalcoatl (or is that the Aztecs?) The name means Feathered Serpent. (it has another meaning as well, but that is another discussion)

Serpent being dragon being seraph: angels (flying fiery serpents... hence the original serpent in the Garden of Eden being the Adversary; who was not a snake, but a seraph: angel) They are in many different legends, including the chinese dragons standing guard at the temple.

They also built the same altars (pyramids) as the Egyptians, if on a different scale. They just performed sacrifices on top of theirs, while the Egyptians buried their dead under theirs.

Israel performed sacrifices atop the altar; and in the Book of Revelation, those in Christ awaiting the first resurrection are under the altar.


Each sect and denomination of Christendom has some truth in it, and then also things that they have added, misunderstood, taken away from, etc. Christendom is a small scale example of how that could have happened with the major and ancient religions as well (just over a larger time scale).


I love this part of our discussion, but it is a large enough post as is, so perhaps we can continue on this part another time, another thread. I love what my Lord has taught me about this and all things, of course, but it is very interesting to learn that all of these other religions knew also of God Most High at one point, and had some truths carried to them, but went astray. Israel is not the first people to know Him; Abraham was not Israel, He was called out of His people, though they had some knowledge of God Most High as well, or Abraham would not have known the One calling Him out. Melchizidek knew God Most High, and he was not from Abraham; then of course there are those before them, and to Noah, and before his people, and all the way back to Adam and Eve.

I understand that you might evaluate and process this information differently, and maybe you don't find it as fascinating as I do. Or maybe you do, but for a different reason. Either way, perhaps we can have another discussion on it.

I'm not ignoring these things, but you failed to address the actual geography argument that what religion you belong to generally stems from your geographic location on this planet. There are exceptions to every rule obviously.

But I don't disagree with you that what religion you belong to generally stems from your geographic location on the planet.

Great. I use this agreement to further my 'most don't seem to do their due diligence' thought that I noticed while growing up and have put forth in this thread.

So we are agreed on this point. Therefore, to assume that I have not done due diligence was perhaps a bit presumptuous on your behalf?

Please stop trying to make this about you.

You made this about me:

I would want to learn first. You on the other hand seem OK with just picking concepts to decide to believe in without first doing your due diligence (is the thing real?).

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. - Socrates

I have not slandered you, Clownboat. I have responded to your specific words, despite your claim now that you were not referring to me. Your words are there in black and white. Perhaps you could withdraw your implications as to me with regard to your Socrates quote.

You get me wrong. You see Tam, I don't need to disprove any religion. They need to be shown true first. Geography is not a reason to reject a god concept. It does affect which one people choose though ironically.

I was speaking in general. Being born into a place that is predominantly Christian (or Muslim or Hindu) is not a valid reason to accept it as truth, nor a valid reason to reject it as truth.

It should stand or fall on its own merits.

Agreed. You can stop evidencing my lack of due diligence claim anytime now. It's appreciated though, but we seem to agree that people more often then not find their religion based off of their geography, not because they have done their due diligence and found the one true god. Tam, being unknown and not being commented on.

Since you have now retracted what you originally said, I have nothing more to say on the matter. The whole point in my response to you on that matter was with regard to what you originally said as to me. I was curious about your assumption, and I do find it odd when others make the same assumption about me or anyone else.

I might be a muslim (if only on the surface) if I were born into a Muslim county that did not allow one TO choose, or give one an opportunity to freely learn other faiths as well. But then, that same thing would apply to you.

This applies to everyone. It is why the geography argument is sound.

My God is the Father of Christ. My Lord is Christ.

Therefore, the Father of Christ is your god concept. You can't say you don't have a god concept and then go on to explain who your god concept is and hope to be taken seriously.

Please define concept how you are using it.

con·cept
noun
an abstract idea; a general notion.
- Muslims have a concept/idea (see definition above) of what the one true god is. His name is Allah and he had Mohammed as his prophet.
- Some Africans have a concept/idea of a god that creates storms, his name is Shango and was once a great warrior.
- The Aboriginals have a concept/idea of a god of fertility. Her name is Birrahgnooloo.
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have a god concept/idea that there is the one true god (you pick the Hebrew god), and he sent his son Christ to the world and this Christ speaks to you.

These are all concepts/ideas about gods.

This is what I thought you meant.

I do not have a 'god idea'. I have knowledge of (know) God, through having knowledge of (knowing) Christ.

I acknowledge that you cannot accept this; but I do not need to use your words (god IDEA) that apply to your pov, when speaking from my own pov.

God is not an abstract idea or a general notion, not to me. He is known through knowing Christ.

