If Christianity is based upon the Bible, and if the Bible is “the infallible word of god” (or even the fallible word of god) why are 33,830 different Christian denominations recognized by the World Christian Encyclopedia?
Supposedly these denominations are all worshiping the same god from the same (or similar) ancient text. How can one god be “infallibly correct” in 33,830 different ways?
If there are at least 33,000 different “interpretations” of “god’s word”, it seems as though any interpretation can be just as valid as any other and words can be “redefined” to mean exactly the opposite of their common meaning.
Why are there 33,839 different Christian denominations?
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Re: Why are there 33,839 different Christian denominations?
Post #101This is a great question. There are hundreds of sects who had portions of the truth as taught originally by Christ. After He and the apostles died, there was an apostasy, as foretold in 2 Thes. During this time, well-meaning reformists took remnants of the splintered truths and built churches around those tenets, without authority from God.Zzyzx wrote:If Christianity is based upon the Bible, and if the Bible is “the infallible word of god” (or even the fallible word of god) why are 33,830 different Christian denominations recognized by the World Christian Encyclopedia?
Supposedly these denominations are all worshiping the same god from the same (or similar) ancient text. How can one god be “infallibly correct” in 33,830 different ways?
If there are at least 33,000 different “interpretations” of “god’s word”, it seems as though any interpretation can be just as valid as any other and words can be “redefined” to mean exactly the opposite of their common meaning.
The Mormons believe that that's why there was a restoration of the original gospel, through a brand new dispensation, in which God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared again, and re-established the truth on the earth for the last time, never again to be taken away.
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Cathar1950
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Re: Why are there 33,839 different Christian denominations?
Post #102There is no indication they ever fell into apostasy and it seems there was diversity from the start. Paul admits he teaches a diffrent Jesus and a diffrent gospel from those of James and claims he got his info from Jesus himself as the risen "Christ".krosetm wrote:This is a great question. There are hundreds of sects who had portions of the truth as taught originally by Christ. After He and the apostles died, there was an apostasy, as foretold in 2 Thes. During this time, well-meaning reformists took remnants of the splintered truths and built churches around those tenets, without authority from God.Zzyzx wrote:If Christianity is based upon the Bible, and if the Bible is “the infallible word of god” (or even the fallible word of god) why are 33,830 different Christian denominations recognized by the World Christian Encyclopedia?
Supposedly these denominations are all worshiping the same god from the same (or similar) ancient text. How can one god be “infallibly correct” in 33,830 different ways?
If there are at least 33,000 different “interpretations” of “god’s word”, it seems as though any interpretation can be just as valid as any other and words can be “redefined” to mean exactly the opposite of their common meaning.
The Mormons believe that that's why there was a restoration of the original gospel, through a brand new dispensation, in which God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared again, and re-established the truth on the earth for the last time, never again to be taken away.
Even the Hebrew writings don't sound like the the NT teachings as you first were a Christians before you had the Spirit showing you the mysteries.
2 Thes. is about Caligula and it looks like the Jewish Christians that seem to have been the original followers of Jesus outed Paul.
When you got the spirit showing you all things I guess anything goes.
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Catharsis
Post #103
The Church is not based on the Bible. Rather, the Bible is a product of the Church. For the first few centuries of the Christian era, no one could have put his hands on a single volume called The Bible. In fact, there was no one put his hands on a single volume called The Bible. In fact, there was no agreement regarding which books of Scripture were to be considered accurate and correct, or canonical. Looking back over history, there were various lists of the canonical books comprising the Bible:
* The Muratorian Canon (130 AD) cities all the books we considered as parts of the Bible today, except for Hebrews, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation/Apocalypse
* Canon 60 of the local Council of Laodicea (364 AD) cited Revelation/Apocalypse
* A festal Epistle by Saint Athanasius (369 AD) lists all of them.
