What really happened in the garden of Eden.

[mickiel]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

[Yahu]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I do have a few disagreements with your position.

First off nowhere is the serpent identified as HaSatan. As a matter of fact, 2 Pet 2 disagrees with this position. The pre-flood angels that sinned are in prison until they are let out during the tribulation to stand judgement. The serpent can't be Satan.

Second, the serpent never even appeared to Adam that we are told. Eve led Adam into error after she had already fallen into error. Isn't that typical? The woman falls into error then leads her husband into the same error so he can't condemn her for own failure. She already had her eyes opened to the evil she was doing. She didn't want to be alone in disobedience.

Woman led man into error, not Satan or 'the serpent'.

Yah didn't command the couple but commanded Adam. Adam then commanded his wife and told her not even to look at it. He expanded on Yah's actual law. The way the serpent got to her was in attacking the expansion that Adam added as wrong then got her to reject the entire commandment.

Another point. Eve wasn't named Eve until after the fall. She was just the feminine form of Adam, ie Adamah. In Hebrew Adam basically means dirt/soil while the feminine form is broader and means 'land'. It is the origins of the concept of 'mother earth'.

[dio9]

the garden story is bottom line about disruption from the original divine plan . It says God had intentions , like a father might have , wishing the best for Adam and waning against the danger lurking under the surface even in Eden . Hard as it may be to believe , there is a force in Eden driven by lack of love and everything associated with it . About approaching the greatest love there is the greatest danger, a tree of good and evil , and Adam fell under it's power. The desire for love appears to be a flaming sword for good or bad. The mysterious cause of suffering for the sons of man is the desire for love. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the cause of Jesus' suffering was lack of love.

[ttruscott]

My suppositions are based upon two contentions: 1. we had a pre-earth existence wherein we chose by our free will to rebel against GOD and become sinful in HIS sight. 2. we are sown into the world so that the sinful elect can have their eyes opened to their sinfulness and their need to repent and accept the promise of salvation, the skin coats.

First off nowhere is the serpent identified as HaSatan.

True but we could not be blamed for equating serpent and the dragon Rev 12, eh?

As a matter of fact, 2 Pet 2 disagrees with this position. The pre-flood angels that sinned are in prison until they are let out during the tribulation to stand judgement. The serpent can't be Satan.

Well, the reference to their prison could be a reference to the planet earth in total and chains of darkness would then refer to their total spiritual blindness to the truth. Earth is the prison filled with spiritually blind sinners with a rehab centre in it to heal those who are temporarily sinful from their addiction to sin.

The woman falls into error then leads her husband into the same error so he can't condemn her for own failure. She already had her eyes opened to the evil she was doing. She didn't want to be alone in disobedience.

A bit misogynistic methinks...it is the nature of sin to believe one is right when one is wrong. And the hint is that their eyes were opened at the same time

Then too there are the hints they were sinful before they ate: crafty (the serpent's sin) and naked being the same word; Eve was accepting the serpent as a mentor over the word of GOD which is a heavy nono in GOD's eyes before she ate and their seeing their nakedness and not their eating when their eyes were opened.

Adam was GOD's first and best creation...there is value to letting one have a free will but to allow the serpent access to them and then to not warn Adam what had happened to Eve does not seem to be the loving way to build a family, at all.

Woman led man into error, not Satan or 'the serpent'.

It is not necessary to accept he did not know of the serpent and Eve's debates about life and death theology nor that he did not realize she had broken the law but could have eaten himself out of a lack of trust in GOD (sinful already, remember) in leaving his friend to face the mercy of GOD by herself.

[ttruscott]

the garden story is bottom line about disruption from the original divine plan .

Could be but there is also nothing in the story that says that life on earth was not to be the healing of the divine plan which did not go so wrong as that it was fulfilled in a sad but not unexpected way when our free will was the method He chose to find HIS bride within creation. Christ was chosen as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world so at that time, HE knew of the possibility that some might use their free will recklessly and reject HIS promises.

From the pov of our pre-conception existence, the outcome of their eating is that they became aware of the truth (which they had been resisting) that they were naked, wretched and blind, and therefore in need of salvation which they received in the symbol of the skin coats. The serpent's depths of evil in trying to seduce Eve, his friend, even further from GOD is exposed to her so she now knows that GOD was right, the judgement is the only answer to his evil. All in all their garden experience was the best blessing GOD ever gave them in their long lives.

[dio9]

[Replying to ttruscott]

The idea that the God put us into an inferior divine plan is kind of Gnostic.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to ttruscott]

The idea that the God put us into an inferior divine plan is kind of Gnostic.