So you will continue to state that I have a god idea, and i will continue to state that I do not. I don't need to debate the point with you; but I will not cede to your words or description of what I may or may not have.

Because I fear I know them exactly as well as you know them, if you get my meaning.

I get your meaning. So you should be able to understand why I have a hard time with your claim of having once been filled with holy spirit, which would have been given to you by Christ.

Of course you have a hard time with it. It is uncomfortable knowing that there are genuine people that had very similar beliefs to your own that have later found them to not be true.

It is not uncomfortable at all, Clownboat. It is expected. Indeed, BabylonTheGreat is a 'city' made up of people who believe that they are the Bride of Christ (she says "I sit as a queen", because she claims her husband to be the King: Christ; she says "I am not a widow; I will never mourn", because the one she claims as her husband does not die); however, she does not remain faithful to Him alone.

Some will fall away and/or be unfaithful, and some were never in Him to begin with, despite the sincerity of their belief.


The only reason I have a hard time believing you... is because of the things that you SAY. Not because it is impossible that such a thing could happen.

Perhaps it seems that way to you because you jumped into a conversation that was a specific response to a specific question asked. Which question was not... 'how do I know Christ is real'... but instead WAS... "how do I hear Christ'.

You just cannot answer the questions posed to you now can you? I now see you resorting to placing the blame on me. Either way, to first believe something is real before finding out if something is real is to put the cart before the horse.

Because faith is something you have or do not have, a gift from God. It is not something I can give to you.

Do you due diligence here please, and explain how any religion on this planet could be created and followed without 'faith' being involved.

Because one could take truth as received from Christ - what He gave to you (general you) or to another from whom you (general you) are stealing - in order to use that bit of truth to create a religion, and gain followers after yourself.

Then people are following what they SEE. Whereas faith is based upon what is HEARD, but not seen.

Yes, you embrace faith as if it is something great like I once did. I now understand that a false religion MUST have faith and notice that if a religion was actually true, faith would not be a requirement.

Dear Clownboat, I have faith. But I am part of no religion. My Lord led me OUT of her (BTG) and all religion, including her daughters. Faith does not require that you stop thinking, stop questioning, stop testing. Religion might teach that, in order to keep you in them, and in order to keep you from questioning or testing what they claim and tell you to do (general you).

But Christ does not. Indeed, Christ praised those who tested those who claim to be apostles, but who were false. John said that we must test the spirits to see if they are from Christ.

Christ Himself said that we are to remain in HIM... and that false christs and false prophets would come. How could you ever know who is who if you are not testing them and their claims against Christ, Himself?

So I don't have an answer for your questions, other than to say that if you want to know Christ, if you want to be drawn to Him, to be given faith, then ask.

I'm not sure how I can correct your ignorance here. You just do not know, nor understand what I went through trying to keep my beliefs. The prayers for faith and the tears for god to make himself known to me went on for years. I'm not alone here either, other people on this site had very similar experiences.

I have no reason not to believe you for your sincerity according to what you believed was true.

But the things you say... they are not in line with Truth. If you prayed and received such gifts, then your prayers were answered. But you claim that they were not. So what am I to think about these gifts you claim to have received?

[

quote]I have never written you off or said that you cannot understand. I have no control over those things. Why not ask these questions of Christ if you have holy spirit from Him?

Gah, you are literally asking my why I don't due things I literally did for years. I tell you I did, and you just seem to stick your head in the sand and tell me to do it again.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein

[/quote]

It is a good quote. But I think you are still doing the same thing, just from a different pov.


I am not going to play word games with you Clownboat, so let me speak plainly.

I do not think you knew my Lord. I have no reason to doubt that you wanted to, and even tried to follow 'Jesus'. But I think you got caught up in religion (or were born into it), and followed man instead. I think this based upon what you have said about yourself, and testing that against Truth/Christ. What you say about the gifts you received makes no sense; and as long as you were still touching the unclean thing (BTG, and her daughters, the lies in them, the lies taught about God), then Christ could not have taken you in. He could certainly have been calling you OUT of her, as HE says, "Come out of her my people!"


He also says, "Stop touching the unclean thing, and I will take you in."

And he says: "Come to ME!"

Both Babylon the Great and religion are unclean, full of lies, their hands covered in blood from all the people killed on their orders, from their teachings, including the saints (anointed ones in Christ, ie, Christians), lives destroyed, faith destroyed, wars fought, etc, etc.


Your Christian school could not have taught you these things, because it does not know them. Your religion (whatever sect/denomination) you belonged to could not teach you these things, because it does not know them. People make the Bible say whatever they want it to say, so that can not lead you into all truth either.

