The Christian Response to Homosexuality

[micatala]

Many Christians consider homosexual practices to be immoral. The forum has multiple threads which include arguments as to whether or not homosexuality should be considered immoral, and even whether this position is supported Biblically.

In this thread, we will take it is a given that homosexuality is immoral.

Under this assumption, what should the response of Christians be to the existence of homosexuality? How should we interact with or treat persons who are homosexuals?

In terms of political society, what sort of laws should Christians support with respect to homosexuality? If there is to be unequal treatment of homosexuals under the law, what is the Biblical basis for this?


Again, arguments concerning the morality of homosexuality are not relevant to the thread. What is relevant is discussion of the possible Christian responses to homosexuality, and what valid rationale there are for these responses.

[melikio]

Is it the homosexualization of Christians and the Gospel, or the Christians changing homosexuals by the Gospel?

This thread isn't about "any" of these you prefer to highlight here.

I won't be so arrogant as to say that someone should start another "religion", but I will say that you can start another thread topic which covers that particular question.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

Quote:
Is it the homosexualization of Christians and the Gospel, or the Christians changing homosexuals by the Gospel?

This thread isn't about "any" of these you prefer to highlight here.

I won't be so arrogant as to say that someone should start another "religion", but I will say that you can start another thread topic which covers that particular question.

Mel, my question is in keeping with this thread topic and I dare say is almost the exact issue being dealt with within the Church and Gay Culture problem.

Think about it? Someone has to change their ways.

An orthodox conservative should seek a Pastoral position within that avenue of Christianity and, it should be as a Pastor preaching the Gospel and desiring to heve a church filled with homosexuals, atheists, adulterers, addicts, etc., etc., etc.. That is where the Truth will do the most good.



What else "is" the issue?

[melikio]

The Gay Agenda and Gay Evangelicalism shows that gays and lesbians are NOT committed "in the sme way."

Is this truly related to the thread topic?

They are indeed forcing Christians to be in subjugation of homosexuality and have implemented that by secular laws (so how can they be trusted?) and those that demand to teach and preach it as acceptable and celebrated within the Christian culture and community have no right or justification to do so. That is a major issue.

I don't agree; but it's an issue for another thread.

No it is not the quest for power . . . it is defending Christian brothers and sisters from Satan.

The OP of this thread, assumes that homosexuality is "wrong", why are you being redundant?

There is much excitment to seeing the homosexuality community drawing near a form of Christianity.

I haven't noticed. But a different thread might cover that topic more readily.

The Gay Culture cannot survive intact in the Christian Community.

"Homosexuality" is synonymous with "The Gay Culture" (whatever that really is)?

There will be many lost souls saved out of a lifestyle so far from holiness and brought into a walk with the Holiness of Christ Jesus.

So, a homosexual is absolutely associated with some arbitrary "lifestyle"? What is that lifestyle? I think those are interesting questions, that should be covered in different thread. Thread is about what Christians should be doing about homosexuality; you haven't offered much yet.

You keep saying homosexuality is "wrong", and no one (for the purposes of this thread) has disagreed with that.

Nothing shoud oppose that.

Any doctrine or philosophy is subject to questioning and/or opposition. Every notion eventually gets examined in this reality. "Christians" don't have the truth residing soley in their pockets; reality is more than the view/s of an individual human being.

But, being wary and on-guard of the influence of Gay Culture must never ever be forgotten even for a moment by mature Christians.

What is "Gay Culture"? Is that what you believe is "homosexuality" as it is addressed in the topic?

Well, if being a homosexual means I can't be in true contention for the "faith" or be saved by the blood of Jesus, then there is no hope for me in that particular "Christianity".

Your view here cannot be supported from the writings of Paul in the New Testament. He holds out a welcoming to homosexuals to a life in Christ after leaving their life of homosexuality. The other letters of the New Testament invite just as many people to become Christians. There is ONLY hope in Christ Jesus and the assurity of Promise.

How does a homosexual "leave" their sexual-orientation? Or, what about those who cannot simply turn it off (just as you and most others cannot simply turn off their very human nature)? Spiritually, all things can change, but there is no guarantee that every "Christian" will be heterosexual, despite how devout they are.

I was a Christian before I knew what "homosexual" was; as far as I'm concerned, you and no other Christian can really explain that to my heart. That is equal to a near-lifetime of conflict that you really can't address, any better than a pre-schooler can address the universe. You have no idea of where my heart has been or where it must go to deal with this "Christianity"; you should act like you know that (or really know it).

Then again, can't answer for every heart/mind dealing with sin; and no, I don't know my own heart any better than God, and certainly no one participating here knows it better than I do.

Well said.

Doesn't matter as much that I said is "well"; it is something I know is "true".

On an individual basis. The Gay Community is just people, the Gay Culture is incompatible with Christians living for Christ Jesus as the New Testament would prove.

So, what should Christians do for, with and about homosexual people? What does the Bible support other than rejecting, hurting or killing them? It seems to be forgotten (so often, and systematically) that they are human beings; loved by Jesus and shown the abundant grace which covers all who know they are sinners. The double-whammy or morality placed upon homosexuals by many Christians, is more to bear than should be in many cases.

So, I question the "justice" contained (or represented) within most of the "Christian" responses I've seen and experienced in this relatively short existence.

It is darkness that cannot find light.

Are you assuming that God cannot find sinners (wherever they might happen to be)? Remember, some people cannot simply fix/change the reality that they are homosexually-oriented human beings. It doesn't make it "right", but it does address a real problem that "Christian" people (straight/gay) ultimately are charged to deal with humanely.

The Gay Community is welcomed in any Christ preaching Church holding salvation in no other Name.