It is only you who thinks HIS plan was inferior and if it failed as you claim [the garden story is bottom line about disruption from the original divine plan.] it must have been inferior so are you now a gnostic?

I claim HE gave us free will and the plan was for us to each choose to accept HIM or reject him and that plan was fulfilled perfectly. It was also part of the free will plan to clean up after those who rejected HIM and that part of the plan is going perfectly also at the pace the sinful elect can manage.

You obviously don't know gnosticism, that the material is evil and eternal, nor my theology, to write this unless you are uncaring about the true facts... Is this your one big trick that shuts people up?

[dio9]

[Replying to ttruscott]

sorry but didn't you say the fall of Adam was not unexpected? That would mean God expected Adam's failure so as to heal this divine plan? It is hard for me to understand what you are saying. Heal God's divine plan?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 77 by dio9]

Personally I don't believe Adam expected Adam to fail. He of course knew that was a possibility having given him (Adam) the gift of free will, but Adam was given every advantage and there was not reason for God to expect such open rebellion.

I don't believe Jehovah always exercises his powers of foreknowledge for every individual all the time.


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[mickiel]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I do have a few disagreements with your position.

First off nowhere is the serpent identified as HaSatan. As a matter of fact, 2 Pet 2 disagrees with this position. The pre-flood angels that sinned are in prison until they are let out during the tribulation to stand judgement. The serpent can't be Satan.

Second, the serpent never even appeared to Adam that we are told. Eve led Adam into error after she had already fallen into error. Isn't that typical? The woman falls into error then leads her husband into the same error so he can't condemn her for own failure. She already had her eyes opened to the evil she was doing. She didn't want to be alone in disobedience.

Woman led man into error, not Satan or 'the serpent'.

Yah didn't command the couple but commanded Adam. Adam then commanded his wife and told her not even to look at it. He expanded on Yah's actual law. The way the serpent got to her was in attacking the expansion that Adam added as wrong then got her to reject the entire commandment.

Another point. Eve wasn't named Eve until after the fall. She was just the feminine form of Adam, ie Adamah. In Hebrew Adam basically means dirt/soil while the feminine form is broader and means 'land'. It is the origins of the concept of 'mother earth'.

In Gen. 3:1 a "Serpent" came to Adam and Eve , in Rev. 12:9 the devil is clearly called a serpent, I would like to see any other being in scripture called a serpent other than satan?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to ttruscott]

sorry but didn't you say the fall of Adam was not unexpected? That would mean God expected Adam's failure so as to heal this divine plan? It is hard for me to understand what you are saying. Heal God's divine plan?

I never said that nor is it true imhCo. When GOD gave us free will to accept HIS claims to deity and become HIS elect Bride, the necessity of allowing us the ability to reject HIS proposal had to be included or the choice was not by our free will but by a constraint upon our freedom to choose what we wanted.

By granting us free will, that is, the ability and opportunity to choose for ourselves by our free will to become perfectly holy or to become perfectly evil HE knew the POSSIBILITY that HIS plan that everyone would choose for HIM (and thus the heavenly marriage would start at that moment), might be thwarted by the misuse of their free will to reject HIM and this knowledge of the possibility indeed made it not entirely unexpected when it happened with the Satanic rebellion.

This plan had to be fixed when it got broken by the free will of the Satanic and the fix was to separate all those who accepted HIS claims to deity, HIS newly elect, out from among these Satanic tares in their heart so they could be judged and banished to the outer darkness as they had been warned. But this plan too failed when some of the elect rebelled against the damnation of their rebellious friends and these few elect become evil in HIS sight, needing the promise of salvation by the death of HIS Son to be fulfilled in them.

Their choice to be evil in HIS sight necessitated the postponement of the judgement day because, if the reprobate tares were then judged (rooted up), the sinful elect would also have been judged and damned (pulled up also). So by HIS commitment to HIS promise and to HIS loving nature that HE would damn no one who possibly might ever fulfill HIS glory and accept HIM as their GOD, HE postponed the day of judgment.

TO FIX this part of HIS plan wrecked by the mis-use of the free will of some few of HIS elect, HE has us live together to cure the sinful elect of their idolatry of the damned over HIS call to holiness by opening our eyes to our own evil and need for Christ and to the eternal nature of the evil of the reprobate tares as necessitating their banishment from all of created reality.

That HE knew of the possibility of this fall of some of HIS elect into idolatry is evident in HIS choosing HIS Son to be the Lamb (the 'fix') before the foundation of the world.