Christ is the Only One who can teach and lead you into all truth. But you have to be listening to Him, and His voice is necessarily in conflict with hers.


Come out of her, my people.

Stop touching the unclean thing and I will take you in.

Come to ME. Follow ME. Remain in MY word. Obey MY commands.

Christ, Himself. Jaheshua, the Holy Spirit and Holy One of Israel, Chosen One and Son of His Father, Jah(veh), who is Himself the Most Holy One of Israel, God Most High.


By insisting that you did it right, and He did not answer (or does not exist), are you seeking first the Kingdom and HIS righteousness - or are you seeking your own righteousness, seeking to justify yourself instead, and at His expense? What is that getting you by way of response from Him?


But the door is still open. So instead of continuing over and over again to do things 'your' way and expecting a different result (or just giving up), you could instead try things His way.



May you and anyone who wishes them, be given ears so as to get a sense of these things, and so that you may also hear the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."

Which water is holy spirit, poured out from the Life (Christ) which has been given to Him without end from His Father.

And if you do not believe He exists, then what do you care what I have to say as i learned from Him?

If we were not on a debate site debating, be sure that I would not care what you have to say.

This is not the debating part of the forum.

If you do not truly want something, why would you ask for it?

I'm not sure. Who suggest that you should ask for things that you don't want?

Are you not here calling me to task for prefacing my words to Ken with... "if you truly want to come to Christ, if you truly want to hear Him."

No, I'm pointing out the futility of it.
Again, what difference would it make if I 'truly want Big Foot' to be true? Would it affect the real world.
What if I truly want alien visits to be real, would that affect the real world?
Now what if I truly want Christ to be real? Somehow that magically affects the real world?

I answered those questions in my last post. I have nothing new to say about them.

I see it more like... you must first be convinced that you are sick (original sin) before I can sell you the medicine (Christ died for your sins). Convincing someone that they are sick and need medicine affects the real world. This is what 'you must first truly want Christ' reminds me of.

If that is what it reminds you of, then I would suggest that your former belief (not mine) and former 'preaching' is influencing you.

I cannot convince you that He exists. But those who want to go to Him, to know Him for Himself... as I would expect someone does want if they ask me HOW they can hear Him... that is the question that I answered.

Then you do believe that Christ and God exist, and that there is such thing as holy spirit?

I did, more fervently then you will ever know.

If you say that you still have holy spirit, then doesn't that mean you DO still believe, rather than that you DID believe?

I'm sorry Tam, but this is more bad logic.
You just said that if you want to know Christ and to hear Christ, then you will do what they have said to do.
How can we know what is being told when we cannot yet hear? This seems to be more cart before the horse.

You can at least start with what Christ is written to have said and done.

Why not the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita? The Gita is older after all.

Because we are talking about Christ, and hearing from Him. I have read the Quran; there is not a lot in there from Christ. A few bits about Jesus and Mary, but nothing from Christ (that I recall). I'm guessing the same thing for the Gita.

You being convinced that you have it right is just not very good information for me to make a decision on. Besides, I've read the Bible from cover to cover, I went to Christian school and I went to church at least 6 times a week. I believe I have done my due diligence.

So there is the answer to the question that I asked. You did, indeed, have religion; you were indeed part of religion.

Where in any of what you describe above is you hearing from the Living Word of God: Christ; the Living Spirit: Christ; the Living Image of God: Christ?

This is not very convincing Tam. You are basically saying, that what you say is true except for when it is not.

I have no idea how you got that from what I said.

That is strange. You said: " if you do not truly want to hear Him... then you will not". The go on to reference where Paul/Saul did not want to hear/know him, but then god made it happen anyway.

I stated there were exceptions... though only one exception that I know of, that of Saul to Paul. But for the most part, we do not hear if we do not want to hear.

Although if you were/are indeed filled with holy spirit as you say, then He did answer you long ago.

And if you could actually hear Christ, then you would know what the piece of paper on my desk says. It's still there and has been for well over a month.

Only if He wished to play your game and told me, and providing I put faith in what I heard from Him.

You do recall his words to those who asked for a sign, though, right?

Either way, that was a deflection from the point I posed as to you.

What you say is said out of ignorance.

Just trying to reason through your responses. Test whether or not you were/are false or true, because many false apostles have gone out into the world, and Christ warned about false Christ and false prophets. If there are false christs and false apostles, and there are those who follow them, then there are false Christians as well.

Tam, you have zero choice in this matter. For you, I MUST have been a false Christian. Facts be damned.

