What really happened in the garden of Eden.

[mickiel]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 38 by ttruscott]

Oh I see. Well I don't know enough about Hebrew to comment on that.

Thanks for explaining your point though.


JW

[mickiel]

I think if God wanted to create something perfect, then he could, but I also think it is simply unwise to call everything he created to be perfect, when it is not. Humans are not perfect, which would mean we are sinless. If the flesh was perfect, it would never die. Even the universe is in a state of decay. God created the devil and demons, and they are not perfect. And I have no need to make a scripture fit something that is not true.

I am not perfect, and God created me. I think that all the imperfection that God created, will one day become perfect, but it is not perfect now; common sense reveals that.

But, you know, when it comes to scripture, some of us just throw common sense away, in order to think ourselves as " Spiritual."

You seem to think being perfect only means incorruptible. It might also mean perfect for HIS purpose... which was a true marriage to HIS creation based upon our willingness to enter such a full PERFECT communion based upon free will which necessitated our being able to choose corruption. Our full perfection of incorruptibility will be reached at our resurrection, but we were NOT created already corrupted. We chose corruption by our free will.

There is no such thing as free will, that is a tainted corrupt Christian teaching. Nothing about humanity is perfect; nothing. There is no biblical sense that could make a sinful human perfect in the flesh.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 42 by mickiel]

So you don't believe the scripture in Deut 32:4 to be true? Or are you suggesting there is something that God cannot create and that is a perfect man and woman?

[mickiel]

[Replying to post 42 by mickiel]

So you don't believe the scripture in Deut 32:4 to be true? Or are you suggesting there is something that God cannot create and that is a perfect man and woman?

I just don't interpret scripture like you do. In Duet. 32:4, it says God's work is perfect, in my understanding that does not mean that everything he creates is perfect, or all animals would be perfect, all fish would be perfect, all grass would be perfect, all inscets would be perfect; by his work being perfect, it means the final results of his work. Because God is doing his work in stages.

God is creating perfect sons, but they are not perfect in all of their stages; no. To be born in sin, means to be created in imperfection. To be shaped by iniquity means to be molded by imperfection.

There is no such thing as what God cannot do, only what he will not do.

[JehovahsWitness]

There is no such thing as what God cannot do, only what he will not do.

And based on what do you conclude that God will not create anything initially in a perfect state? Based on what scriptural principle do you conclude God creates thing IMPERFECT and then progresses from imperfection to perfection?

[mickiel]

There is no such thing as what God cannot do, only what he will not do.

And based on what do you conclude that God will not create anything initially in a perfect state? Based on what scriptural principle do you conclude God creates thing IMPERFECT and then progresses from imperfection to perfection?

Based on these biblical principles;

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bib ... rn-in-Sin/

Why would God have us born into sin if he wanted us perfect at birth? In Jer. 10:23, " O Lord I know that the way of man is not in himself, it IS NOT in man that walks to direct his steps." Its not in us at birth, because God did not mean for it to be. The whole biblical principle of " Being born again", is based on being imperfect then evolving onto to perfection. Its academic.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 46 by mickiel]

Can you not grasp the idea that the first two humans were perfect but from the moment they sinned they became imperfect sinners and that all the children born to them inherited that imperfection?

Is this a concept you cannot begin to grasp?

[mickiel]

[Replying to post 46 by mickiel]

Can you not grasp the idea that the first two humans were perfect but from the moment they sinned they became imperfect sinners and that all the children born to them inherited that imperfection?

Is this a concept you cannot begin to grasp?

No, its a deceived concept. I reject it. Its the same deceived concept that teaches that satan was once good and perfect, then he sinned. No, Jesus said the devil was a liar from his conception. Once God creates perfection, it cannot go bad or devolve into imperfection. No angel, no heavenly being can turn evil. There is no such thing as perfection going to imperfection. That is like saying that God himself can turn into imperfection.

I don't grasp it, because I am not deceived by it.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 48 by mickiel]

So then how do you explain

ROMANS 5:12
just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people

[JehovahsWitness]

No angel, no heavenly being can turn evil.

Where is this in scripture?