Even so, there was no official, authoritative canon listing all the books until the Sixth Ecumenical Council, at Constantinople in AD 680. Canon II of that Council ratifies the First through the Fifth Ecumenical Councils, as well as the local councils at Carthage (AD 255), Ancyra (AD 315), Neocaesaria (AD 315), Gangra (AD 340), Antioch (AD 341), Laodicea (AD 364), Sardica (AD 347), Constantinople (AD 394), and Carthage (AD 419). When the Council at Laodicea specified the content of the bible as we know it — 39 years after the First Ecumenical Council (AD 325) and 17 years before the second Ecumenical Council (AD 381) — the Liturgy was pretty much well-defined and established and had been canonized by common usage — the reading from these books. It was not until the invention of the printing press in Western Europe, coinciding with the period of the Protestant Reformation of Western Christianity that The Bible was widely disseminated as a single volume.
When Protestant Western Christians reviewed the canonical books of Scripture, they adopted the Hebrew Canon accepted by the Jews since AD 100. — See The Books of the Old Testament
The so-called Apocrypha, or Deuterocanonical, books were a problem for Jews living after the time of Christ, since they often very clearly prophesy concerning Our Lord, and indicate His divinity. Some of the books were also problematic for both the Jews and the Protestants because they make prophetically evident the special role of the Theotokos in the oikonomia of salvation. In fact, the Orthodox Fathers cite passages quite effectively to discuss the Church's understanding of the role of the Theotokos. Also, the only scriptural reference to praying for the dead is found in a Deuterocanonical book: viz., Maccabees. Not surprisingly, these Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books were rejected from the canon of books indicated in the Jewish Scriptures. This canon was formally pronounced by a rabbinical council at Jamnia, which stated that all canonical Scripture had to have been written: in Palestine, in Hebrew (not Greek), and more then 400 years prior (300 BC) to that time.
In addition, the authorized Hebrew translation was at variance with the accepted Septuagint Greek versions, which had been prepared by 72 translators working in Alexandria Egypt. This is significant, because the Apostles, who were the authors of the New Testament, as well as the early Church Fathers, frequently cite passages only found in the Septuagint (Greek) Old Testament that have significant differences in meaning from the Hebrew. Moreover, they frequently cite passages from the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament.
The Holy Scriptures were produced by the Orthodox Church. The Church's holy prophets and Apostles wrote the books contained in the Bible. The Church determined which books were authoritative and belonged in Holy Scripture. The Church preserved and passed on the texts of these Scriptural books. According to tradition, the seventy-two Jewish rabbis and scholars who gave us the Septuagint Greek Old Testament, produced seventy-two identical Greek translations working independently and in insolation from one another. Writing in Greek, the Holy Apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude produced the books of the New Testament.
The Books of the Old Testament
When the Christian Church was formed, there was no recognised, official canon of Scriptures — the Jews were not a people of the book, they were a people of the Temple. When the Romans laid siege to Jerusalem, the Christians left the city because the results had been prophesied. When Jerusalem was taken and the Temple destroyed, the Jews — who already viewed the Christians suspiciously — now regarded them as traitors. Many blamed the Christians for their defeat by the Romans.
With the Temple destroyed, the Jewish religion had to be transformed. The bulk of the work was directed by the rabbinical school at Jamnia. This school standardised synagogue worship, which included expelling the Christians from the synagogues and adding curses against the Christians as part of the service. The school at Jamnia is most famous for determing which books were canonical. A Christian examining this needs to keep in mind that this determination was made in a virulently anti-Christian environment by Jews who hated the Christians. Even books which had widespread acceptance amongst Jews were suspect if they seemed to support the hated Christian sect. The school at Jamnia also rejected books which seemed to lack Hebraic origins (i.e. books which did not exist in Hebrew) and books that were overtly messianic (the rebellion against the Roman Empire was begun by Jews who thought a revolution would hasten the Messianic Age). Interestingly, the establishment of the Jewish feast of Hanukkah is found in 2 Maccabees 10:1-8. Although the Jews spurned the book, they continued to celebrate Hanuakkah — and do so to the present.