Oh, I have a choice. You could have been true, but rejected Him or fallen away or given up your faith because the cross was too great to bear, etc.

But there are also those who claim to be Christians who are not, and those who say "Lord Lord' but do not do what He says, and those who believe that they have done things in His name, but He tells them that He never knew them.

There are also false apostles, false christs, lying spirits, false prophets... and those who follow them. So just making a claim, even if you sincerely believe that you were in Christ, does not make it true. Everyone sincerely believes (well, perhaps not everyone, but I would guess that most do) that they are true. But we can know that this is NOT true, simply based on all the contradictory beliefs and claims... and also because Christ said there would be such ones.

Again, I am not expecting you to take my word for it; so surely you would not have a problem with me not simply taking your word for it.

This is silly.
You actually think claims like, 'I was a Christian for 2 decades' is equal to a claim that 'you hear the voice of a god speaking to you'? These are not equal claims Tam and you should know it.

Oh, I know they are not the same claim.. although for some reason, some cannot seem to get it accurate that i say that I hear the voice of Christ speaking to me.

But a Christian is supposed to hear the voice of Christ. I am not going to rewrite the OP in this post.

If you really heard from Christ, why are your arguments not convincing (what you say is true except for when it is not) and why are they made out of ignorance (I'm an atheists and wasn't sincere)?

Christ Himself was rejected by more than those who accepted Him. Indeed, all but the twelve left Him at one point. A student is not greater than his/her master.

This does not explain why your arguments and reasoning fail here.
You claim to hear the voice of your great master, but it does not come through here.

What argument did I make, and how did it fail?

In addition to that, I am sometimes unclear in my wording.

Just type what he says to you, word for word. Humans I expect to be unclear at times, all powerful god concepts, not so much.

Then ask Christ, yourself.

But just on its own, someone not being convinced does not mean anything. Because even Christ was rejected, and He said that we would be as well.

This is some odd thinking IMO.
What it creates is an environment where people can make odd claims, have people doubt them, and that is justification to believe the said claim because, well... Christ was reject too.

I state directly below this post that I do not use that as an excuse (justification):

I don't fall back on that as an excuse; I just state it because that is what He taught. Which as a former Christian, you would already know.

I hope you do not take offense at anything I have shared. There is no anger in my tone. There is no fear. There is hope, that perhaps you will consider that Christ did answer or IS answering, but that you did not and are not listening to Him. Perhaps because those you do listen to never taught you that the truth. Either way, whatever you do with these words or not, thank you for the discussion.


May you have peace Clownboat (and may anyone else reading this post have peace as well),

your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Clownboat]

Dear Clownboat, if you are addressing me,

I said 'many'. So it does not exclude you as a possibility, but what it certainly doesn't do is include you. So I was addressing something you said in your post, but not you. I don't know you as well as you seem to think I do.

please tell me when I have made this about Christians versus anyone?

First of all, I said I see MANY Christians doing this, NOT that I see many Tam doing this.
But to answer your question: Tam said - "Now there is something that you have said, that some other atheists have said."
Since I'm not an atheists, it sure seems like you just lumped me into that group willy nilly. You vs what you hear atheists saying and then insert me into said group. Therefore, us vs them, or more specifically, Tam vs atheists of which Clownboat must belong.

Anyone may come to Christ... and even of those who do not come to Christ, among them are the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) who enter into the Kingdom due to the law (of love) being upon their heart, made manifest if what they DO.

Of course there would be no war and the men knew it. They just love to talk and to hear themselves talk. - 'Gone with the Wind' Pg56

All humans are not on the same team because not all humans are interesting in treating others with love. But there are those from every walk of life (every belief or non-belief system, every sexual orientation, etc) who have love upon their hearts, and who act according to that law.

This is creating an us vs them Tam.
What isn't would be acknowledging that we are all on the same team while having differences. Differences like whether a person is Christian or Muslim should only matter to religious people.

For all I know Tam, you have studied evolution and other religious options, but you are not included in my 2 decade sample size. Please stop trying to insert yourself.

I am not trying to insert myself. YOU inserted ME when you said to me:

I would want to learn first. You on the other hand seem OK with just picking concepts to decide to believe in without first doing your due diligence (is the thing real?).

I stand by this personal observation that I cannot show to be true and admit that I could be in error. However, you are still not included in my 2 decade sample size.

And if you wish to instead state now that you meant a general 'you', then would it not actually be you who is showing an 'us' versus 'them' mentality?