No, they aren't. If they were, things wouldn't be as bad as they are. Have you ignore the fact that many Christians cannot accept "homosexuals", just because they happen to be homosexual? Now, you can ignore or play that down all you wish, but most closeted homosexual people aren't hiding their sexual-orientation, simply because they are ashamed of something. The "Christian" response to homosexuality needs to be reviewed extensively (just as I hope this thread will).

Quote:
We agree (for the purposes of this topic) that homosexuality is "wrong".

And so does the entire Bible. "It" is one of many unacceptable practices.

More redundancy; the OP addresses the dead horse you like to beat here. It's debatable what the Bible says, but the rightness/wrongness of homosexuality isn't what's being discussed in this thread.

Mel wrote: Now, let's get on with describing (even to a societal level), what should be done for, with and about homosexual people (if anything). What does the Bible actually support, and how should Christians apply those teachings?

I think this sums up what I believe the topic is asking.

Society is secular. On the Biblical level, the homosexual must take a position of membership within a well-founded and orthodox Church and only be offered leadership or authority over other Christians when clearly refutating (repenting of) homosexuality as a practice acceptable for Christians. Every Christian used to be a sinner and indeed never leaves that category as the flesh is weak.

Society is not completely "secular"; your statement is inaccurate. Nor are any churches in this world completely "spiritual". So, that leads to the real, unavoidable problem of "Christians" dealing with what isn't "easy" for them to deal with properly. Conversely, the struggles of those who have sin (homosexual orientations), cannot be played down and minimized. It is rare that people can turn their human nature on/off like a switch; likely no one becomes sinless as a Christian. But the problems for those who are homosexual, are so negatively hyped by many that the burden is often unbearable (and the Campolo excerpts in my previous post, illustrate exactly what I'm pointing out in saying this).

Is it the homosexualization of Christians and the Gospel, or the Christians changing homosexuals by the Gospel?

Why would one use the non-word "homosexualization"? And exactly how does this affect how Christians should respond to homosexuality?

You see, this "response" involves dealing with human beings in all the "positve" ways Jesus represented. Mere "knowledge" of the Bible doesn't guarantee the proper behavior of anyone (including those who consider themselves devout). Actually it is a concept referred to as "love" which is most effective in promoting the ideas and ways of the Savior.

And this thread is important, because it will explore the actual things "Christians" should be doing, are not doing and are allowing overall, as it relates to homosexuality

This is a profound thread I'll agree with that.

And after people gather their thoughts to share them, I think some good answers will be found here.

-Mel-

[melikio]

Think about it? Someone has to change their ways.

The job of "Christians", is NOT to go around "changing" people; that is God's providence.

When the "Christian" response oversteps its authority, it breeds the type of contentions which I believe God never truly intended, and also distorts the meaning of "Christiantiy".

There is no substantial biblical support for forcing people to be good, moral or holy (by the definitions we approve); it just isn't there. And too many Christians today (and in the past) believe that people can be changed by religious force...etc. That isn't so, and never will be.

Love is not about having its own way; it appeals gently to the human heart. It is not a RAM that pushes its agenda through at any cost.

-Mel-

[Suzanne]

Many Christians consider homosexual practices to be immoral. The forum has multiple threads which include arguments as to whether or not homosexuality should be considered immoral, and even whether this position is supported Biblically.

In this thread, we will take it is a given that homosexuality is immoral.

Under this assumption, what should the response of Christians be to the existence of homosexuality? How should we interact with or treat persons who are homosexuals?

In terms of political society, what sort of laws should Christians support with respect to homosexuality? If there is to be unequal treatment of homosexuals under the law, what is the Biblical basis for this?


Again, arguments concerning the morality of homosexuality are not relevant to the thread. What is relevant is discussion of the possible Christian responses to homosexuality, and what valid rationale there are for these responses.

First of all Definition of HOMO- SEXUALITY is SAME SEX RELATIONS .

IF one agrees that GOD MADE man and woman , Male and female to have sexual relations and not SAME SEX relations then It is apparent that this is an abomination to OUR heavenly Father GOD Almighty. IT is UN-NATURAL and NOT THE WAY God created man and woman to become one Under r HIS WAY and GUIDENCE.. all that deny this truth do not want to accept what has already been written and the punishment that was given for this abomination in the OLD TESTAMENT as a LESSON FOR ALL OF THOSE THAT HAVE come after . Just as all the LESSONS OF OUR FATHERS BEFOERE US has and should be TEACHING US> YETNONE OF US HAVE LISTENED AT ALL and continue in doing all we have EVIDENCE AS TO WHAT is wrong and will bring GODS CURSES upon us . FOR to go against HIS NATURAL LAWS is to BRING CURSES UPON US. DESEASES SUCH AS syphilis, CLAMIDIA, HERPES, and all other SEXUAL RET LATED DESEASES should be warnings enough but apparently THESE SEXUAL RELATED deseases that in most cases will cause death to early and be passed on to another means nothing to those that ARE told about them.
The chooseing to have SEXUAL GRATIFICATION AT ANY COST is MORE IMPORTANT THEN the DESEASES and POSSIBLY EARLY DEATHS that can come from it or infecting others of the DESEASES they just may be careing. I just do not consider this haveing GOOD SENSE BUT hey as a BELIEVER ION MEDICAL EVIDENCE let alone knowing the TRUTH of WHAT has been written about this, LONE before any of us were here..
Now FOR how I interact with someone that I KNOW IS A HOMOSEXUAL AND is PRACTICING .. as a CHRISTIAN. I CAN BE SOICIALY CORGIAL to anyone. IF it is ACCEPTED. BUT do I have to agree with such a lifstyle absolutely not and I will not agree with anyone that says it is ok and has no REPERCUSSIONS from such a lifestyle. FOR WE whom are CHRISTIANS GOD'S WRITTEN WORD is ENOUGH and HIS DESTRUCTION of SODOM and GOMORRAH. THE CITY WAS FILLED with this PERVERSION OF what GOD HAD ORDAINED FOR MAN AND WOMAN. God no longer brongs FIRE DOWN from the heavens Only in and through the DIsputing of society, Deseases, death, and Not to mention the mental anguish for some that KNOW IN Their HEART it is wrong and find they just cannot give up the lifestyle.. BECAUSE THE SEXUAL LST of SATISFYING SEXUAL URGES FOR their own SEX OVERRIDES the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD ALMIGHTY and what HE has said and done ... Now before you call me UNFEELING and UNCARING and HOMOPHOBIC . ZEALOT OR UNRIGHTEOUS UNLOVING OF these. Think again. I have NO FEAR of HOMOSEXUALS MEN or WOMAN. LESBIANS, In truth I am sorry that they have nopt found within their hearts and minds to have UNDERSTANDING and STRENGTH TO just abstain from being a practicing UNNATURAL SEXUAL IMMORAL ACT.. IT is a TRUTH. GOD MADE Adam and EVE not Adam and STEVE.

