What really happened in the garden of Eden.

[mickiel]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

[mickiel]

In Gen. 3:5, even satan knew that Adam and Eve were spiritually blind and dumb; their " Eyes were closed", meaning they were stupid and ignorant of far too many things in reality, where good and evil becomes a self responsibility. In Gen. 3:6, when Eve saw that " The tree was good for food and pleasant to the eyes", that is what she was supposed to see; that was no trick; it was truth!
The reason why Eve was in the forefront and Adam was following her, was because Eve was the " Leader", the stronger and more aggressive than Adam. We can know this because of the curse God placed on Eve, part of that curse was to make Eve ' Desire her husband", and be submissive to him. Which means BEFORE this curse, she DID NOT desire Adam and was NOT submissive to him!

If it were not for God's curse, females would have ruled over males in human history.

[Cewakiyelo]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

First I will address your first two paragraphs. You say that there is no evidence that God gave them His Spirit. Genesis

3:8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

Adam and Eve knew the Spirit of God that dwelt among them even to the extent that they recognized the sound of His approach to differentiate that sound from other sounds. They were naive to good and evil but they were not ignorant of God's presence. You say that they were not prepared. Yet, in paragraph 3 point out that God commanded them not to eat of the tree. He gave them a command not to eat, gave them a warning that if they do it will cause their death. This is called teaching. Just as a parent shows a child a bottle of poison explaining that it is not for them to consume or they will die. You said in later post

In Gen. 3:6, when Eve saw that " The tree was good for food and pleasant to the eyes", that is what she was supposed to see; that was no trick; it was truth!

It doesn't matter how pleasant the packaging is to the eye, if poison is in the bottle it is going to cause harm when consumed. Some children just have to find out the hard way the truth of what their parents have taught them. It does not mean they were not taught the truth. The Spirit of God was with them and did prepare them. They chose not to heed the warning. We see a similar event occur at the baptism of Jesus when the Spirit of God descends and then leads Jesus into the wilderness where he is then tempted by Satan. Likewise, we can see it happen with Moses. All of these from Adam to Jesus walked with God. God giving each instruction. Each left to their own free will to follow those instructions or do it their own way. Most ended up doing it their own way. Jesus chose to heed what the Spirit taught him.


As for the rest of your post... You point out that their eyes were not opened prior to eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were naive. This is true. They were created naive to what good and evil is. This does not mean they were dumb and could not understand the warning that had been given to them. It only means that they did not have a concept of what good and evil is. They had no need to know. It is not for them to judge. That is for God. You seem to feel that they received the knowledge of good and evil after consuming of that tree. That their eyes were opened because of it. Were they really opened??? Yes, when they ate the believed that they understood good and evil. However, was it a true knowledge of good and evil, or was it a delusion? The answer is in what they perceived after eating of that plant. They hear the approach of the Lord and hide themselves because they now perceive themselves to be naked and feel that it is shameful. That is to say, they now see being naked as something evil. However, God created them naked. Placed them in the garden naked just as all other creatures are naked. Naked is not evil it is good in the eye of God as that is how he created it to be. Yet, their perception is that naked is evil. In other words they now have a skewed perspective of what evil is. They feel they now have understanding of what good and evil is but it is a very faulty perspective, it is not a true one. It is like believing the hallucinations of an acid trip are true and real. The plant was poison to them and altered how they saw the world. Where they were given every need from the garden, only needing to wander the garden to have their needs met. After eating they felt they could do it without wandering the garden, could do it on their own. Where their work was once moving from food source to food source now it was hard labor turning the field, fighting nature (weeds, pests, lack of rain, etc.) in order to obtain their food. Their eyes were not opened, truth was not revealed. In reality it was veiled. A veil, caused by the poison of that plant, covers the eye of understanding that God's way makes more sense than their own way. A veil that makes them believe they know what is right and wrong and causes them to punish their children and hold others accountable when they are seen doing wrong, this according to the beholders eyes of understanding. Each person having a different perspective of what is good or evil and none of them being true. That plant has occluded our ability hear and recognize God's voice, now only hearing our own as being the one to follow.

