The Christian Response to Homosexuality

[micatala]

Many Christians consider homosexual practices to be immoral. The forum has multiple threads which include arguments as to whether or not homosexuality should be considered immoral, and even whether this position is supported Biblically.

In this thread, we will take it is a given that homosexuality is immoral.

Under this assumption, what should the response of Christians be to the existence of homosexuality? How should we interact with or treat persons who are homosexuals?

In terms of political society, what sort of laws should Christians support with respect to homosexuality? If there is to be unequal treatment of homosexuals under the law, what is the Biblical basis for this?


Again, arguments concerning the morality of homosexuality are not relevant to the thread. What is relevant is discussion of the possible Christian responses to homosexuality, and what valid rationale there are for these responses.

[melikio]

They are to be found in the New Testament. After all, this thread is: The Christian Response to Homosexuality. That, has already been prepared for us.

There are more responses than what you are implying. Others are aware of that, and I hope they respond in ways which reflect faith, hope, justice and (most of all) love (also components of a truly "Christian" response).

Bottom line (imho): Christians are fine to respond, but cannot take it upon themselves to impose their responses upon others.

Still, I am interested to see what more and different Christians have to say, where an actual response is concerned. Personally, if that "biblical" view which many claim to possess isn't translated into a real action, or something people can relate to, then they haven't said anything substantial.

I've personally expereinced far too many screwed up and evil people, who claim to be "Christians"; having control, influence and mistreating homosexual people in ways which could never be justified (especially in a biblical sense). And that is why I will discount the "responses" of those who are poised to basically recite the "Bible", rather than respond in love and compassion.

I don't see where the Bible says that homosexuals must accept even the unjust and goofy B.S. which so many Christians are willing to ingest, fueling a crowd-mentality that does far more harm than good.

So, if someone is so BOLD and DEMANDING as to say, "Show me your repentance.", I hope they don't mind when I ask to see their faith, hope, justice, compassion and love. After all, that's all "Christian" stuff too.

-Mel-

[melikio]

Mel wrote: 1. Homosexuality is wrong (particularly for purposes of this discussion).

Cathar responded: I am sorry Mel But I don't buy number 1: ...

Cathar, I understand.

I don't personally "buy" it either. But I wanted to honor the structure which the OP set into place.

At this point, I believe the argument needs to shift from the right/wrong of "homosexuality", to the greater moral question of how homosexual people might be treated by those "Christians" who oppose homosexuality and homosexual people. I think it's a real question.

For some people can go no further than to say that homosexuality is wrong; while not actually addressing what actions/attitudes are directed at homosexual people in the name of religion and God. I am waiting (as I did for many many years) to witness the "good" that so many Chrisitian people allude to, but so rarely seems to materialize when people wearing that "Christian" label are tested, as the topic of homosexuality tests many.

So, I'm eagerly waiting to hear:
1. "Christian" People sharing and explaining how and why they handle homosexuality the way they do.

2. Not much else.

After nearly 1800 posts on the main thread about homosexuality, I don't see why the same discussion must continue. People are aware of difference of worldview and opinion on the subject. And at this point I thought it would be GREAT if I could find a more practical (human) view of all these rules and doctrine so many claim to adhere to.

I know some aren't willing to have their faith tested, so all they can manage (earnestly) is to scream to the top of their lungs is that homosexuality it "wrong". Ok, for the purpose of moving on to something beyond that belief, thought or "truth", I won't argue that on this thread. And I won't generally tolerate that argument here from anyone else either; I will see it as being UNRELATED to the topic (as the OP suggests).

-Mel

[melikio]

My closest friend in Laguna is not much different than you. Homosexual and all. I live his pain and his joy. I still cry over the death of his partner. I cry for him. My wife is one of his best friends also. We have shared so many good times, fought so many corporate battles and deal with the bad things "together." You are not the only one Melikio with struggles, pain and issues to deal with. Sexuality after all is said and done, is really not much of what we are. It is just a part of what we are. Those that make it so much more than it needs to be are the ones that need to be watched and where caution needs to be employed. I'm sorry to say, but we both know of the extreme nature of Gay life and the extremes embraced within that environment, by the suffering of those with so many regrets. It can hurt so many people within in and without the gay lifestyle and community. Christians must not let emotionalism seep in where prudence should dwell, so that healing and life can both grow in abundance. (I will not relate to anyone else on this site but you in this way.)