I have RELATIVES that are of this PERSUASION TWO PRACTICING and ONE NOT.. THEY ALL know what MY SENTIMENTS ARE about their IMMORAL ACTS OF SODOMY. Yet it will never keep me frrom ever including them in any family function I would have and their partner would also be welcome..

THAT IS BECAUSE OF the FAMILY RELATIVE situation. OTHER THEN this I am just a pleasant hello how are you to others .. BUT ASSOCIATE closly with NONE RELATIVES NO. I am not obligated to associate CLOSLY with anyone that is not A son daughter, brother sister, or nieces and nephews. I CAN CARE ABOUT people that find themselves in this LIFESTYLE BUT I DO NOT HAVE TO AGREE WITH IT AT ALL, FOR ANYONE.

If someone that is LIVING this LIFESTYLE ACTIVLY can only blame themselves when they DIE from the DESEASES they have aquired because of the LIFESTYLE They have CHOSEN . JUST AS ANYONE THAT CHOOSES to NOT TAKE CARE OF their BODIES TO be HEALTHY.

and IN THAT I HAVE NO ROOM TO TALK.. because I am OVERWEIGHT and I NEED TO LOOSE some weight. NO BODIES FALT BUT MINE. IT is NOT MY mother or dad's fault nor my friends or anyone's FOR ALL I HAVE to do is CHANGE MY EATING HABITS. GET THAT WORD????? HABIT!!!!!! HABITS CAN be BROKEN IF we really CHOOSE TO BREAK THAT BAD HABIT THAT IS BAD FOR US. HVE TO REALLY WANT TO CEASE AND DECIST WITHIN ONES HEART FOR their own GOOD FIRST!!!!! Or in my Cigarett HABIT from the age of 14. I actually gave up those cancer sticks because the DR. told my husband he had to quit smoking I said I would quit if he would at least try. and that is what I did I quit. so did he for a while but went back to it I never did. Does that make me better then he NO.. I was just NOT going to let him have his way. He either did not want me to start smokiing again when he did or he was jealous because I was able to quit and he could not. I really am not sure what his purpose was. But he cussed me out and walked out with saying; "AND you just as well go back to smoking too.:" WELL no way would I have ever smoked again just because he believed i would.or THOUGHT I WOULD or prove to himself that i could not cease .

HIM being angry with me GAVE ME A BLESSING because I have never smoked since the last Cig was out of the pack I had open. and I ended up giving away the unopened pack that I kept on the shelf until I knew I was broken from the smoking habit. I THANK GOD ALMIGHTY for giving me the STRENGTH PERSEVERIENCE AND my STUBBORN PERSONALITY not to mention a HUSBAND THAT WAS APPARENTLY JEALOUS OF MY NOT SMOKING when HE COULD NOT QUIT. This was always a CONTENTION WITH ME FOR HIM. MY FAITH . and able to MAKE up my mind to do something and be able to hold to it. when I knew why I was doing it in the first place. IN THIS CASE it was BECAUSE of him to begin with. FOR I really enjoyed my smoking.

I did not tell this as a BRAGGING. I was trying to point out the HBITUAL HABITS people have. I COPULD LOOSE weight if I REALLY put MY MIND TO DO SO having just reason for me is not enough. to make me do without FRIED FOODS:):):):) and these are my craving and food choice!!!! CHOICE!! is the KEY word here. WE ALL HAVE TO MAKE CHOICES about things we do every day. GOD'S WAY, and what is GOOD FOR US or OUR WAY< AND WHAT IS NOT GOOD FOR US. I am guilty of doing the later in some things. yet the First in other things.

That is what I have to say on the subject Of How do I deal with HOMOSEXUAL AND LESBIANS. NONE will ever be able to tell me it is OK . and is not BAD FOR OUR HEALTH. anymore then I can say my eating habits are good for my health or anyone that is a drug addict or alcoholic. is good for anyone.all choices we all must make for or against.

[Suzanne]

The Gay Agenda and Gay Evangelicalism shows that gays and lesbians are NOT committed "in the sme way."

Is this truly related to the thread topic?

They are indeed forcing Christians to be in subjugation of homosexuality and have implemented that by secular laws (so how can they be trusted?) and those that demand to teach and preach it as acceptable and celebrated within the Christian culture and community have no right or justification to do so. That is a major issue.

I don't agree; but it's an issue for another thread.

No it is not the quest for power . . . it is defending Christian brothers and sisters from Satan.

The OP of this thread, assumes that homosexuality is "wrong", why are you being redundant?

There is much excitment to seeing the homosexuality community drawing near a form of Christianity.

I haven't noticed. But a different thread might cover that topic more readily.

The Gay Culture cannot survive intact in the Christian Community.

"Homosexuality" is synonymous with "The Gay Culture" (whatever that really is)?

There will be many lost souls saved out of a lifestyle so far from holiness and brought into a walk with the Holiness of Christ Jesus.