By this time (last decade of first century), the Christians were already predominantly Greek-speaking and were using the translation of the Old Testament books into the common Greek language done by the Jews in Alexandria in the third century B.C. This translation, now known as the Septuagint, is abbreviated as LXX, the Roman numeral for seventy, because there was a story that the translation was done by seventy translators who, although working separately, produced identical translations from the Hebrew to the Greek.
In this writer's opinion, no right-thinking Christian ought to think the first-century Christians should have followed that which was established by virulently anti-Christian rabbis — after these rabbis had already expelled the Christians from the synagogues. The historical fact is that the Christians continued to use the LXX and simply ignored the rabbinical decision. In fact, there was no challenge to using the books found in the LXX until the Protestant Revolution. At that point, Luther and others chose to follow the anti-Christian rabbinical teaching regarding which books were Scriptural instead of the unbroken practise of all Christians.
Old Testament Comparison Table
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/5654 ... books.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/5654 ... texts.html
* The Muratorian Canon (130 AD) cities all the books we considered as parts of the Bible today, except for Hebrews, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation/Apocalypse
* Canon 60 of the local Council of Laodicea (364 AD) cited Revelation/Apocalypse
* A festal Epistle by Saint Athanasius (369 AD) lists all of them.
Even so, there was no official, authoritative canon listing all the books until the Sixth Ecumenical Council, at Constantinople in AD 680. Canon II of that Council ratifies the First through the Fifth Ecumenical Councils, as well as the local councils at Carthage (AD 255), Ancyra (AD 315), Neocaesaria (AD 315), Gangra (AD 340), Antioch (AD 341), Laodicea (AD 364), Sardica (AD 347), Constantinople (AD 394), and Carthage (AD 419). When the Council at Laodicea specified the content of the bible as we know it — 39 years after the First Ecumenical Council (AD 325) and 17 years before the second Ecumenical Council (AD 381) — the Liturgy was pretty much well-defined and established and had been canonized by common usage — the reading from these books. It was not until the invention of the printing press in Western Europe, coinciding with the period of the Protestant Reformation of Western Christianity that The Bible was widely disseminated as a single volume.
When Protestant Western Christians reviewed the canonical books of Scripture, they adopted the Hebrew Canon accepted by the Jews since AD 100. — See The Books of the Old Testament
The so-called Apocrypha, or Deuterocanonical, books were a problem for Jews living after the time of Christ, since they often very clearly prophesy concerning Our Lord, and indicate His divinity. Some of the books were also problematic for both the Jews and the Protestants because they make prophetically evident the special role of the Theotokos in the oikonomia of salvation. In fact, the Orthodox Fathers cite passages quite effectively to discuss the Church's understanding of the role of the Theotokos. Also, the only scriptural reference to praying for the dead is found in a Deuterocanonical book: viz., Maccabees. Not surprisingly, these Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books were rejected from the canon of books indicated in the Jewish Scriptures. This canon was formally pronounced by a rabbinical council at Jamnia, which stated that all canonical Scripture had to have been written: in Palestine, in Hebrew (not Greek), and more then 400 years prior (300 BC) to that time.
In addition, the authorized Hebrew translation was at variance with the accepted Septuagint Greek versions, which had been prepared by 72 translators working in Alexandria Egypt. This is significant, because the Apostles, who were the authors of the New Testament, as well as the early Church Fathers, frequently cite passages only found in the Septuagint (Greek) Old Testament that have significant differences in meaning from the Hebrew. Moreover, they frequently cite passages from the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament.
The Holy Scriptures were produced by the Orthodox Church. The Church's holy prophets and Apostles wrote the books contained in the Bible. The Church determined which books were authoritative and belonged in Holy Scripture. The Church preserved and passed on the texts of these Scriptural books. According to tradition, the seventy-two Jewish rabbis and scholars who gave us the Septuagint Greek Old Testament, produced seventy-two identical Greek translations working independently and in insolation from one another. Writing in Greek, the Holy Apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude produced the books of the New Testament.