I did not mean a general you.
You on the other hand seem OK.
Pay attention to the words in bold. If I was wrong about what I claimed 'seemed to be', take that as your opportunity to show just how wrong I am if you wish.

As for what we have in common, this phrase, "I have a relationship, not religion" is not one that I have used. I have stated that I have faith, not religion.

Semantics. Not wanting to be associated with a religion is something we had in common. I claimed I had a relationship, you claim you have faith instead. Ironically though, a person can't be religious without having faith?

It is hard to know whether we have (had) that in common without knowing much about your past as a former believer. Were you part of any sect or denomination?

No Tam, I had a relationship, not a religion remember.
Looking back, even though we claimed to not belong to religion (like you now do), calling me 'Full Gospel' or 'Pentecostal' would probably be the closest to reality. Now you can claim how different we were because you don't have a religion (like I use to say) because you have a faith (like I did, but I called it a relationship). Seems like a futile argument for you to undertake though.

Because all of those are part of religion. One cannot say that they have a relationship, and not religion, if one is part of religion. (organized religion, for the sake of clarity between us)

You just aren't getting it are you? I refused to accept that I belonged to any religion (I was ignorant of what the word meant like some others seem to be).
I was religious, because I worshiped a god, like you. However, when people would ask what I belonged to, I either referenced the 'relationship part' or would just shrug and say we teach what the Bible says, call me what you want.

You realize that when the gift of tongues was given at Pentecost, the tongues were actual languages that other people spoke? Is that the gift that you have?

Yes, I speak more than one language, but that is not the 'tongues' I am referring to.
Tam, what I don't realize is that an actual Pentecost event took place. If you have credible evidence, please supply it.

Regardless, since tongues is a gift of the Spirit, how can you claim to have that gift and only be 'open' to there being a Holy Spirit? That makes no sense at all, Clownboat. Truly, none.

What you would call the Holy Spirit, others may call your own imagination. Let's rephrase what you said for a minute with that thought in mind:
Since tongues is a gift of the imagination, how can you claim to have an imagination without first imagining that there is a spirit to provide said imagination.

Imagine we are listening to our conscious telling us to do something or to not do something. You can use your imagination to say that you are hearing a Holy Spirit. I say I'm hearing my conscious, just like everyone on this planet seems to hear, but I'm open to being shown evidence that my conscious is actually a holy spirit.

Things like this give me cause to question your claim.

Keep in mind, I'm here for the readers. I've been doing this long enough to know that you cannot change you mind until you can overcome the fears that Christianity many times instills. Like fear of hell or fear of what your (generic) family will say/think. There is hope though, many of us here have already been set free, but I debate to sharpen my own thinking and to perhaps influence some readers, not some foolish hope that I will convince you of anything.

There are similar beliefs, such as with their 'god' Quetzalcoatl (or is that the Aztecs?) The name means Feathered Serpent. (it has another meaning as well, but that is another discussion)

Serpent being dragon being seraph: angels (flying fiery serpents... hence the original serpent in the Garden of Eden being the Adversary; who was not a snake, but a seraph: angel) They are in many different legends, including the chinese dragons standing guard at the temple.

They also built the same altars (pyramids) as the Egyptians, if on a different scale. They just performed sacrifices on top of theirs, while the Egyptians buried their dead under theirs.

Israel performed sacrifices atop the altar; and in the Book of Revelation, those in Christ awaiting the first resurrection are under the altar.

Is this truly your best evidence? A guess that one god is behind all religions because of such scant similarities while ignoring significant differences.
You have done your due diligence in regards to the many, many differing god concepts right? Do you just ignore the differing acts of creation? A 7 day event is a lot different them vomiting up the world in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Each sect and denomination of Christendom has some truth in it, and then also things that they have added, misunderstood, taken away from, etc. Christendom is a small scale example of how that could have happened with the major and ancient religions as well (just over a larger time scale).

So what are your thoughts about the religions that predate Christianity? If religious ideas stem from other religions, then being a Hindu would get us closer to a real god then Christianity ever could. According to your argument anyways.

...but it is very interesting to learn that all of these other religions knew also of God Most High at one point, and had some truths carried to them, but went astray.

I truly hope you will start an OP on this claim.

God is not an abstract idea or a general notion, not to me. He is known through knowing Christ.

This is true, but do you know what else is true? Many people claim to hear voices in their heads. Many of them believe these voices. We don't know if all of them, or just some of them suffer from mental illness or schizophrenia. Therefore you just being so sure of yourself does not go far here in debate. Have the voice tell you what is on the piece of paper on my desk and that would be amazing. Have that 'voice' tell you only things that my 'conscious' also says to me, and it just makes it seem like you are calling your 'conscious/inner voice' Christ.