1John, I WISH that I could buy into this "compassion" you seem to express; but I cannot trust that you really mean to convey this; I have little to no faith to believe in what you say is in/from your heart. I just feel safer not going there with you; I see it as thin-ice.

I've seen your responses to homosexuality and homosexual people. None I've known speak as you do about homosexuality, and haven't deep down actually HATED homosexual people. And a rare FEW have ever proven to me that they REALLY care like you say; most of what you have said at this site, just makes me think that you are lying to my face. Maybe you aren't, just maybe... you don't actually hate homosexual people, but I have no real way of knowing that, and the existing evidence is so stacked against me trusting you really mean what you say (or that it's not bait set in a trap, so you can bruise my heart at will).

Christians must not let emotionalism seep in where prudence should dwell, so that healing and life can both grow in abundance.

I know/believe that certain things are better left to God to handle. If I am to err, I WILL err on the side of compassion, grace and love; unless I've sworn or agreed to handle things some other way. As a "Christian", I haven't agreed with you or anyone else, to place grace and compassion behind other things. In that, I think, believe and know I am contending for a reasonable "faith" I can embrace and live by; rules and laws just leave me cold, and God knows it.

-Mel-

[Suzanne]

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The Gay Agenda and Gay Evangelicalism shows that gays and lesbians are NOT committed "in the sme way."

Is this truly related to the thread topic?

It is a Christian response to homosexuality. C'mon Mel, does the Gay Community have a desire to change? Not after five-thousand years of behavior. How Christians should deal with same-gender sexually attracted persons is to stand their ground on the behavior being unacceptable within the Christian Community and, like any other "kind" of person, Christians should ask that their environment not be harrassed. I see little difference in Gay Culture and any other non-Christian way of life. Christians should deal the same with same-gender sexuality as they do Hindus or Mormons. Stand firm and for the faith.

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They are indeed forcing Christians to be in subjugation of homosexuality and have implemented that by secular laws (so how can they be trusted?) and those that demand to teach and preach it as acceptable and celebrated within the Christian culture and community have no right or justification to do so. That is a major issue.

I don't agree; but it's an issue for another thread.

It is a reality facing Christians. It should be part of the response to homosexuality. "it" has no place within Christian morality. No different than adultery. Adulterers do not get positions of authority and when they are found out, they must be removed. There is a process for reconciliation but that doesn't happen by demands.

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No it is not the quest for power . . . it is defending Christian brothers and sisters from Satan.

The OP of this thread, assumes that homosexuality is "wrong", why are you being redundant?

Homosexuality is wrong for definate reasons to a Christian.

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There is much excitment to seeing the homosexuality community drawing near a form of Christianity.

I haven't noticed. But a different thread might cover that topic more readily.

I have been doing a lot of research out in the real world. Things don't look all that bad for reaching the lost. They are coming to the Church for a lot of reasons. It cannot be bad for gays and lesbians to consider Christ Jesus. Truth will never really be corrupted if God is really sought. There are absolutes to Christians that never change and never will. Never.

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The Gay Culture cannot survive intact in the Christian Community.

"Homosexuality" is synonymous with "The Gay Culture" (whatever that really is)?

Yes. The Gay Culture has its heroes and its history. In fact some very detailed history. Remmeber the Academy Awards? It wasn't all about some adulterers in a same-gender relationship. Truman Capote is a hero to many because of his sex life.

HE is no hero in my book and not so in many a book HERO'S TO a CHRISTIAN ARE those that STAND UP FOR what is RIGHT TO do as we live in this world we call life. and that RIGHT means TO DO WHAT GOD HAS said IS GOOD AND RIGHT TO DO> NOT what MEN SAY is GOOD when it is in REALITY A BAD and evil thing. IN other words calling GOOD EVIL and EVIL being called GOOD. this is what we see more and more I DO HOWEVER believe this TREND is making a turn around . and EVIL and WICKEDNESS is getting it's due reward more and more. that being JUDGMENT finally catching up to them and it. THANK GOD FOR THIS I do. GOD'S WILL is what will in the end PREVAIL NOT MAN's EVIL and WICKED LIVING ... I do not mean Muslim and islamic DICTORIAL LIVING either BUT the RIGHTEOUSNESS that can only be found and lived IN JESUS CHRIST !!! and HIS BAPTISM OF THE SPIRIT called the SECOND BIRTH.. It is a spiritual expierence that brings the awakings to many hearts and renews minds.. that those willing CHOOSING!!! HAVING EARS to hear and DO HEAR recieve BY FAITH HAVE. Having believed and confessed this JESUS CHRIST as the RISEN CHRISTonly begotten SON of God.as PREACHED WRITTEN OF AND TAUGHT from THE BEGINNING...