The Books of the Old Testament
When the Christian Church was formed, there was no recognised, official canon of Scriptures — the Jews were not a people of the book, they were a people of the Temple. When the Romans laid siege to Jerusalem, the Christians left the city because the results had been prophesied. When Jerusalem was taken and the Temple destroyed, the Jews — who already viewed the Christians suspiciously — now regarded them as traitors. Many blamed the Christians for their defeat by the Romans.
With the Temple destroyed, the Jewish religion had to be transformed. The bulk of the work was directed by the rabbinical school at Jamnia. This school standardised synagogue worship, which included expelling the Christians from the synagogues and adding curses against the Christians as part of the service. The school at Jamnia is most famous for determing which books were canonical. A Christian examining this needs to keep in mind that this determination was made in a virulently anti-Christian environment by Jews who hated the Christians. Even books which had widespread acceptance amongst Jews were suspect if they seemed to support the hated Christian sect. The school at Jamnia also rejected books which seemed to lack Hebraic origins (i.e. books which did not exist in Hebrew) and books that were overtly messianic (the rebellion against the Roman Empire was begun by Jews who thought a revolution would hasten the Messianic Age). Interestingly, the establishment of the Jewish feast of Hanukkah is found in 2 Maccabees 10:1-8. Although the Jews spurned the book, they continued to celebrate Hanuakkah — and do so to the present.
By this time (last decade of first century), the Christians were already predominantly Greek-speaking and were using the translation of the Old Testament books into the common Greek language done by the Jews in Alexandria in the third century B.C. This translation, now known as the Septuagint, is abbreviated as LXX, the Roman numeral for seventy, because there was a story that the translation was done by seventy translators who, although working separately, produced identical translations from the Hebrew to the Greek.
In this writer's opinion, no right-thinking Christian ought to think the first-century Christians should have followed that which was established by virulently anti-Christian rabbis — after these rabbis had already expelled the Christians from the synagogues. The historical fact is that the Christians continued to use the LXX and simply ignored the rabbinical decision. In fact, there was no challenge to using the books found in the LXX until the Protestant Revolution. At that point, Luther and others chose to follow the anti-Christian rabbinical teaching regarding which books were Scriptural instead of the unbroken practise of all Christians.
Old Testament Comparison Table
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/5654 ... books.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/5654 ... texts.html
dddddddd
Post #104You said no scripture to say one out of the 33,000 doctrines is right only.
Ephesians 4:5 says One Lord One Faith One Baptism.
One faith mean one faith of Christianity.
Romans 10 says faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
If the word of God is where faith comes from then we need correct information from the book called the bible.
If Paul say all the bible is inspired by God then it's what God has to say about the bible only not 33,000 intellectuals and philosophical people.
Coming from 2 Timothy 3:16.
Yes I'll repeat a lot of scripture if scripture covers an area of talk anytime.
I'm not into philosophical views of Christianity.
Peter not into it so I'm not into it.
Coming from 2 Peter 1:20-21.
Amos into unity and agreement with others so I am.
So is Paul.
Again coming from Amos 3:3 and yes 2 Corinthians 6:14-17.
Who really agreeing with the book?
That's what time it is not perfect and philosophical people.
If Proverbs say a good man fall 7 times then I'm not going to feel different.
If Proverbs says it's a way that seemeth right to a man but only destruction only then I'm not going to feel different still.
Again who agreeing with the book.
I didn't write any book in the book so it's not about agreeing with me.
Who know what time it is ? Agreeing with the book only or what?
We got an equal yoke for real equal yoking or what ? 2 Cor. 6:14-17.
I'm into being real not being philosophical about the book.
Ephesians 4:5 says One Lord One Faith One Baptism.
One faith mean one faith of Christianity.
Romans 10 says faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
If the word of God is where faith comes from then we need correct information from the book called the bible.
If Paul say all the bible is inspired by God then it's what God has to say about the bible only not 33,000 intellectuals and philosophical people.
Coming from 2 Timothy 3:16.
Yes I'll repeat a lot of scripture if scripture covers an area of talk anytime.
I'm not into philosophical views of Christianity.
Peter not into it so I'm not into it.