So, a homosexual is absolutely associated with some arbitrary "lifestyle"? What is that lifestyle? I think those are interesting questions, that should be covered in different thread. Thread is about what Christians should be doing about homosexuality; you haven't offered much yet.

You keep saying homosexuality is "wrong", and no one (for the purposes of this thread) has disagreed with that.

Nothing shoud oppose that.

Any doctrine or philosophy is subject to questioning and/or opposition. Every notion eventually gets examined in this reality. "Christians" don't have the truth residing soley in their pockets; reality is more than the view/s of an individual human being.

But, being wary and on-guard of the influence of Gay Culture must never ever be forgotten even for a moment by mature Christians.

What is "Gay Culture"? Is that what you believe is "homosexuality" as it is addressed in the topic?

Well, if being a homosexual means I can't be in true contention for the "faith" or be saved by the blood of Jesus, then there is no hope for me in that particular "Christianity".

Your view here cannot be supported from the writings of Paul in the New Testament. He holds out a welcoming to homosexuals to a life in Christ after leaving their life of homosexuality. The other letters of the New Testament invite just as many people to become Christians. There is ONLY hope in Christ Jesus and the assurity of Promise.

How does a homosexual "leave" their sexual-orientation? Or, what about those who cannot simply turn it off (just as you and most others cannot simply turn off their very human nature)? Spiritually, all things can change, but there is no guarantee that every "Christian" will be heterosexual, despite how devout they are.

I was a Christian before I knew what "homosexual" was; as far as I'm concerned, you and no other Christian can really explain that to my heart. That is equal to a near-lifetime of conflict that you really can't address, any better than a pre-schooler can address the universe. You have no idea of where my heart has been or where it must go to deal with this "Christianity"; you should act like you know that (or really know it).

Then again, can't answer for every heart/mind dealing with sin; and no, I don't know my own heart any better than God, and certainly no one participating here knows it better than I do.

Well said.

Doesn't matter as much that I said is "well"; it is something I know is "true".

On an individual basis. The Gay Community is just people, the Gay Culture is incompatible with Christians living for Christ Jesus as the New Testament would prove.

So, what should Christians do for, with and about homosexual people? What does the Bible support other than rejecting, hurting or killing them? It seems to be forgotten (so often, and systematically) that they are human beings; loved by Jesus and shown the abundant grace which covers all who know they are sinners. The double-whammy or morality placed upon homosexuals by many Christians, is more to bear than should be in many cases.

So, I question the "justice" contained (or represented) within most of the "Christian" responses I've seen and experienced in this relatively short existence.

It is darkness that cannot find light.

Are you assuming that God cannot find sinners (wherever they might happen to be)? Remember, some people cannot simply fix/change the reality that they are homosexually-oriented human beings. It doesn't make it "right", but it does address a real problem that "Christian" people (straight/gay) ultimately are charged to deal with humanely.

The Gay Community is welcomed in any Christ preaching Church holding salvation in no other Name.

No, they aren't. If they were, things wouldn't be as bad as they are. Have you ignore the fact that many Christians cannot accept "homosexuals", just because they happen to be homosexual? Now, you can ignore or play that down all you wish, but most closeted homosexual people aren't hiding their sexual-orientation, simply because they are ashamed of something. The "Christian" response to homosexuality needs to be reviewed extensively (just as I hope this thread will).

Quote:
We agree (for the purposes of this topic) that homosexuality is "wrong".

And so does the entire Bible. "It" is one of many unacceptable practices.

More redundancy; the OP addresses the dead horse you like to beat here. It's debatable what the Bible says, but the rightness/wrongness of homosexuality isn't what's being discussed in this thread.

Mel wrote: Now, let's get on with describing (even to a societal level), what should be done for, with and about homosexual people (if anything). What does the Bible actually support, and how should Christians apply those teachings?

I think this sums up what I believe the topic is asking.

Society is secular. On the Biblical level, the homosexual must take a position of membership within a well-founded and orthodox Church and only be offered leadership or authority over other Christians when clearly refutating (repenting of) homosexuality as a practice acceptable for Christians. Every Christian used to be a sinner and indeed never leaves that category as the flesh is weak.

Society is not completely "secular"; your statement is inaccurate. Nor are any churches in this world completely "spiritual". So, that leads to the real, unavoidable problem of "Christians" dealing with what isn't "easy" for them to deal with properly. Conversely, the struggles of those who have sin (homosexual orientations), cannot be played down and minimized. It is rare that people can turn their human nature on/off like a switch; likely no one becomes sinless as a Christian. But the problems for those who are homosexual, are so negatively hyped by many that the burden is often unbearable (and the Campolo excerpts in my previous post, illustrate exactly what I'm pointing out in saying this).

Is it the homosexualization of Christians and the Gospel, or the Christians changing homosexuals by the Gospel?

Why would one use the non-word "homosexualization"? And exactly how does this affect how Christians should respond to homosexuality?

You see, this "response" involves dealing with human beings in all the "positve" ways Jesus represented. Mere "knowledge" of the Bible doesn't guarantee the proper behavior of anyone (including those who consider themselves devout). Actually it is a concept referred to as "love" which is most effective in promoting the ideas and ways of the Savior.

And this thread is important, because it will explore the actual things "Christians" should be doing, are not doing and are allowing overall, as it relates to homosexuality

This is a profound thread I'll agree with that.

And after people gather their thoughts to share them, I think some good answers will be found here.

-Mel-

When it copmes right down to IT????? GOD IS AFTER LL THE FINAL JUDGE OF US ALL> and WE AS IT HAS ALREADY been SAID DONE AND TAUGHT> IN THAT BOOK HE HAD WRITTEN FOR ALL OF US MANKIND!!!

YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW!