No evil wicked ways will ever overcome GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jesus Christ has already over come the world and saved it .. It is a CHOICE to RECIEVE THAT and THIS TRUTH> when that is done ON an and in an idividuals heart BY FAITH???? then and only then can one be CHANGEDE IN HEART and MIND. and their LIFE becomes a FREEDOM they have never known before. FOR TRUTH is this THE TRUTH OF GOD and HIS WORD will and does amke all men free that are willing to CHOOSE HIM and HIS right and nor man's wicked ways BUT the RIGHT and GOOD way of our Father in heaven.
DO NOT want the truth fine. INDIVIDUAL CHOICES!!!! GOD GIVES IT AND HE ALWAYS HAS AND ALWAYS WILL IT Is YOURS TO MAKE NONE CAN MAKE IT for YOU!!!!!! REMEMBER THAT and CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY!! IN WHO'S REPORT YOU will believe the REPORT THAT has already been WRITTEN, BUT the INSPIRED WORD OF GOD> and HIS WORD HE HAD WRITTEN LONG ago in that BOOK OF LIFE for us all.. or MANS WORDS THAT WE ALL know can and often are LIES from THAT DARKNESS THAT PERMEATS this world that CHRIST ALREADY CAME to save FAITH who has faith enough to believe and confess HIM TODAY THIS DAY the LORD GOD HAS given yopu to LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF YOU CANNOT believe that the LIFE YOU HAVE NOW and the AIR YOU BREATH is NOT OF GOD ALMIGHTY THEN HEAVEN and EARTH is CALLED AGAINST YOU THIS DAY . FOR THIS REALLY is the DAY GOD HAS given ALL OF US THAT LIVE NOW IN THIS DAY!!!!!!!! and TOMORROW IS IN GODS HAND NOT YOURS!!!!!!!!!!! all should really think about this TRUTH!!!!!!!!!! GOD HAS PROMISED believers of His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON LIFE IN ABUNDANCE AND ETERNAL LIFE WE AS BELIEVERS AND IN HIM BY FAITH?????? BELIEVE IN CHRIST being that only Begotten Son Of God whom IS RISEN being that LIGHT and WE pray CONTINUELY for HIS KINGDOM TO COME> and IT SHALL be done FOR GOD is FAITHFUL to DO what HE has PROMISED US. WE HAVE A BETTER HOPE and a PROMISE FOR TOMORROW what PROMISE do UNBELIEVERS HAVE???? NONE BUT THAT PROMISE of a SECOND DEATH!!!!!!! if they do not believe in that who gave that PROMISE IN the first place and in the BEGINNING.

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There will be many lost souls saved out of a lifestyle so far from holiness and brought into a walk with the Holiness of Christ Jesus.

So, a homosexual is absolutely associated with some arbitrary "lifestyle"? What is that lifestyle? I think those are interesting questions, that should be covered in different thread. Thread is about what Christians should be doing about homosexuality; you haven't offered much yet.

I am a Californian that has lived in LA and the San Francisco Bay Area. I have been to Chicago and know of what I speak. The Gay Culture and its little Pink triangles and Rainbows proclaim a Community and a Culture to its adherants. Christians need to open their eyes to what has been developed around them. It is not all bad but it has some dire consequences in store for Christians. Responding to homosexuality takes knowledge of what and who these people are. In fact, the hypenated aspect of "Gay-Americans" demands it. A Christian cannot respond to homosexuality unless they know what homosexuals believe of themselves. Their is a definate "identity" and you yourself detail it.

You keep saying homosexuality is "wrong", and no one (for the purposes of this thread) has disagreed with that.

In the Christian and Biblical aspect they cannot. This thread is one of the most brave I have seen to date.

I believe that there are great things to come of the interactions between Christians and the more open-minded Gays and Lesbians in positions of prominence in the Gay world, like Rosie O'Donnell. I don't know is real trust can ever be grasped but certainly authentic "tolerance" and not this quasi-tolerance we have now. No different than dealing with Muslims.

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Nothing shoud oppose that.

Any doctrine or philosophy is subject to questioning and/or opposition.

You ain't kidding. That is what Christians do. Test all things.

Every notion eventually gets examined in this reality. "Christians" don't have the truth residing soley in their pockets; reality is more than the view/s of an individual human being.