Adam and Eve were naive to good and evil. They had no need for that knowledge. That did not mean they were spiritually blind. They were in the presence of the Lord. The Lord instructed them. He warned them. He taught them what to look out for. They chose not to listen. They were not spiritually blind, they knew what to lookout for yet they chose to close their eyes. They were spiritually ignorant choosing to ignore what they were taught by the Spirit.

[mickiel]

Well you have a need to blame Adam and Eve, so your religion can be supported. I hold no need to support any religious teachings, I just read what is there to read. Nowhere in Genesis , or the whole bible for that matter, does it teach or reveal that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for satan. Adam and Eve were so ignorant, they did not even know they were naked. God did not even take the time to teach them about clothes. God allow satan to see their nakedness, which is symbolic of them being set up by God to be embarrassed. How are you going to be teaching me things, and you don't even teach me I am naked?

God NEEDED them to be deceived so all of their generate would be deceived. It was a perfect " Set up for Christ to come."

[ttruscott]

Please consider:

Adam and Eve were naive to good and evil.

...or they were sinful already as shown by their being naked / crafty and not ashamed. When their eyes were opened to their sin they saw their nakedness, not their eating, and we all know there is nothing sinful about being unclothed as GOD made you in privacy with your spouse so seeing their nakedness as sin and becoming ashamed pretty well says it straight out - naked is a symbol for sin as in Rev 3:17.

As sinners they were not innocent and not naive.

They had no need for that knowledge.

GOD not protecting them from the serpent's guile is proof to me HE wanted them to learn the truth of the knowledge of THEIR OWN good and evil so they could be motivated by shame to seek redemption and to learn the truth about the knowledge of the good and evil of the serpent so they could see the foolishness of idolizing him, following him, another sinner, over their GOD's commands.

That did not mean they were spiritually blind.

Revelation 3:17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. teaches us that to be sinful / naked is to be blind to spiritual truths (not being able to tell a real pastor from a wolf in sheep's clothing) and also not realizing / not ashamed of their sin, a most common effect as people here know all about.

They were in the presence of the Lord. The Lord instructed them. He warned them. He taught them what to look out for. They chose not to listen. They were not spiritually blind, they knew what to lookout for yet they chose to close their eyes. They were spiritually ignorant choosing to ignore what they were taught by the Spirit.

Excuse me but I must point out that what you describe here is being a sinner enslaved by evil and unable to do good... not ignorance. They knew HIM very well and accepted HIM as GOD so an ignorant but righteous person would ask, "what should I do?" not presume to eat.

imCo

[ttruscott]

Adam and Eve were so ignorant, they did not even know they were naked. God did not even take the time to teach them about clothes.

Are you a Puritan that you think being unclothed as you were created and after being commanded to procreate is evil? Our bodies or seeing our bodies is evil? I thought that seeing naked as evil and not ashamed as ignorant and having sex as the first sin had been put to rest in the 1700s. This is one step from the Gnostic idea that all physical reality is evil and is probably the last vestiges of that blasphemy.

A word study of naked (Hebrew has two words: one is a synonym for being evil and the other is more straightforward as unclothed, nude), soiled, dirty, or ripped clothing, and fine white linen would seem to be in order.

Fine white linen is the righteous acts of the saints [Rev 19:8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.� (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)] so being soiled or naked means to be bereft of righteous acts to cover yourself, to be in your sins. It causes blindness to spiritual truths and to your own blindness, need for shame and accepting your sin.

God NEEDED them to be deceived so all of their generate would be deceived. It was a perfect " Set up for Christ to come."

I have never heard this anywhere else yet you repeat it so much I think you must believe it is GOD's special word to you.

Except it is not true that GOD needed Christ to die until after some of HIS elect chose to sin. Christ died to redeem His sheep gone stray (into sin)...IF no sheep went astray into sin, no death because of no need for redemption from sin.

GOD did not command Christ to die than go find some people for Him to die for...