Sow IMMORALITY AND UNNATURAL ACTS OF SEXUALITY AND YOU SHALL REAP GODS JUDGMENT FOR THAT DISOBEDIENCE AND INDISCRETION in the end.

Just as not eating healthy food in normal amounts will also REAP GOOD HEALTH and blessings of that. and believe me when I say I am not blessed fully in my health simply because of MY OWN CJOOSING to eat the way I do. so I reap what i sow. HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE, SWELLING and RETENTION OF FLUID, and FAR to many pounds that are neither good for my heart let alone for my body in general. CHOICE AND IT IS MINE AND I CAN BLAME NO ONE ELSE ..

RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!! . SOUND FAMILIAR TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR WRONG LIVING AND WRONG DOING AND WRONG ACTIONS???????? of which NONE WANT TO DO ANY MORE ABOUT ANYTHING> not even when they MUS DER someone anymore they PLEAD NOT GUILTY BECAUSE OF ANYTHING TO GET OFF OR SAVE Their LIFE WHEN IF YOU TAKE ANOTHER LIFE ON PURPOSE AND WILLINGLY THAT MEANS THE JUDGMENT IS TO BE DEATH. YES WITH TWO OR THREE WITNESSES. with all the FORENTHICS and TESTIMONY IF TOLD HONESTLY ON THE STAND thenJUSTICE would be done. BRIBES ARE PREVELENT < and DEALS MADE TO GIVE LIFE TO THOSE THAT ARE TO DIE and THOSE THAT DESERVE SENATANCES ARE KILLED AND GET DEATH,.

A man that KILLS A DFOG will get more time in jail NOW DAYS then one that KILS HIS CHILD AOR AS ABUSIVE TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING. our priorities are so messed up MAKES me wonder if we ever will get back on track without GOD'S INTERVENTION!!!! IT HAS ALREADY been proven that GOD AND HIS TRUTH means nothing to most now days. DOES IT????

no it does not in fact all that God has had written about what wouild come to pass is so prevelant today almost word for word. BUT FEW WANT TO FACE His words of truth .. I must say this thouf gh they will take notice when HE REVEALS HIMSELF AND HIS TRUTH ION WAYS that have not been believed would come to pass to begin with. FOR JUDGMENT ALWAYS comes. when it is HIS JUDGMENT. for He is faithful to what he has said about HIS JUSTICE..

[melikio]

Ok, now we know that homosexuality is "wrong", and that "God" is set to thrust many "homosexuals" into eternal punishment. Keeing ALL of that in mind, I think it would be helpful to move on to how "Chrisitians" should deal (practically) with homosexuality and homosexual people (neither of which are going to fade away and disappear from this reality.

So, the OP asked one of the BEST questions EVER; I think those who would be most adamant about "homosexuality really need to chime in soon, because most homosexuals would (and likely should) take that silence to mean that the things "Christians" generally DO to homosexuals are right and just; or even that enough to make things right/better is actually being done. I DO NOT think that is true in either case, but I am interested to see what "Christians" think should be done with BOTH homosexuality and homosexual people.

God has said some things (about how Christians might actually deal with sin/homosexuality) perhaps, but I'm interested to see what others think/believe those things may be. Even I (a homosexual man), can cut/paste my religious views and support them all day with various biblical verses; anyone typically can. But it would be interesting to see what people ACTUALLY DO as "Christians" when they (within themselves and outwardly project) decide to have an effect concerning homosexuality and homosexual people.

I can assure anyone, that this TOPIC is of interest to almost any homosexual who wonders how Christians deal with their "condition" or "sin". And because many Christians only know how to reflect fear, pain and hatred back at homosexual people, the world has a bigger problem than the homosexual people themselves. It's evident, but few are courageous or aware enough to actually address what many homosexuals and this very THREAD TOPIC is asking.

TO RECAP:

1. Homosexuality is wrong (particularly for purposes of this discussion).
2. The Bible can support an anti-gay position.
3. Homosexuals are not going to fade away, unless/until an new reality comes into being.
4. The question of how "Christians" might respond to homosexuality has been asked clearly and reasonably.

I have so much more to say, and I will in due time; but I do want to see what other perspectives may offer overall.

-Mel-

[Suzanne]

Ok, now we know that homosexuality is "wrong", and that "God" is set to thrust many "homosexuals" into eternal punishment. Keeing ALL of that in mind, I think it would be helpful to move on to how "Chrisitians" should deal (practically) with homosexuality and homosexual people (neither of which are going to fade away and disappear from this reality.

So, the OP asked one of the BEST questions EVER; I think those who would be most adamant about "homosexuality really need to chime in soon, because most homosexuals would (and likely should) take that silence to mean that the things "Christians" generally DO to homosexuals are right and just; or even that enough to make things right/better is actually being done. I DO NOT think that is true in either case, but I am interested to see what "Christians" think should be done with BOTH homosexuality and homosexual people.

God has said some things (about how Christians might actually deal with sin/homosexuality) perhaps, but I'm interested to see what others think/believe those things may be. Even I (a homosexual man), can cut/paste my religious views and support them all day with various biblical verses; anyone typically can. But it would be interesting to see what people ACTUALLY DO as "Christians" when they (within themselves and outwardly project) decide to have an effect concerning homosexuality and homosexual people.

I can assure anyone, that this TOPIC is of interest to almost any homosexual who wonders how Christians deal with their "condition" or "sin". And because many Christians only know how to reflect fear, pain and hatred back at homosexual people, the world has a bigger problem than the homosexual people themselves. It's evident, but few are courageous or aware enough to actually address what many homosexuals and this very THREAD TOPIC is asking.

TO RECAP:

1. Homosexuality is wrong (particularly for purposes of this discussion).
2. The Bible can support an anti-gay position.
3. Homosexuals are not going to fade away, unless/until an new reality comes into being.
4. The question of how "Christians" might respond to homosexuality has been asked clearly and reasonably.