So you will continue to state that I have a god idea, and i will continue to state that I do not. I don't need to debate the point with you; but I will not cede to your words or description of what I may or may not have.

This is painfully obvious as has been demonstrated by the fact that you worship a god, but still claim to not be religious. I trust this is not all lost on the readers here.

Of course you have a hard time with it. It is uncomfortable knowing that there are genuine people that had very similar beliefs to your own that have later found them to not be true.

It is not uncomfortable at all, Clownboat. It is expected. Indeed, BabylonTheGreat is a 'city' made up of people who believe that they are the Bride of Christ (she says "I sit as a queen", because she claims her husband to be the King: Christ; she says "I am not a widow; I will never mourn", because the one she claims as her husband does not die); however, she does not remain faithful to Him alone.

Should I quote from Gone with the Wind again? It would be as meaningful as your words above.

The only reason I have a hard time believing you... is because of the things that you SAY. Not because it is impossible that such a thing could happen.

Again, keep in mind, I'm here to sharpen my thinking and perhaps to influence some readers. You believing me or not does not affect either of those things.

Do you due diligence here please, and explain how any religion on this planet could be created and followed without 'faith' being involved.

Because one could take truth as received from Christ - what He gave to you (general you) or to another from whom you (general you) are stealing - in order to use that bit of truth to create a religion, and gain followers after yourself.

I believe the readers will notice that you failed to show a way to create a religion without invoking faith.

Then people are following what they SEE. Whereas faith is based upon what is HEARD, but not seen.

I'm confused again. Does faith lead to Christ, or is faith required to believe every religion out there? The latter was my point.

Dear Clownboat, I have faith.

Yes, and faith is needed in order to believe in false religions. Perhaps it is also needed to believe in the one true god/religion, but that has yet to be shown.

But I am part of no religion.

Readers, please decide for yourself.
Religion: Noun - the belief in a god or in a group of gods
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

Christ Himself said that we are to remain in HIM... and that false christs and false prophets would come. How could you ever know who is who if you are not testing them and their claims against Christ, Himself?

Honestly? Be skeptical, do not invoke faith! Faith leads to false religious beliefs. Perhaps it also leads to the one true belief, but that has yet to have been shown.

But the things you say... they are not in line with Truth. If you prayed and received such gifts, then your prayers were answered. But you claim that they were not. So what am I to think about these gifts you claim to have received?

Again, consider for a moment that us humans have an imagination. Consider how one person could consider their inner voice/conscious (whatever you want to call it) to be a spirit or Christ of some sort, while another person just imagines it being their inner voice/conscious.

I still hear that inner voice, but I no longer imagine that there is a Holy Spirit or Christ behind it. How about you?

I am not going to play word games with you Clownboat, so let me speak plainly.

I do not think you knew my Lord. I have no reason to doubt that you wanted to, and even tried to follow 'Jesus'. But I think you got caught up in religion (or were born into it), and followed man instead. I think this based upon what you have said about yourself, and testing that against Truth/Christ. What you say about the gifts you received makes no sense; and as long as you were still touching the unclean thing (BTG, and her daughters, the lies in them, the lies taught about God), then Christ could not have taken you in. He could certainly have been calling you OUT of her, as HE says, "Come out of her my people!"

Readers, please consider how credible Tam's claims about my 2 decades of belief sound to you.

Both Babylon the Great and religion are unclean, full of lies, their hands covered in blood from all the people killed on their orders, from their teachings, including the saints (anointed ones in Christ, ie, Christians), lives destroyed, faith destroyed, wars fought, etc, etc.

Gah! Of course there would be no war and the men knew it.....

Your Christian school could not have taught you these things, because it does not know them. Your religion (whatever sect/denomination) you belonged to could not teach you these things, because it does not know them. People make the Bible say whatever they want it to say, so that can not lead you into all truth either.

First of all, please stop pretending to know my Christian school and church.
Secondly, it is a fact that we can use the Bible to make it say all sorts of contradictory things, so I have no issue with your 2nd part.

Christ is the Only One who can teach and lead you into all truth. But you have to be listening to Him, and His voice is necessarily in conflict with hers.

We all know you hear voices Tam. How can we know that your Christ voice is actually the son of a god though? Prove that, and your empty claims like above will not be so empty.

Christ, Himself. Jaheshua, the Holy Spirit and Holy One of Israel, Chosen One and Son of His Father, Jah(veh), who is Himself the Most Holy One of Israel, God Most High.