[Cewakiyelo]

[Replying to post 24 by ttruscott]

Whether naked is now a symbol for sin is irrelevant to the story. The fact is that the story of Adam and Eve depicts them naked before God. God having created them to be naked being good and proper as He created. It was not until they disobeyed that they saw them selves as naked. We can say it was strictly due to disobedience but it is interesting that one thing they were told not to eat was that of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Whether, eating from that tree gave them an altered perspective or a truthful one is debatable. However, the obvious idea is that they had no knowledge of what good or evil was prior to consuming of that tree. If the tree did give a new found knowledge that they did not have prior we can ascertain the truth of the knowledge by comparing what they were created to be, naked and not ashamed, and what they then saw that they should be, ashamed of being naked. One is truth and one is a lie. The warning of the tree was that if they eat of it they would die. Yet the lived. Or did they? They had it all given freely in Eden. Then they had to struggle to eek out their living. They were with God and his instruction then they were alone. We know view salvation as eternal life while death is permanent separation from God. The tree of life may have been there for them to consume but then it was hidden. Their perception changed after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Because of disobedience the ground was cursed and Adam made to struggle. However, it was because they also received knowledge that they did not previously have that the tree of life was hidden from them so that they could not eat of it and live in that state forever. The sin brought hardship while the tree brought death by not having accesses to the tree of life. Why hide the tree of life if the knowledge acquired was true. It would make sense to hide if if the knowledge received was delusional and false.

Of course the story is not about the sin of eating. It is not about sin of being naked. The sin is disobedience. You mention the fact that God not protecting them from the serpent's guile... Protection comes through obedience. Obedience of God's word is what protects from the serpent's guile. Had they obeyed they would have never felt the shame of being naked before the Lord. They would have remained naive to good and evil as was intended for them in the first place. God gives His word as protection. If we choose not to obey we are saying we do not need that protection.

You mention

a sinner enslaved by evil and unable to do good

I do not buy into that notion. We have a choice. We choose one way or the other to obey or disobey. To be enslaved and unable to do anything else is to be without free will.

Our Free will:
- All spirits created in the image of GOD were created with the ability to make true free will decisions.
- All spirits had an equal ability to choose GOD or reject HIM.

You might recognize that quote. Yet the idea of being enslaved by evil and unable to do good suggests you don't really believe that quote. Either we have free will and we can choose good or evil or we do not have free will and nothing really matters as we have no choice but to do as we will. When I disobey I realize it is not because I was forced to do so. Temptation may be presented by the evil one but he can not make me succumb to that temptation. It is all on me. I have the Word of God, I know what has be taught, and when I do not heed His Word it is my choice to disobey. There is no "The devil made me do it" I choose one way or the other. The devil is not held accountable for our choices, we are. We might be forgiven for making the wrong choice but the stain of that choice rests upon us until that time.

[mickiel]

Adam and Eve were so ignorant, they did not even know they were naked. God did not even take the time to teach them about clothes.

Are you a Puritan that you think being unclothed as you were created and after being commanded to procreate is evil? Our bodies or seeing our bodies is evil? I thought that seeing naked as evil and not ashamed as ignorant and having sex as the first sin had been put to rest in the 1700s. This is one step from the Gnostic idea that all physical reality is evil and is probably the last vestiges of that blasphemy.

A word study of naked (Hebrew has two words: one is a synonym for being evil and the other is more straightforward as unclothed, nude), soiled, dirty, or ripped clothing, and fine white linen would seem to be in order.

Fine white linen is the righteous acts of the saints [Rev 19:8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.� (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)] so being soiled or naked means to be bereft of righteous acts to cover yourself, to be in your sins. It causes blindness to spiritual truths and to your own blindness, need for shame and accepting your sin.

God NEEDED them to be deceived so all of their generate would be deceived. It was a perfect " Set up for Christ to come."

I have never heard this anywhere else yet you repeat it so much I think you must believe it is GOD's special word to you.

Except it is not true that GOD needed Christ to die until after some of HIS elect chose to sin. Christ died to redeem His sheep gone stray (into sin)...IF no sheep went astray into sin, no death because of no need for redemption from sin.

GOD did not command Christ to die than go find some people for Him to die for...

I never said its evil to be naked, I said its stupid to be naked and not know it.

And I don't go for that " God special word for me crap"; I don't know God, and he does not communicate with me through words. I get my thoughts from the bible.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 27 by mickiel]

I agree to the extent that if it was evil to be naked, God wouldn't have created Adam and Eve naked. The fact is it wasn't God that first put clothes on them, Adam and Even clothed themselves after their sin. God created them naked and at no point did God tell them "For goodness sake, cover you dangly bits!"

So originally at least, the perfect state was... naked.

JW

[mickiel]

[Replying to post 27 by mickiel]

I agree to the extent that if it was evil to be naked, God wouldn't have created Adam and Eve naked. The fact is it wasn't God that first put clothes on them, Adam and Even clothed themselves after their sin. God created them naked and at no point did God tell them "For goodness sake, cover you dangly bits!"

So originally at least, the perfect state was... naked.

JW

Where humans are concerned, there is no such thing as a perfect state. Adam and Eve were never perfect; never!

I don't think God wanted a " Naked human civilization", I believe he would have eventually clothed Adam and Eve himself. He just had not got around to it. God did not want Eden to be a nudist camp. In his eyes, they were just naked babies. When you expose nude humans to the knowledge of good and evil, you are exposing them to lust and shame. That is why they clothed themselves. Its why I think they did.

[JehovahsWitness]

Where humans are concerned, there is no such thing as a perfect state. Adam and Eve were never perfect; never!

Deut 32 states that all God does is perfect, so when God creates ANYTHING he creates perfection. Thus Adam and Eve, at the moment they were created were perfect.

I don't think God wanted a " Naked human civilization"

Possibly not, we don't know for sure.

God did not want Eden to be a nudist camp.

The term "nudist camp" evokes the sordid and essentially immoral groups today that parade around without clothes under the delusional misconception that nuditity between adults and even in front of children (I think, I'm not sure if nudist camps go to far as to accept children) today is completely innocent and without sexual undertones. Comparing Adam and Eve's nakedness in Eden to "nudist camps" today is like comparing a McDonalds to... well, to real food.

One of the first things God did AFTER Adam and Eve sinned was to make appropriate clothes for them. He knew that their changed moral condition meant that their nakedness would no longer be innocent. And it's been the case ever since. This however does not negate the fact that originally God created Adam and Eve naked, Eve was naked when God presented her to her husband and the two continued naked even while God declared everything he had done "very good". That "everything" would have included two people happily getting on with their lives, naked.

I believe he would have eventually clothed Adam and Eve himself.

Possibly or, given humans endless capacity to be creative someone sooner or later would have invented clothes themselves. (After all God could have invented names for the animals himself, but he left that privilege to Adam, not because he (God) couldn't do it himself, but he knew humans need to be creative to be happy. So maybe God would have simply let things run their course and clothes would have been a natural progression).

Given that we are essential sexual creatures that our first parent's nakedness would have only been appropriate untill they had children, but in any case, their initial nakedness was in no way "evil" "dirty" or "bad" since their naked state was how God created them and presented them to each other without any command to clothe. In short, if clothes were part of God's plan, it certainly wasn't that they came about under such tragic circumstances.

When you expose nude humans to the knowledge of good and evil, you are exposing them to lust and shame. That is why they clothed themselves. Its why I think they did.

I don't disagree with you. However we must bear in mind that God NEVER wanted Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He warned them not to touch it. So God never wanted them to change from the innocent blishful state they were created in, to feeling "lust and shame".

Maybe if they had never sinned and eaten of the fruit, there would have never been any need for clothes. Maybe if they had never sinnned and eaten there would have been a need for clothes. We just don''t know. What we do know is, that if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten from the tree they were told not to, we would all probably still be in paradise; and that is the real tragedy of the story.

Well that and the mankini.*


JEHOVAHS WITNESS


* If you don't know what a mankini is you can google it, but be warned - you can't UN-see something once seen.