A Christian will allow someone to kill them without fighting back. The Voice of the Martyrs and Jesus Freaks .net has proof after proof. That is what "true" martyrs "do." You had better realize that Christians believe that they have the truth solely in their God, Christ Jesus. Christians will leave a Church to rot, rather than to worhip side by side with evil people. I believe that this Gay Evangelicalism is an attempt to destroy Christian Chuches from the inside. The delusion of anyone thinking that "Christian" is a builing is satanically derived. You are not a Christian if you believe in a "sort of" Christ Jesus.

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But, being wary and on-guard of the influence of Gay Culture must never ever be forgotten even for a moment by mature Christians.

What is "Gay Culture"? Is that what you believe is "homosexuality" as it is addressed in the topic?

Yes. It is what Christians are responding to. Individuals are individuals. Gays and lesbians exist in a community and culture that is defined quite well. No different than an Italian American. Christians need to respond to the what as much as the who.

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Well, if being a homosexual means I can't be in true contention for the "faith" or be saved by the blood of Jesus, then there is no hope for me in that particular "Christianity".

Your view here cannot be supported from the writings of Paul in the New Testament. He holds out a welcoming to homosexuals to a life in Christ after leaving their life of homosexuality. The other letters of the New Testament invite just as many people to become Christians. There is ONLY hope in Christ Jesus and the assurity of Promise.

How does a homosexual "leave" their sexual-orientation?

An adulterer is not supposed to stop? Porno addicts can keep the stuff around and use it AND be OK in a Church? Christians know all about behaviors that are right and behaviors that are wrong. What kind of Christians have you known? I haven't met one perfect one yet.

Or, what about those who cannot simply turn it off (just as you and most others cannot simply turn off their very human nature)? Spiritually, all things can change, but there is no guarantee that every "Christian" will be heterosexual, despite how devout they are.

OK. Where is that preaching that homosexuals or anyone else has got to never sin to "be" a Christians. The problem is that people in the gay culture have bought into the immutablity of their humanity. Sorry, Melikio, the Christian life isn't an easy walk. The burdens, the load of grief and guilt, lifted by Christ, are put back on by the Christian not Christ. We are supposed to help each other endlessly.

I was a Christian before I knew what "homosexual" was; as far as I'm concerned, you and no other Christian can really explain that to my heart.

I was not a Christian until I became one. I have many "ways" that I can't change even still. My wrongs do not make Christ Jesus wrong. Are you saying that homosexuality is somehow a bigger draw than what other people . . . non-homosexual experiencing people . . . seem to bear? Bah! It is all I can do to not screw up every day in many ways. As you can see easily I commit sins on these boards by basically calling people idiots and enjoying insulting them. I may do it in a somewhat sophisticated way, but I don't fool many people. Especially not you huh? What makes homosexuality any less a task to undertake to jettison? Are we not both working out our salvation? It is a guarantee yes, but the guilt makes it less enjoyable from timke to time.

That is equal to a near-lifetime of conflict that you really can't address, any better than a pre-schooler can address the universe.

Bull$@#&. I'll bet you are a far better person than I am. I am conflicted everyday to do all sorts of "wrong" things. I just about went off on some fool yesterday. You don't know or cannot believe how well I can fight physically or verbally. My faith in Christ keeps me from serving time for doing to some jerk what he deserves. We are no different in the conflicted issue.

You have no idea of where my heart has been or where it must go to deal with this "Christianity"; you should act like you know that (or really know it).

My closest friend in Laguna is not much different than you. Homosexual and all. I live his pain and his joy. I still cry over the death of his partner. I cry for him. My wife is one of his best friends also. We have shared so many good times, fought so many corporate battles and deal with the bad things "together." You are not the only one Melikio with struggles, pain and issues to deal with. Sexuality after all is said and done, is really not much of what we are. It is just a part of what we are. Those that make it so much more than it needs to be are the ones that need to be watched and where caution needs to be employed. I'm sorry to say, but we both know of the extreme nature of Gay life and the extremes embraced within that environment, by the suffering of those with so many regrets. It can hurt so many people within in and without the gay lifestyle and community. Christians must not let emotionalism seep in where prudence should dwell, so that healing and life can both grow in abundance. (I will not relate to anyone else on this site but you in this way.)

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Then again, can't answer for every heart/mind dealing with sin; and no, I don't know my own heart any better than God, and certainly no one participating here knows it better than I do.

Well said.

Doesn't matter as much that I said is "well"; it is something I know is "true".

Christ Jesus is the Creator. You and me. That is truth. You were not created for homosexuality any more than I was created for lascivious licentiousness, know matter the political correctness of the belief for both.

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On an individual basis. The Gay Community is just people, the Gay Culture is incompatible with Christians living for Christ Jesus as the New Testament would prove.

So, what should Christians do for, with and about homosexual people?

Ask them to not preach or teach its acceptability within the Church. Period.

What does the Bible support other than rejecting, hurting or killing them?

What? 1 Corinthians 6 a reminder? Stop with the martyrdom where it is inappropriate to apply the concept.

It seems to be forgotten (so often, and systematically) that they are human beings; loved by Jesus and shown the abundant grace which covers all who know they are sinners.

Doesn't the Spirit of God try to change us into examples of a Christ-like individual? No matter what the Gospels don't say, it is not appropriate to teach the acceptabilty of homosexuality. Not at all.

The double-whammy or morality placed upon homosexuals by many Christians, is more to bear than should be in many cases.

That makes no sense. "I" am a sinner every bit as much as you. I still have much growing "in Christ" to do. I don't see the need to demand that Christ or Christians allow me to stay where I am. If you your whole life "as" a homosexual, what difference is that to a Christian that has other sins they have trouble letting go? It seems that God will give anyone up to a reprobate mind that refuses Him. Not just those that celebrate same-gender sex.

So, I question the "justice" contained (or represented) within most of the "Christian" responses I've seen and experienced in this relatively short existence.

I am traveling and meeting and talking with many people. Especially youth. The ones that say: "That's so gay." And seem rather content in thinking that the "queers" in their schools can do what they want, but; are still, well, let's just say they have some not nice wordings. All of the man-made laws on earth are not going to change nature. Or natures God. And those kids were NOT Christians I talked to.

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It is darkness that cannot find light.

Are you assuming that God cannot find sinners (wherever they might happen to be)?

There are many people that reject God. Like it or not, God is not a puppet master.

Remember, some people cannot simply fix/change the reality that they are homosexually-oriented human beings. It doesn't make it "right", but it does address a real problem that "Christian" people (straight/gay) ultimately are charged to deal with humanely.

Only Christians that are called to be Evangelists or leaders and the many other positions that some "are called to." The rest of us do not have to do anything but worship our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus and pray for, care for and protect each other. It seems quite clear that not all Christians are called to, or are, in the position to have to do anything for anybody else.

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The Gay Community is welcomed in any Christ preaching Church holding salvation in no other Name.

No, they aren't. If they were, things wouldn't be as bad as they are.

You have believed the leftist/progressive/secualr lie about Christians and Christianity. I do not wish anything good happens to those people but that God removes their reprobate minds and heals them.

Have you ignore the fact that many Christians cannot accept "homosexuals", just because they happen to be homosexual?

What kind of Christians have you met? I have never known Christians you describe. I am firm on homosexuality but would never keep anyone from entering my Church. NOT even to harm us. I questioned a Pastor for clearing out his Church for a bomb threat. What kind of message was he teaching? Paul and Peter did not fear death. Stephen didn't run.

Now, you can ignore or play that down all you wish, but most closeted homosexual people aren't hiding their sexual-orientation, simply because they are ashamed of something. The "Christian" response to homosexuality needs to be reviewed extensively (just as I hope this thread will).

They should hide what they do not want to discard. There is a reason why Playboy magazines are hidden under other magazines when company comes over. I have lived a non-Christian life once. I have been an Alter Boy and I have been in the Choir, but please Mel, I am no saint. The "poor pitiful me" doesn't work for either confession or testimony in a Christian Church community.

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We agree (for the purposes of this topic) that homosexuality is "wrong".

And so does the entire Bible. "It" is one of many unacceptable practices.

More redundancy; the OP addresses the dead horse you like to beat here. It's debatable what the Bible says, but the rightness/wrongness of homosexuality isn't what's being discussed in this thread.

OK. I like agreeing with you sometimes.

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Mel wrote: Now, let's get on with describing (even to a societal level), what should be done for, with and about homosexual people (if anything). What does the Bible actually support, and how should Christians apply those teachings?

I think this sums up what I believe the topic is asking.

Evangelize the lost. Save sinners, snatching some out of the fire. That sums up how Christians should respond to homosexuality. "It" is an "it. People are people.

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Society is secular. On the Biblical level, the homosexual must take a position of membership within a well-founded and orthodox Church and only be offered leadership or authority over other Christians when clearly refutating (repenting of) homosexuality as a practice acceptable for Christians. Every Christian used to be a sinner and indeed never leaves that category as the flesh is weak.

Society is not completely "secular"; your statement is inaccurate.

Tell that to your clubmembers. The truth does not escape me on the matter, but last time I looked at the world around me, it was secularism that is the paradigm.

Nor are any churches in this world completely "spiritual". So, that leads to the real, unavoidable problem of "Christians" dealing with what isn't "easy" for them to deal with properly.

Ummm, have you ever read "The New Testament?" Bad Churches is a dominant theme. It is not easy rooting out evil. Look at the politics of the day?

Conversely, the struggles of those who have sin (homosexual orientations), cannot be played down and minimized.

And why not? What makes homosexual sex any more of a burden than reading that hidden Palyboy when no one is around? Jesus just about highlights that behavior!

It is rare that people can turn their human nature on/off like a switch; likely no one becomes sinless as a Christian.

No Christian celebrates sin or makes it a civil rights issue to keep doing them.

But the problems for those who are homosexual, are so negatively hyped by many that the burden is often unbearable (and the Campolo excerpts in my previous post, illustrate exactly what I'm pointing out in saying this).

Mrs. Campolo is embracing heresy. My friend in Laguna has told her that. I will tell her that if I should meet her. She is no hero of the faith Melikio. She needs prayer. She is wrong. Tony has not sold out his orthodoxy quite as easily as his wife.

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Is it the homosexualization of Christians and the Gospel, or the Christians changing homosexuals by the Gospel?

Why would one use the non-word "homosexualization"? And exactly how does this affect how Christians should respond to homosexuality?

Why would one use the non-words Gay Evangelicalism? There is no such thing. Unless of course it was to change the individual to what God intended for them.

You see, this "response" involves dealing with human beings in all the "positve" ways Jesus represented. Mere "knowledge" of the Bible doesn't guarantee the proper behavior of anyone (including those who consider themselves devout).

Jesus never changed sexuality. In fact He defined it very much only one way. Sorry Mrs. Campolo.

Actually it is a concept referred to as "love" which is most effective in promoting the ideas and ways of the Savior.

Is it love to preach heresy?

And this thread is important, because it will explore the actual things "Christians" should be doing, are not doing and are allowing overall, as it relates to homosexuality

They should be preaching the Gospel uncorrupted by political correctness and heresy. They are not challenging Christians that are embracing lies and preaching them. They are allowing people to go to hell overall, for the comfort of not being insulted by heretics and reprobates. As this realtes to homosexuality, the true Church is allowing the most evil and heretical messages be called out reach in dealing with homosexuality. Preach the undefiled Gospel and let the true God reach His own. Don't alter the message for liberalism in responding to homosexuality.

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This is a profound thread I'll agree with that.

And after people gather their thoughts to share them, I think some good answers will be found here.

They are to be found in the New Testament. After all, this thread is: The Christian Response to Homosexuality. That, has already been prepared for us.

[1John2_26]

Suzanne,

What point are you trying to make?

Preaching is not going to get it done on this website.

[1John2_26]

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My closest friend in Laguna is not much different than you. Homosexual and all. I live his pain and his joy. I still cry over the death of his partner. I cry for him. My wife is one of his best friends also. We have shared so many good times, fought so many corporate battles and deal with the bad things "together." You are not the only one Melikio with struggles, pain and issues to deal with. Sexuality after all is said and done, is really not much of what we are. It is just a part of what we are. Those that make it so much more than it needs to be are the ones that need to be watched and where caution needs to be employed. I'm sorry to say, but we both know of the extreme nature of Gay life and the extremes embraced within that environment, by the suffering of those with so many regrets. It can hurt so many people within in and without the gay lifestyle and community. Christians must not let emotionalism seep in where prudence should dwell, so that healing and life can both grow in abundance. (I will not relate to anyone else on this site but you in this way.)

1John, I WISH that I could buy into this "compassion" you seem to express; but I cannot trust that you really mean to convey this; I have little to no faith to believe in what you say is in/from your heart. I just feel safer not going there with you; I see it as thin-ice.

I'm cool with that. I rarely trust strangers. Actually only the ones that wear fire fighter and police uniforms for the most part. though, my theology is very sound.

I've seen your responses to homosexuality and homosexual people.

No you haven't. You seen me respond to anti-Christians. Sometimes mean and always analytically. You will always only "know me" on an internet debate site. You could a ninety-year old man in Walla Walla Washington with ten kids a fat wife and many dreams. This is just a debate site. Not altogether a bad site but certainly lacking a diverse viewpoint from memebership. Most are just petty anti-Christians with pat answers.

None I've known speak as you do about homosexuality, and haven't deep down actually HATED homosexual people.

Does the erm "knee-jerk liberal" ring a bell. The Education System has so mind-warped so many that anything that dissents from the paradigm of relativism is no longer tolerated by "the enlightened" ignorants of permissiveness. Christianity ain't gunna be celebrated by hedonists of MTV moral values.

And a rare FEW have ever proven to me that they REALLY care like you say; most of what you have said at this site, just makes me think that you are lying to my face.

Paul is a role model for me. As are Peter, Jude, James, John, and whoever wrote Hebrews. Matthew, Mark and Luke are also big on my list of cool guys. We all worship Christ Jesus. The consistency of the Gospel message is more important than your feelings or mine. Judge me by the New Testament writings. I will submit to that apologia every time.

Maybe you aren't, just maybe... you don't actually hate homosexual people, but I have no real way of knowing that, and the existing evidence is so stacked against me trusting you really mean what you say (or that it's not bait set in a trap, so you can bruise my heart at will).

No one that writes as I do hates anyone. I may be shocking in delivery but I have proven beyond the shadow of doubt (as well as can be in cyberspace) that I am contending for the Faith and the Saints. In real life too. If anyone does not want to be a Christians that is their right. When they attack us, I will defend against that attack. That IS The Christian Response to homosexuality. I challenge you or anyone else to prove my position is NOT supported by scripture and the New Testament handling of it.

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Christians must not let emotionalism seep in where prudence should dwell, so that healing and life can both grow in abundance.

I know/believe that certain things are better left to God to handle.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The message is being attacked and altered for very ominous reasons. Every Christian has to also believe that Satan is like a roaring lion trying to devour those from hearing.

The Book of Romans calls out to today and the issue of homosexuality as if it were written as an OP/ED piece to liberalism 2006:

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

If I am to err, I WILL err on the side of compassion, grace and love; unless I've sworn or agreed to handle things some other way.

Is it love in a liars mouth and heart?

As a "Christian", I haven't agreed with you or anyone else, to place grace and compassion behind other things. In that, I think, believe and know I am contending for a reasonable "faith" I can embrace and live by; rules and laws just leave me cold, and God knows it.

The above reference from Romans should help you see where love and lies may walk side by side BUT only for awhile. Love the sinner hate the sin is a Christian absolute. It is the personification of love. Once a person realizes that love sometimes tells you things you don't want to hear and still IS love unchanged; then embracing love in its true form will not indeed leave you cold at the end of the day.

Love is perfect. Certainly NOT a common human condition.

[Suzanne]

Suzanne,

What point are you trying to make?

Preaching is not going to get it done on this website.

DEBATEING GOD'S WORD OF TRUTH FROM the GOSPEL THAT HE HAS HAD WRITTEN LONG BEFORE YOU OR I WERE HERE.. IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE ANYONES MIND THAT HAVE NOT AND DO NOT HAVE EARS TO HEAR when it is TOLD AND SPOKEN and PREACHED TO THEM EITHER IS IT???

TRUTH IS IT IS WE who Know the truth of Revelation 7;9:-17:, & 22; 17:. BUT IT IS GOD THAT GIVES THE INCREASE. and IF they HAVE NOT BELIEVED IN THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD CALLED THE RISEN CHRIST JESUS!!!!! then THEY neither will believe IN THE TESTIMONIES OF those whom KNOW HIM Of HIS PROPHECY will they. THAT HE HAS said "HE IS COMINMG AGAIN and HIS REWARD will be with HIM ."

Maybe 1John 2_26: Just maybe you should also BELIEVE what THE SPIRIT OF GOD is TELLING YOU THIS DAY????????????

Unless you also do not believe in the PROMISE GIVEN BY JESUS CHRIST.
In John Ch. 8; 31:-36: ,, 14; 17:,,16; 8:-11:, Luke 20; 34:-40: 1Corinthians 6; 1:20:

TWO WITNESSES... The woman saw one at the head and one at the feet.

Sound familiar??? Or Is the messege NOT YET clear...

I do not believe that Either witness is better then another DO YOU???? BUT BOTH ARE believers and GIVE testimony OF HIM to those He brings before them ..

I have said I do not debate the word of God.. DID YOU NOT believe this TRUTH ???? ALONG with all others in here??????