Holy crap! 'Alluha Ackbar' and 'peace be upon him' much?

By insisting that you did it right, and He did not answer (or does not exist), are you seeking first the Kingdom and HIS righteousness - or are you seeking your own righteousness, seeking to justify yourself instead, and at His expense? What is that getting you by way of response from Him?

It has been a long time since I have prayed to god to make himself real, so this no longer applies to me.
Now, I am open to being shown that one or many god concepts are true. If your Christ (the one I served for 2 decades) would like to make himself known to me, he knows how it can be done. He did not answer when I was praying through tears because I was horrified that I was slowing losing my beliefs (horrified of hell, horrified of what my family would think), so I don't know why he would care now though.

But the door is still open. So instead of continuing over and over again to do things 'your' way and expecting a different result (or just giving up), you could instead try things His way.

Is his way claiming to hear his voice without being able to show that I speak the truth, or are you alluding to some other way? Ironically, his claimed way is actually just you making claims on behalf of a god concept. You know, much like what tribal shamans do. Should I also believe their claims, or just yours?

This is not the debating part of the forum.

Readers, we are in the 'Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index' are we not?

I see it more like... you must first be convinced that you are sick (original sin) before I can sell you the medicine (Christ died for your sins). Convincing someone that they are sick and need medicine affects the real world. This is what 'you must first truly want Christ' reminds me of.

If that is what it reminds you of, then I would suggest that your former belief (not mine) and former 'preaching' is influencing you.

You can suggest it, but can you show that my words are wrong. Two very different things.

You can at least start with what Christ is written to have said and done.

Why not the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita? The Gita is older after all.[/quote]

Because we are talking about Christ, and hearing from Him. I have read the Quran; there is not a lot in there from Christ. A few bits about Jesus and Mary, but nothing from Christ (that I recall). I'm guessing the same thing for the Gita.

But the Gita is older, and if what you suggested is true, that religions have borrowed ultimately from one true religion/god, then the Gita would be closer to truth and the Christ concept just an adaptation.

So there is the answer to the question that I asked. You did, indeed, have religion; you were indeed part of religion.

You serve a god... so, so are you.

Where in any of what you describe above is you hearing from the Living Word of God: Christ; the Living Spirit: Christ; the Living Image of God: Christ?

Please evidence that these things you claim we can hear from are more than our imagination. I would like to avoid having discussion about make believe.

I stated there were exceptions... though only one exception that I know of, that of Saul to Paul. But for the most part, we do not hear if we do not want to hear.

Right. Like I said, except for when it does happen this way, like with Paul/Saul.
Where is my analysis of your statement wrong?
"We do not hear if we do not want to hear, except for when we do?"
If it's not wrong, you must understand how ineffectual this kind of logic is, right?

And if you could actually hear Christ, then you would know what the piece of paper on my desk says. It's still there and has been for well over a month.

Only if He wished to play your game and told me, and providing I put faith in what I heard from Him.

Now why would he do that? Does he not love me like a father loves their son? I play games with my children every day, but I love them and care about them. If Christ was just imagination, I would expect him to act the way I see him acting. Which is, "not seeing him act".

You do recall his words to those who asked for a sign, though, right?

I understand that false religions (perhaps even Christianity) would need to build in this type of a defense mechanism. Otherwise skeptics would be expecting some sort of activity from said god.
False beliefs need protection from skeptics. Now why does Christianity need this type of protection built in do you think?

Tam, you have zero choice in this matter. For you, I MUST have been a false Christian. Facts be damned.

Oh, I have a choice. You could have been true, but rejected Him or fallen away or given up your faith because the cross was too great to bear, etc.

How is that not believing that I just must have been a false Christian?
Readers, decide for yourself if Tam really leaves the possibility open that I was an honest to goodness Christian.
It seems like I am right and she MUST find a way to discredit my 2 decades of belief.
"The cross was too great to bear"! Good one.
Readers, decide if you feel like she is arguing this for emotional reasons (to protect her own beliefs) or if it's just more likely that I couldn't bear the cross or some such baloney.

But there are also those who claim to be Christians who are not, and those who say "Lord Lord' but do not do what He says, and those who believe that they have done things in His name, but He tells them that He never knew them.

Yes Tam, there are all sorts of Christians. Some even claim to be Jesus or Mary reborn and some claim to be able to speak to him. Not sure what your point is.

There are also false apostles, false christs, lying spirits, false prophets... and those who follow them. So just making a claim, even if you sincerely believe that you were in Christ, does not make it true. Everyone sincerely believes (well, perhaps not everyone, but I would guess that most do) that they are true. But we can know that this is NOT true, simply based on all the contradictory beliefs and claims... and also because Christ said there would be such ones.