I have so much more to say, and I will in due time; but I do want to see what other perspectives may offer overall.

-Mel-

SORRY I did not say ETERNAL JUDGMENT> what I said was WE GET JUDGED BY The DESEASES and the CURSING WE HAVE while here for what we end up doinmg that should not be doing. THERE is a DIFFERENCE>

THERE ARE BLESSINGS and CURSING ALL TOLD OF> I EAT TO MUIC H and sudffer health problems HOMOSEXUALS and ADULTERERS and MURDERERS do their thing and my thing and WE REAP what WE SOW>

[Cathar1950]

I am sorry Mel But I don't buy number 1:

1. Homosexuality is wrong (particularly for purposes of this discussion).

From the responses I don't think they are able to respond as humans.
I question their misinformation and bias.
Maybe it is time to burst some wineskins.

No it is not the quest for power . . . it is defending Christian brothers and sisters from Satan.

Here they have the nerve to identify people that disagree with them as satan. They stir up fear so they can pretend they are protecting Christians as they spread the slander.

The Gay Culture cannot survive intact in the Christian Community. There will be many lost souls saved out of a lifestyle so far from holiness and brought into a walk with the Holiness of Christ Jesus. Nothing shoud oppose that. But, being wary and on-guard of the influence of Gay Culture must never ever be forgotten even for a moment by mature Christians.

Here we have a threat as well as more fear mongering.
You are not going to get a Christian response you will only get a human response from people who call themselves Christians as anyone else has the right to do, Including you.
No one is trying to make anyone homosexual and for people to accuse others of this is just ludicrous. What I see is sheep acting like watch dogs in a human den without a threat. Someone needs to toss a shoe at the dog and tell them to lay down and let you sleep. Unless there is really a bear in the camp.
Good luck.

[1John2_26]

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The Gay Agenda and Gay Evangelicalism shows that gays and lesbians are NOT committed "in the sme way."

Is this truly related to the thread topic?

It is a Christian response to homosexuality. C'mon Mel, does the Gay Community have a desire to change? Not after five-thousand years of behavior. How Christians should deal with same-gender sexually attracted persons is to stand their ground on the behavior being unacceptable within the Christian Community and, like any other "kind" of person, Christians should ask that their environment not be harrassed. I see little difference in Gay Culture and any other non-Christian way of life. Christians should deal the same with same-gender sexuality as they do Hindus or Mormons. Stand firm and for the faith.

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They are indeed forcing Christians to be in subjugation of homosexuality and have implemented that by secular laws (so how can they be trusted?) and those that demand to teach and preach it as acceptable and celebrated within the Christian culture and community have no right or justification to do so. That is a major issue.

I don't agree; but it's an issue for another thread.

It is a reality facing Christians. It should be part of the response to homosexuality. "it" has no place within Christian morality. No different than adultery. Adulterers do not get positions of authority and when they are found out, they must be removed. There is a process for reconciliation but that doesn't happen by demands.

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No it is not the quest for power . . . it is defending Christian brothers and sisters from Satan.

The OP of this thread, assumes that homosexuality is "wrong", why are you being redundant?

Homosexuality is wrong for definate reasons to a Christian.

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There is much excitment to seeing the homosexuality community drawing near a form of Christianity.

I haven't noticed. But a different thread might cover that topic more readily.

I have been doing a lot of research out in the real world. Things don't look all that bad for reaching the lost. They are coming to the Church for a lot of reasons. It cannot be bad for gays and lesbians to consider Christ Jesus. Truth will never really be corrupted if God is really sought. There are absolutes to Christians that never change and never will. Never.

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The Gay Culture cannot survive intact in the Christian Community.

"Homosexuality" is synonymous with "The Gay Culture" (whatever that really is)?

Yes. The Gay Culture has its heroes and its history. In fact some very detailed history. Remmeber the Academy Awards? It wasn't all about some adulterers in a same-gender relationship. Truman Capote is a hero to many because of his sex life.

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There will be many lost souls saved out of a lifestyle so far from holiness and brought into a walk with the Holiness of Christ Jesus.

So, a homosexual is absolutely associated with some arbitrary "lifestyle"? What is that lifestyle? I think those are interesting questions, that should be covered in different thread. Thread is about what Christians should be doing about homosexuality; you haven't offered much yet.

I am a Californian that has lived in LA and the San Francisco Bay Area. I have been to Chicago and know of what I speak. The Gay Culture and its little Pink triangles and Rainbows proclaim a Community and a Culture to its adherants. Christians need to open their eyes to what has been developed around them. It is not all bad but it has some dire consequences in store for Christians. Responding to homosexuality takes knowledge of what and who these people are. In fact, the hypenated aspect of "Gay-Americans" demands it. A Christian cannot respond to homosexuality unless they know what homosexuals believe of themselves. Their is a definate "identity" and you yourself detail it.

You keep saying homosexuality is "wrong", and no one (for the purposes of this thread) has disagreed with that.

In the Christian and Biblical aspect they cannot. This thread is one of the most brave I have seen to date.

I believe that there are great things to come of the interactions between Christians and the more open-minded Gays and Lesbians in positions of prominence in the Gay world, like Rosie O'Donnell. I don't know is real trust can ever be grasped but certainly authentic "tolerance" and not this quasi-tolerance we have now. No different than dealing with Muslims.

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Nothing shoud oppose that.

Any doctrine or philosophy is subject to questioning and/or opposition.

You ain't kidding. That is what Christians do. Test all things.

Every notion eventually gets examined in this reality. "Christians" don't have the truth residing soley in their pockets; reality is more than the view/s of an individual human being.

A Christian will allow someone to kill them without fighting back. The Voice of the Martyrs and Jesus Freaks .net has proof after proof. That is what "true" martyrs "do." You had better realize that Christians believe that they have the truth solely in their God, Christ Jesus. Christians will leave a Church to rot, rather than to worhip side by side with evil people. I believe that this Gay Evangelicalism is an attempt to destroy Christian Chuches from the inside. The delusion of anyone thinking that "Christian" is a builing is satanically derived. You are not a Christian if you believe in a "sort of" Christ Jesus.

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But, being wary and on-guard of the influence of Gay Culture must never ever be forgotten even for a moment by mature Christians.

What is "Gay Culture"? Is that what you believe is "homosexuality" as it is addressed in the topic?

Yes. It is what Christians are responding to. Individuals are individuals. Gays and lesbians exist in a community and culture that is defined quite well. No different than an Italian American. Christians need to respond to the what as much as the who.

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Well, if being a homosexual means I can't be in true contention for the "faith" or be saved by the blood of Jesus, then there is no hope for me in that particular "Christianity".

Your view here cannot be supported from the writings of Paul in the New Testament. He holds out a welcoming to homosexuals to a life in Christ after leaving their life of homosexuality. The other letters of the New Testament invite just as many people to become Christians. There is ONLY hope in Christ Jesus and the assurity of Promise.

How does a homosexual "leave" their sexual-orientation?

An adulterer is not supposed to stop? Porno addicts can keep the stuff around and use it AND be OK in a Church? Christians know all about behaviors that are right and behaviors that are wrong. What kind of Christians have you known? I haven't met one perfect one yet.

Or, what about those who cannot simply turn it off (just as you and most others cannot simply turn off their very human nature)? Spiritually, all things can change, but there is no guarantee that every "Christian" will be heterosexual, despite how devout they are.

OK. Where is that preaching that homosexuals or anyone else has got to never sin to "be" a Christians. The problem is that people in the gay culture have bought into the immutablity of their humanity. Sorry, Melikio, the Christian life isn't an easy walk. The burdens, the load of grief and guilt, lifted by Christ, are put back on by the Christian not Christ. We are supposed to help each other endlessly.

I was a Christian before I knew what "homosexual" was; as far as I'm concerned, you and no other Christian can really explain that to my heart.

I was not a Christian until I became one. I have many "ways" that I can't change even still. My wrongs do not make Christ Jesus wrong. Are you saying that homosexuality is somehow a bigger draw than what other people . . . non-homosexual experiencing people . . . seem to bear? Bah! It is all I can do to not screw up every day in many ways. As you can see easily I commit sins on these boards by basically calling people idiots and enjoying insulting them. I may do it in a somewhat sophisticated way, but I don't fool many people. Especially not you huh? What makes homosexuality any less a task to undertake to jettison? Are we not both working out our salvation? It is a guarantee yes, but the guilt makes it less enjoyable from timke to time.

That is equal to a near-lifetime of conflict that you really can't address, any better than a pre-schooler can address the universe.

Bull$@#&. I'll bet you are a far better person than I am. I am conflicted everyday to do all sorts of "wrong" things. I just about went off on some fool yesterday. You don't know or cannot believe how well I can fight physically or verbally. My faith in Christ keeps me from serving time for doing to some jerk what he deserves. We are no different in the conflicted issue.

You have no idea of where my heart has been or where it must go to deal with this "Christianity"; you should act like you know that (or really know it).

My closest friend in Laguna is not much different than you. Homosexual and all. I live his pain and his joy. I still cry over the death of his partner. I cry for him. My wife is one of his best friends also. We have shared so many good times, fought so many corporate battles and deal with the bad things "together." You are not the only one Melikio with struggles, pain and issues to deal with. Sexuality after all is said and done, is really not much of what we are. It is just a part of what we are. Those that make it so much more than it needs to be are the ones that need to be watched and where caution needs to be employed. I'm sorry to say, but we both know of the extreme nature of Gay life and the extremes embraced within that environment, by the suffering of those with so many regrets. It can hurt so many people within in and without the gay lifestyle and community. Christians must not let emotionalism seep in where prudence should dwell, so that healing and life can both grow in abundance. (I will not relate to anyone else on this site but you in this way.)

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Then again, can't answer for every heart/mind dealing with sin; and no, I don't know my own heart any better than God, and certainly no one participating here knows it better than I do.

Well said.

Doesn't matter as much that I said is "well"; it is something I know is "true".

Christ Jesus is the Creator. You and me. That is truth. You were not created for homosexuality any more than I was created for lascivious licentiousness, know matter the political correctness of the belief for both.

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On an individual basis. The Gay Community is just people, the Gay Culture is incompatible with Christians living for Christ Jesus as the New Testament would prove.

So, what should Christians do for, with and about homosexual people?

Ask them to not preach or teach its acceptability within the Church. Period.

What does the Bible support other than rejecting, hurting or killing them?

What? 1 Corinthians 6 a reminder? Stop with the martyrdom where it is inappropriate to apply the concept.

It seems to be forgotten (so often, and systematically) that they are human beings; loved by Jesus and shown the abundant grace which covers all who know they are sinners.

Doesn't the Spirit of God try to change us into examples of a Christ-like individual? No matter what the Gospels don't say, it is not appropriate to teach the acceptabilty of homosexuality. Not at all.

The double-whammy or morality placed upon homosexuals by many Christians, is more to bear than should be in many cases.

That makes no sense. "I" am a sinner every bit as much as you. I still have much growing "in Christ" to do. I don't see the need to demand that Christ or Christians allow me to stay where I am. If you your whole life "as" a homosexual, what difference is that to a Christian that has other sins they have trouble letting go? It seems that God will give anyone up to a reprobate mind that refuses Him. Not just those that celebrate same-gender sex.

So, I question the "justice" contained (or represented) within most of the "Christian" responses I've seen and experienced in this relatively short existence.

I am traveling and meeting and talking with many people. Especially youth. The ones that say: "That's so gay." And seem rather content in thinking that the "queers" in their schools can do what they want, but; are still, well, let's just say they have some not nice wordings. All of the man-made laws on earth are not going to change nature. Or natures God. And those kids were NOT Christians I talked to.

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It is darkness that cannot find light.

Are you assuming that God cannot find sinners (wherever they might happen to be)?

There are many people that reject God. Like it or not, God is not a puppet master.

Remember, some people cannot simply fix/change the reality that they are homosexually-oriented human beings. It doesn't make it "right", but it does address a real problem that "Christian" people (straight/gay) ultimately are charged to deal with humanely.

Only Christians that are called to be Evangelists or leaders and the many other positions that some "are called to." The rest of us do not have to do anything but worship our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus and pray for, care for and protect each other. It seems quite clear that not all Christians are called to, or are, in the position to have to do anything for anybody else.

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The Gay Community is welcomed in any Christ preaching Church holding salvation in no other Name.

No, they aren't. If they were, things wouldn't be as bad as they are.

You have believed the leftist/progressive/secualr lie about Christians and Christianity. I do not wish anything good happens to those people but that God removes their reprobate minds and heals them.

Have you ignore the fact that many Christians cannot accept "homosexuals", just because they happen to be homosexual?

What kind of Christians have you met? I have never known Christians you describe. I am firm on homosexuality but would never keep anyone from entering my Church. NOT even to harm us. I questioned a Pastor for clearing out his Church for a bomb threat. What kind of message was he teaching? Paul and Peter did not fear death. Stephen didn't run.

Now, you can ignore or play that down all you wish, but most closeted homosexual people aren't hiding their sexual-orientation, simply because they are ashamed of something. The "Christian" response to homosexuality needs to be reviewed extensively (just as I hope this thread will).

They should hide what they do not want to discard. There is a reason why Playboy magazines are hidden under other magazines when company comes over. I have lived a non-Christian life once. I have been an Alter Boy and I have been in the Choir, but please Mel, I am no saint. The "poor pitiful me" doesn't work for either confession or testimony in a Christian Church community.

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We agree (for the purposes of this topic) that homosexuality is "wrong".

And so does the entire Bible. "It" is one of many unacceptable practices.

More redundancy; the OP addresses the dead horse you like to beat here. It's debatable what the Bible says, but the rightness/wrongness of homosexuality isn't what's being discussed in this thread.

OK. I like agreeing with you sometimes.

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Mel wrote: Now, let's get on with describing (even to a societal level), what should be done for, with and about homosexual people (if anything). What does the Bible actually support, and how should Christians apply those teachings?

I think this sums up what I believe the topic is asking.

Evangelize the lost. Save sinners, snatching some out of the fire. That sums up how Christians should respond to homosexuality. "It" is an "it. People are people.

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Society is secular. On the Biblical level, the homosexual must take a position of membership within a well-founded and orthodox Church and only be offered leadership or authority over other Christians when clearly refutating (repenting of) homosexuality as a practice acceptable for Christians. Every Christian used to be a sinner and indeed never leaves that category as the flesh is weak.

Society is not completely "secular"; your statement is inaccurate.

Tell that to your clubmembers. The truth does not escape me on the matter, but last time I looked at the world around me, it was secularism that is the paradigm.

Nor are any churches in this world completely "spiritual". So, that leads to the real, unavoidable problem of "Christians" dealing with what isn't "easy" for them to deal with properly.

Ummm, have you ever read "The New Testament?" Bad Churches is a dominant theme. It is not easy rooting out evil. Look at the politics of the day?

Conversely, the struggles of those who have sin (homosexual orientations), cannot be played down and minimized.

And why not? What makes homosexual sex any more of a burden than reading that hidden Palyboy when no one is around? Jesus just about highlights that behavior!

It is rare that people can turn their human nature on/off like a switch; likely no one becomes sinless as a Christian.

No Christian celebrates sin or makes it a civil rights issue to keep doing them.

But the problems for those who are homosexual, are so negatively hyped by many that the burden is often unbearable (and the Campolo excerpts in my previous post, illustrate exactly what I'm pointing out in saying this).

Mrs. Campolo is embracing heresy. My friend in Laguna has told her that. I will tell her that if I should meet her. She is no hero of the faith Melikio. She needs prayer. She is wrong. Tony has not sold out his orthodoxy quite as easily as his wife.

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Is it the homosexualization of Christians and the Gospel, or the Christians changing homosexuals by the Gospel?

Why would one use the non-word "homosexualization"? And exactly how does this affect how Christians should respond to homosexuality?

Why would one use the non-words Gay Evangelicalism? There is no such thing. Unless of course it was to change the individual to what God intended for them.

You see, this "response" involves dealing with human beings in all the "positve" ways Jesus represented. Mere "knowledge" of the Bible doesn't guarantee the proper behavior of anyone (including those who consider themselves devout).

Jesus never changed sexuality. In fact He defined it very much only one way. Sorry Mrs. Campolo.

Actually it is a concept referred to as "love" which is most effective in promoting the ideas and ways of the Savior.

Is it love to preach heresy?

And this thread is important, because it will explore the actual things "Christians" should be doing, are not doing and are allowing overall, as it relates to homosexuality

They should be preaching the Gospel uncorrupted by political correctness and heresy. They are not challenging Christians that are embracing lies and preaching them. They are allowing people to go to hell overall, for the comfort of not being insulted by heretics and reprobates. As this realtes to homosexuality, the true Church is allowing the most evil and heretical messages be called out reach in dealing with homosexuality. Preach the undefiled Gospel and let the true God reach His own. Don't alter the message for liberalism in responding to homosexuality.

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This is a profound thread I'll agree with that.

And after people gather their thoughts to share them, I think some good answers will be found here.

They are to be found in the New Testament. After all, this thread is: The Christian Response to Homosexuality. That, has already been prepared for us.