I DO NOT lie about what I know to be a TRUTH when it comes to My LORD AND SAVIOR. DO YOU??? SO IN whom and BY whom are YOU and I both saved???????? IF YOU KNOW then tell me......OPENLY , HONESTLY and TRUTHFULLY. IN WHOM YOU HAVE believed IN BY FAITH .. IF YOU CANNOT.. I AM SORRY.. OK?????

[melikio]

Is it love in a liars mouth and heart?

That's for God to fathom, not for you to worry about and accuse others of being any more sinful than yourself.

There are DIFFERENT "Christian" responses to ALL things in this world; some don't want to consider that, but it needs to be (imho).

Love is perfect. Certainly NOT a common human condition.

And (Christian) "people" aren't perfect. That's exactly why they need to accept that posing to be God's "enforcers", is less than one degree from being a complete JOKE.

It makes sense to refer people to Jesus, but the ridiculous, religious grandstanding of some people, ultimately helps few if any.

So, what do others see as a truly "Christian" or moral response to homosexuality? (I already know where 1John is leaning... toward no REAL answers. His "interpretation of the Word, is what it is.)

-Mel-



-Mel-

[chachynga]

Easyrider,
Jesus is quoted in Matthew as saying, "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."(Matthew 5:18-20).

If the Law isn't meant to be followed anymore, like some Christians believe, then what did Jesus mean here? Why is it that so many Christians quote the Law to condemn homosexuals when they don't follow the rest of it? This is utterly hypocritical. Either follow it or don't. You can't just take the parts you like from it and ignore the rest if you believe that the Bible is written by Jesus/God.

Exactly correct.

The problem is that judeo-Christians are double minded by the facts their teachings are double minded, as the jews teachings are contrary to Christ and so the mix of leaven from the jews with that of Christ has Leavened the WHOLE LUMP as it were.

What people refuse to believe is the truth, because they cling to Some others or man's interpret summation of what the bible says instead of searching the matter out to see if it be true. Man decides instead, to settle for a lie that soothes his itchy ears. He ie man would rather worship the God of his imagination/hands than that as told in scripture, and therefore has to be double minded in so doing, as the God of the bible "DOES NOT CHANGE< FOR HE IS THE SAME YESTERDAY AND TODAY AND YEA, FOREVER" yet these judeo-Christians say that he does change.

The peopblem is this too: the preachers do allow this for Money and the people and specificly God's people, "Love to have it so".

The bible is in harmony, and if you think otherwise it is because your thinking is not correct and your reasoning is of man.

The scriptures do harmonize!

Got to study the law, God to work to place God first in all things.



And perhaps, the first lesson when we practice to walk is this, to :

Romans 2 17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?




Amos 8 11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

The hearing or understanding is lacking, as there are always many false prophets to fill the gaps where the True men of God fail to fill.



Hosea 4 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.



What is Knowledge? where is understanding?

Psalms
119 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.


Proverbs
4 5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. 17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul. 18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. 19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. 20 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. 21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. 22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. 23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. 24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. 25 Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee. 26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. 27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.


Proverbs
16 16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver! 17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.

[chachynga]

Also, in Jesus' New Covenant, is there any teaching about stoning people? We are under a New Covenant, aren't we?

So why then do people keep up with that ridiculous chant about Christians stoning gays? Are they just being hateful, or ill-informed?

The new covenant did nothing to over rule or abolish the Moral Laws and Just Judgement / execution of Gods laws.

You clearly need to go back and read the bible with a new prespective = truth of what it says instead of what you would like it to say to fit your unjust doctrines.

If you Love me, Keem My Fathers Commands.

Nothing new under the sun.


Isaiah
28 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.





Exodus
20 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


John
14 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Do you truly think God will Abode, with someone that is a law breaker, do you think God will allow LAWLESSNESS or a LAWLESS professing so called christian to be honored in his kingdom?



Listen to this:

John
14 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments, 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive



I Timothy
1 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;



To Punish the disobedient!




I Timothy
1 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;




II Timothy
2 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.



Do this for yourself, look up and study the term INIQUITY in Strong's!

There are free versions online!

here's a starter for you:

http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible ... hy_2.shtml



93 // adikia // adikia // ad-ee-kee'-ah //

from 94 ; TDNT - 1:153,22; n f

AV - unrighteousness 16, iniquity 6, unjust 2, wrong 1; 25

1) injustice, of a judge
2) unrighteousness of heart and life
3) a deed violating law and justice, act of unrighteousness