Due to all that you just said, you're OK if I make my own judgement about the voice you claim to hear then right?

This is silly.
You actually think claims like, 'I was a Christian for 2 decades' is equal to a claim that 'you hear the voice of a god speaking to you'? These are not equal claims Tam and you should know it.

Oh, I know they are not the same claim.. although for some reason, some cannot seem to get it accurate that i say that I hear the voice of Christ speaking to me.

Who cares? What difference does it make that you claim to hear Christ? Why must I discount people that claim to be Christ reborn, or Muslims that claim to hear from Allah, but not you? Just because you claim 'Christ'?
What difference does it make if you claim to hear from the Easter Bunny compared to hearing from a Christ? They are both voices you would be claiming to hear but not able to evidence.

But a Christian is supposed to hear the voice of Christ. I am not going to rewrite the OP in this post.

It is possible that said Christian is mentally ill, or they are hearing the subconscious and imagining that they are hearing from the Easter Bunny. I mean a god.

In addition to that, I am sometimes unclear in my wording.

Just type what he says to you, word for word. Humans I expect to be unclear at times, all powerful god concepts, not so much.

Then ask Christ, yourself.

I could try that, but will it really make your words more clear here? I would think that writing down word for word what you hear would be more effective. No?

I hope you do not take offense at anything I have shared. There is no anger in my tone. There is no fear. There is hope, that perhaps you will consider that Christ did answer or IS answering, but that you did not and are not listening to Him. Perhaps because those you do listen to never taught you that the truth. Either way, whatever you do with these words or not, thank you for the discussion.

No offense taken Tam. This is a debate site and disagreement should be expected.

May you have peace Clownboat (and may anyone else reading this post have peace as well),

And may you be mentally healthy (and may anyone else reading this post also be mentally healthy as well).

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 47 by tam]

I do not think you knew my Lord. I have no reason to doubt that you wanted to, and even tried to follow 'Jesus'. But I think you got caught up in religion (or were born into it), and followed man instead. I think this based upon what you have said about yourself, and testing that against Truth/Christ. What you say about the gifts you received makes no sense; and as long as you were still touching the unclean thing (BTG, and her daughters, the lies in them, the lies taught about God), then Christ could not have taken you in. He could certainly have been calling you OUT of her, as HE says, "Come out of her my people!"

Readers, please notice that in her dialogue with Clownboat, tam calls his former belief false, says/intimates that her own is true (with a capital T no less) but offers absolutely NO way for anyone to verify her claims. She says that there are false prophets out there, people who claim to hear and/or speak for Christ, but does not explain how a third party is able to verify that she is not included in that group, how she herself can show that what she teaches or says is not lies.

[tam]

[Replying to post 47 by tam]

I do not think you knew my Lord. I have no reason to doubt that you wanted to, and even tried to follow 'Jesus'. But I think you got caught up in religion (or were born into it), and followed man instead. I think this based upon what you have said about yourself, and testing that against Truth/Christ. What you say about the gifts you received makes no sense; and as long as you were still touching the unclean thing (BTG, and her daughters, the lies in them, the lies taught about God), then Christ could not have taken you in. He could certainly have been calling you OUT of her, as HE says, "Come out of her my people!"

Readers, please notice that in her dialogue with Clownboat, tam calls his former belief false, says/intimates that her own is true (with a capital T no less) but offers absolutely NO way for anyone to verify her claims. She says that there are false prophets out there, people who claim to hear and/or speak for Christ, but does not explain how a third party is able to verify that she is not included in that group, how she herself can show that what she teaches or says is not lies.

Dear readers,

Test anything I have shared (as I learned from Christ) against Christ (if you hear Him, then ask Him; if you do not hear Him then check it against what Christ is written to have said and done); and test it against love, because nothing that comes from Christ or God is in conflict with love.

(and I associated capital T truth with Christ; not myself)


Nor have I ever said ever that anyone should listen to or follow me; or that I am a teacher. We have one teacher: Christ. I am just a witness pointing to Him. HE is the test of truth, because He IS the Truth. Not me. Not religion. Not man. Not tradition. Just Christ. Listen to Him. Not because I say so, but because God said:

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him." (mark 9:7)

And because Christ said:

"I am the Truth, the Way, and the Life." and "Come, follow me."


Of course if you are not a disciple of Christ, then do as you choose and may you have peace on your path. But if you are a disciple of Christ, then these words should matter. Not mine. But Christ's and God's.


Peace to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy