What really happened in the garden of Eden.

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Sun May 22, 2016 9:32 am

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Sun May 29, 2016 5:31 pm

mickiel wrote: There is no such thing as free will, that is a tainted corrupt Christian teaching. Nothing about humanity is perfect; nothing. There is no biblical sense that could make a sinful human perfect in the flesh.

Then Jesus is a liar and a fraud???

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Sun May 29, 2016 5:38 pm

ttruscott wrote:
mickiel wrote: There is no such thing as free will, that is a tainted corrupt Christian teaching. Nothing about humanity is perfect; nothing. There is no biblical sense that could make a sinful human perfect in the flesh.
Then Jesus is a liar and a fraud???

No Jesus is the standard bearer that you cannot see; Jesus said, " Father NOT my will, ( or free will), but THINE be done! Jesus NEVER taught free will in scripture, never! He taught that he came to do the will of God. In God we live, move and have our being, there is no room for the Christian deception of free will in that process. Christianity is the liar and the fraud.

For those interested, an extensive study on free will being deception;

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Sun May 29, 2016 5:59 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 48 by mickiel]

So then how do you explain

ROMANS 5:12
just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people

just as sin entered the world through one man, - which man was that? The first sinner in the world was the serpent who arrived in the garden with evil intent. The second sinner was Eve, first when she communed with the serpent as her mentor/pastor, second when she followed his lead, third when she ate and fourth when she enticed Adam.

The ONLY way Adam could have brought sin into the world is if he was a sinner when he was brought to the garden and put into his new body.

in this way death came to all people - death came to all people through his sin, not his sin came to everyone. Why did death come to everyone? It came because all sinned (the part you didn't include). All sinned, not all inherited Adam's sin.

Absolutely no one who had not been taught the orthodox version of our original inherited sin would read this verse this way! Orthodoxy was desperate to support the doctrine of our being created as perfect here on earth but born as sinners in rejection of our pre-earth existence and our original sin from that time by our free will. AND they were willing to blaspheme the holy loving GOD by suggesting HE created sinners by making us in Adam's race.

We are born as human to come under Adam's curse of death so by Christ's one death for all under Adam He could redeem us all and not have to die a billion times for each one of us individually. I don't remember if the federal headship of Adam is a JW doctrine but it is a doctrine that only applies to our being under the curse of death for our free will sin, not inherited sin.

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Mon May 30, 2016 1:49 pm

What really happened in the garden of Eden?

You know what, religion is messing the truth all up; like it always has. They have turned the gospel into junk bonds.

Literally every biblical subject has been perverted; and religion is pressing on with this incredible seduction daily.

They don't even know what they are doing.

Jesus asked God to forgive man for crucifying him, he said they don't know what they are doing. Religious believers were behind that crucifixion, just like they are behind the whole world being deceived;

men still don't know what they are doing;

they are crucifying the truth everyday!

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon May 30, 2016 3:42 pm

ttruscott wrote: I don't remember if the federal headship of Adam is a JW doctrine but it is a doctrine that only applies to our being under the curse of death for our free will sin, not inherited sin.

I'm afraid I can't really help you because I don't know what "the federal headship of Adam" as a docrtine means. We (Jehovah's Witnesses) do believe that all human alive today are the descendants of Adam if that helps.

JW

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Mon May 30, 2016 3:54 pm

The real events in Eden is described biblically again in Hebrews 9:26, " For then " Must" he have suffered since the foundation of the world." Again, this means the events in Eden, or the foundation of human civilization, was a " Must"; Jesus HAD to be paved a way to come to earth to die for all of human sins. Adam and Eve HAD to be sacrificed in Eden so Christ could be sacrificed at the place of the Skull.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Mon May 30, 2016 7:35 pm

mickiel wrote: The real events in Eden is described biblically again in Hebrews 9:26, " For then " Must" he have suffered since the foundation of the world." Again, this means the events in Eden, or the foundation of human civilization, was a " Must"; Jesus HAD to be paved a way to come to earth to die for all of human sins. Adam and Eve HAD to be sacrificed in Eden so Christ could be sacrificed at the place of the Skull.

Of course He must but NOT BECAUSE A&E were created evil and made to fall by the serpent, but

because every person made in the image of GOD who had chosen to become a sinner had to be born into the world so Christ could die for the sinful elect as He promised at the foundation of the world, the time of their getting the election promise.

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Mon May 30, 2016 7:42 pm

No one choose to become a sinner; human life is not a choice, none of us choose to be born , none of us choose to be sinners, this choice thingy is an religious illusion; its a religious " Need", they need to think this is all by choice.

But its a done deal of the century; salvation , like life and death, is not a choice; its a destiny.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Tue May 31, 2016 12:44 am

mickiel wrote: No one choose to become a sinner; human life is not a choice, none of us choose to be born , none of us choose to be sinners, this choice thingy is an religious illusion; its a religious " Need", they need to think this is all by choice.

But its a done deal of the century; salvation , like life and death, is not a choice; its a destiny.

Do you even read what I write??? I wrote about our earthly lives all being determined. But our time of choice was pre-earth - I will say again - all this happened pre-earth, pre- the creation of the physical universe. Perhaps this is so heterodox to you you can't believe I've said it but then your God making everything evil should be impossible to believe, eh? Of course we don't' have free will here on earth and everything is determined and we are enslaved to sin - until our slavery is cured and we are trained in righteousness.

My theology fills the same holes you see in orthodoxy but without any blasphemy to HIS loving holiness.

mickiel · Post by **mickiel** » Tue May 31, 2016 11:12 am

ttruscott wrote:
mickiel wrote: No one choose to become a sinner; human life is not a choice, none of us choose to be born , none of us choose to be sinners, this choice thingy is an religious illusion; its a religious " Need", they need to think this is all by choice.

But its a done deal of the century; salvation , like life and death, is not a choice; its a destiny.
Do you even read what I write??? I wrote about our earthly lives all being determined. But our time of choice was pre-earth - I will say again - all this happened pre-earth, pre- the creation of the physical universe. Perhaps this is so heterodox to you you can't believe I've said it but then your God making everything evil should be impossible to believe, eh? Of course we don't' have free will here on earth and everything is determined and we are enslaved to sin - until our slavery is cured and we are trained in righteousness.

My theology fills the same holes you see in orthodoxy but without any blasphemy to HIS loving holiness.

Do you think that what you write determines all things? Do you think once you have said something, nothingelse needs to be said? What you say does not matter to me, when will you see that? Your just another voice in the wind that I have to deal with.