Coming from 2 Peter 1:20-21.
Amos into unity and agreement with others so I am.
So is Paul.
Again coming from Amos 3:3 and yes 2 Corinthians 6:14-17.
Who really agreeing with the book?
That's what time it is not perfect and philosophical people.
If Proverbs say a good man fall 7 times then I'm not going to feel different.
If Proverbs says it's a way that seemeth right to a man but only destruction only then I'm not going to feel different still.
Again who agreeing with the book.
I didn't write any book in the book so it's not about agreeing with me.
Who know what time it is ? Agreeing with the book only or what?
We got an equal yoke for real equal yoking or what ? 2 Cor. 6:14-17.
I'm into being real not being philosophical about the book.
micatala wrote:THis is a good point. It is worth remembering Romans chapter 14. There Paul talks about how both those who eat meat and those who choose not too can both be correct and in right standing with God. Believers of these differing practices should not judge each other. People can worship that same God and do so in different ways and both can be 'right.' Thus, the contention that the multiplicity of denominations is necessarily a problem, and that only one of them at most can be right, is certainly not supported by scripture.Biker wrote:Confused wrote:tonytony:
I am sorry, did any of your last post actually answer my questions? It still appears to me as if you are using the "True Christian" argument. But tell me, if the Holy Spirit will not allow any "believer" to misinterpret His meaning, then I have to ask again, why so many denominations? Which is the true one. Only Baptist?Because God did not dictate how one will "corporately" worship Him. All but a few denominations agree on the major tenants of the faith. Its not so much how as it is if.Confused wrote: Why so many denominations.
Biker
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Cathar1950
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Post #105
The reason there are so many denominations is simple, evolution.
Why are there so many plants and animals?
Change happens!
Why are there so many plants and animals?
Change happens!
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JoeyKnothead
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Post #106
This is a true story.
Here in my neck of the woods there was a church whose name escapes me now, but a small Christian church. For awhile there was a debate about whether God had planned everything, and knew how everything was going to happen. The other camp disagreed, and said that things play out as they play out, and there is no pre-ordered way for things to happen. The debate raged on, and there was much back and forth about the issue. This debate was particularly strong between two blood related brothers, and there was much discussion about who was right.
Then came the picnic.
As one brother was eating his fried chicken, his other came up and started the debate. (I paraphrase) "God knows everything that is to come, and it is all a part of his plan." Said the one brother, at which point the first brother threw his piece of fried chicken at the other brother and proudly claimed, "I bet he didn't know I was gonna do that!" Needless to say there was a huge fight, and the church actually split into two different churches.
There are now two churches up the road, both of which have the same name. Only one adds the number 1 (original) and the other the number 2.
So if I may correct the OP, you need to bump that number up by 1 more branch.
It just goes to show that even within one church there can be huge disagreement as to what is 'the true word'.
Here in my neck of the woods there was a church whose name escapes me now, but a small Christian church. For awhile there was a debate about whether God had planned everything, and knew how everything was going to happen. The other camp disagreed, and said that things play out as they play out, and there is no pre-ordered way for things to happen. The debate raged on, and there was much back and forth about the issue. This debate was particularly strong between two blood related brothers, and there was much discussion about who was right.
Then came the picnic.
As one brother was eating his fried chicken, his other came up and started the debate. (I paraphrase) "God knows everything that is to come, and it is all a part of his plan." Said the one brother, at which point the first brother threw his piece of fried chicken at the other brother and proudly claimed, "I bet he didn't know I was gonna do that!" Needless to say there was a huge fight, and the church actually split into two different churches.
There are now two churches up the road, both of which have the same name. Only one adds the number 1 (original) and the other the number 2.
So if I may correct the OP, you need to bump that number up by 1 more branch.
It just goes to show that even within one church there can be huge disagreement as to what is 'the true word'.
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JoeyKnothead
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Post #107
The names of the churches I mentioned above are Dewberry Baptist Church 1, and Dewberry Baptist Church 2. They are in the Gainesville/Cleveland area of Georgia.
